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Too many SMG's and Semi-auto?

Too many SMG's and Semi-auto?

  • Yes, it's a problem

    Votes: 294 54.3%
  • No, it's realistic, STFU

    Votes: 141 26.1%
  • Too many SMG's, Semi are fine.

    Votes: 67 12.4%
  • Too many semis, SMG's are fine.

    Votes: 39 7.2%

  • Total voters
    541
SMG's were massively used in Stalingrad, especially by the Russians.

No, they where only "massively used" by WWII standards, and that's a very low standard.

The SMG was not a normal weapon durring WWII, it was sometimes carried by squad leaders, and a few assault troops, they probably made up no more than 10 to 15% of the Wehrmacht, and around 15 to 20% of the Red Army. The bolt-action rifle was the mainstay of both armies, and by quite a margin.

So the fact that "SMG's where more common in Stalingrad than elsewhere" does not mean that half the team should be getting them, that's just not a realistic ratio.

I for one don't see a problem, historically speaking, about loadouts.
Atleast the Russians had whole regiments armed with PPSh's.

They only had a couple of thouse in around mid 1943 as experimental assault regiments, and even if one of thouse where deployed to Stalingrad, that'd still just be a drop in the ocean compared to all the riflemen deployed there.

It wasen't untill late 1944 and 45 that the assault regiments became a thing, so to say, so that's well past Stalingrad, and still, they only made up a small percentage of the Russian forces when the war ended, they where not the bread and butter of the Red Army by any means.
 
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No, they where only "massively used" by WWII standards, and that's a very low standard.

The SMG was not a normal weapon durring WWII, it was sometimes carried by squad leaders, and a few assault troops, they probably made up no more than 10 to 15% of the Wehrmacht, and around 15 to 20% of the Red Army. The bolt-action rifle was the mainstay of both armies, and by quite a margin.

So the fact that "SMG's where more common in Stalingrad than elsewhere" does not mean that half the team should be getting them, that's just not a realistic ratio.



They only had a couple of thouse in around mid 1943 as experimental assault regiments, and even if one of thouse where deployed to Stalingrad, that'd still just be a drop in the ocean compared to all the riflemen deployed there.

It wasen't untill late 1944 and 45 that the assault regiments became a thing, so to say, so that's well past Stalingrad, and still, they only made up a small percentage of the Russian forces when the war ended, they where not the bread and butter of the Red Army by any means.



First of all, Stalingrad was different from all previous battles.
Chuikov "invented" Assault groups:


From the end of September Chuikov encouraged the regiments to form "storm groups" (i.e assault units) (Chuikov, 1963). It was these storm groups which formed the basis of the Soviet counter-attacks. They infiltrated between German positions, slipped into enemy held buildings, took them by assault, then entrenched to repulse the inevitable German counter-attack. Where possible a storm group would get within grenade throwing range (say 30 m) before launching their attack.
The composition of each storm group depended on available resources and the specific situations, but they were usually based on a platoon of infantry (20-50 men), supported by two or three guns, one or two squads of sappers and chemical warfare men, and possibly tanks (Chuikov, 1963). Storm groups, particularly once the Germans were entrenched in the city, were often supported by larger detachments. For example, the attack on the Railwaymen's House had three storm groups of 6-8 men each, supported by 82 other men.
The storm group was divided into assault group(s), reinforcement group(s), and reserve group(s) (Chuikov, 1963):

  • Assault group(s): Their job was to break in and take the building. Each assault group had 6-8 men with with sub-machine-guns, 5-12 grenades each ('pocket artillery'), knives and sharpened spades; collectively these were always under a single commander.
  • Reinforcement group(s): Once the commander of the assault groups signalled "We're in", the reinforcement groups would move in from different directions. Once inside they would capture firing positions, set up, then block any attempted enemy interference from outside. Given their role this group had machine guns, sub-machine guns, mortars, anti-tank rifles and guns, crow-bars, picks and explosives. They often included sappers and snipers. The reinforcement group(s) came under the command of the commander of the storm group. The machine gunners, anti-tank riflemen and mortar gunners entered the building first. Their assistants followed with ammunition and food for one day. The men occupied the centre and upper floors to cover the approaches to the building. Once established they occupied further firing points in front of and on the flanks of the building. When the building was in their possession they entrenched, adapted existing fortifications, built new ones, and dug communication trenches.
  • Reserve group(s): These formed the basis of new assault groups, prevented enemy attacks from the flanks, and if necessary, blocked any counter-attacks.
Assaults were often conducted without a preliminary bombardment, the element of surprise being considered paramount (Chuikov, 1963). On the other hand, infantry guns and tanks - previously moved into hidden positions - were used at point blank range to destroy enemy posts. Chuikov describes how an storm group form the 45th Rifle Division (Sokolov) lugged a 122mm howitzer piecemeal into the Red October factory, assembled it, then blasted a breach into the area controlled by the Germans. Similarly the 39th Guards Rifle Division used a 203mm guns in the direct fire mode in the fighting at the Red October factory; in this case the range was 200-300 m. Anti-tank incendiary shells from the 45mm anti-tank gun were used to destroy simple German fortifications in buildings.

References

Beevor, A. (1999). Stalingrad. Penguin.
Chuikov, V. I. (1963). The Beginning of the Road: The story for the Battle for Stalingrad. Macgibbon and Kee.
Clark, A. (1965). Barbarossa. Cassell.
Erickson, J. (1993). The Road to Stalingrad: Stalin's war with Germany: Volume One. London: Weidenfeld.





Mark the bolded parts. And in this last bit is about the 45th Rifle Division (which didn't just have rifles...)
 
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I agree that a unit was equipped primarely with rifles. But also used to have 2 MG's for support. Plus nco's and officers used mp40's. In the end whole units got MP44's. Or whole units, mostly Volkssturm recieved along with their Kar98, Panzerfausts for everyone. Is that realism? Yes, since there were more Russian tanks coming then there were Panzerfausts for it.
 
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Well, it's a good 53% agreeing there's too many SMG's and Semi.
A good 67% agreeing there's too many SMG's. (yeah, that's 53+14, do the maths)
A good 60% agreeing there's too many Semis. (same "trick")

Finally 25% think everything's alright.


Hopefully we'll have someday mutators to fix this.
Or maybe TWI will change it, though i rather doubt it.
 
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Well, it's a good 53% agreeing there's too many SMG's and Semi.
A good 67% agreeing there's too many SMG's. (yeah, that's 53+14, do the maths)
A good 60% agreeing there's too many Semis. (same "trick")

Finally 25% think everything's alright.


Hopefully we'll have someday mutators to fix this.
Or maybe TWI will change it, though i rather doubt it.


Ok, only joking in this post. So don't (I repeat: DO NOT) take this seriously AT ALL.

There was no democracy in WW2 concerning group/weapon composition... ;)


P.S. What next? Too many grenades..?
 
Upvote 0
First of all, Stalingrad was different from all previous battles.
Chuikov "invented" Assault groups:


From the end of September Chuikov encouraged the regiments to form "storm groups" (i.e assault units) (Chuikov, 1963). It was these storm groups which formed the basis of the Soviet counter-attacks. They infiltrated between German positions, slipped into enemy held buildings, took them by assault, then entrenched to repulse the inevitable German counter-attack. Where possible a storm group would get within grenade throwing range (say 30 m) before launching their attack.
The composition of each storm group depended on available resources and the specific situations, but they were usually based on a platoon of infantry (20-50 men), supported by two or three guns, one or two squads of sappers and chemical warfare men, and possibly tanks (Chuikov, 1963). Storm groups, particularly once the Germans were entrenched in the city, were often supported by larger detachments. For example, the attack on the Railwaymen's House had three storm groups of 6-8 men each, supported by 82 other men.
The storm group was divided into assault group(s), reinforcement group(s), and reserve group(s) (Chuikov, 1963):

  • Assault group(s): Their job was to break in and take the building. Each assault group had 6-8 men with with sub-machine-guns, 5-12 grenades each ('pocket artillery'), knives and sharpened spades; collectively these were always under a single commander.
  • Reinforcement group(s): Once the commander of the assault groups signalled "We're in", the reinforcement groups would move in from different directions. Once inside they would capture firing positions, set up, then block any attempted enemy interference from outside. Given their role this group had machine guns, sub-machine guns, mortars, anti-tank rifles and guns, crow-bars, picks and explosives. They often included sappers and snipers. The reinforcement group(s) came under the command of the commander of the storm group. The machine gunners, anti-tank riflemen and mortar gunners entered the building first. Their assistants followed with ammunition and food for one day. The men occupied the centre and upper floors to cover the approaches to the building. Once established they occupied further firing points in front of and on the flanks of the building. When the building was in their possession they entrenched, adapted existing fortifications, built new ones, and dug communication trenches.
  • Reserve group(s): These formed the basis of new assault groups, prevented enemy attacks from the flanks, and if necessary, blocked any counter-attacks.
Assaults were often conducted without a preliminary bombardment, the element of surprise being considered paramount (Chuikov, 1963). On the other hand, infantry guns and tanks - previously moved into hidden positions - were used at point blank range to destroy enemy posts. Chuikov describes how an storm group form the 45th Rifle Division (Sokolov) lugged a 122mm howitzer piecemeal into the Red October factory, assembled it, then blasted a breach into the area controlled by the Germans. Similarly the 39th Guards Rifle Division used a 203mm guns in the direct fire mode in the fighting at the Red October factory; in this case the range was 200-300 m. Anti-tank incendiary shells from the 45mm anti-tank gun were used to destroy simple German fortifications in buildings.

References

Beevor, A. (1999). Stalingrad. Penguin.
Chuikov, V. I. (1963). The Beginning of the Road: The story for the Battle for Stalingrad. Macgibbon and Kee.
Clark, A. (1965). Barbarossa. Cassell.
Erickson, J. (1993). The Road to Stalingrad: Stalin's war with Germany: Volume One. London: Weidenfeld.





Mark the bolded parts. And in this last bit is about the 45th Rifle Division (which didn't just have rifles...)
Can't give enough + for this post!

On these forums many seem to assume that every unit was issued same firearms regardless of what their mission was.
 
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The issue is that if there was realistic squad load outs then the Germans would get rolled, the SMG armed assault groups on the Eastern Front scared the German High Commander to rush the MP44 going over Hitler's head to do so and even the Americans had better weapon load outs on a per squad basis but what stopped the Germans from being wiped out is that used better tactics to outwit the allies which is something you don't see on servers...

As I said before, all what needs to happen is for the classes to be scaled on a per player basis as there often more Squad Leaders than Squad members. Also keep in mind that I thought the "Elite Rifleman" class was a hero only role, maybe it get locked in the full game until a player gets hero status which is not in the beta...
 
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Can't give enough + for this post!

On these forums many seem to assume that every unit was issued same firearms regardless of what their mission was.


Yeah but in a game, maps determine mission types.
So far you got Appartements, Barracks, and Elevator might as well be thrown in if we except the second objective.
What it would mean is, in such case Riflemen would just have stay away from more than half RO2's maps, might as well give everyone semis and SMG's, which most RO vets (in my humble opinion) wouldn't care much for.
 
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I only play Riflemen, I play very aggressively and attack points/always try to fight from the points. (That's the best way to win, and to get the highest score.)

It is EXTREMELY RARE for me to run into someone not using a Semi or an auto.
I'm not complaining to much because 75% of the time I still kill them.

But its pretty ridiculous. :/
 
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