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A few things that need to change in the name of realism

Yellonet

Grizzled Veteran
Feb 27, 2007
275
144
Playing the beta which overall is very good.
However, there are quite a few things that bothers me both in game mechanics and realism.
This thread is about the realism aspect only.

My suggestions apply to the hardcore setting, which currently isn't that hardcore.
These features that I want changed for the most realistic setting are fine for lower settings.


Wounds

Bandaging needs to disappear, it's just not needed and quite frankly feels like something that only belong in a less realistic game.

Problem:
If you're only hurt so much that you can put on a bandage and then forget about it, there's no need for the bandage.
If you're bleeding so much that you're about to die, it's quite unlikely that you could quickly patch yourself up and then continue fighting as if nothing had happened.

Solution:
Remove bandaging and replace it with "Suck it Up or Die!".
The "Suck it Up"-part:
If you're wouned you will need to suck the pain up, this is done automatically over a few seconds while you struggle with tunnel vision and some muffling of sounds as to simulate a pain reaction.
Pretty much what we have now.
The "Die"-part:
If the player is shot with a certain amount of "deadly damage" he will die, but slowly, much more slowly than "slow death" unless he takes himself back to spawn where he is excanged for a free reinforcement with equal equipment.
Basically you respawn for free and this effectively acts as bandaging but only at the spawn location.
If you don't get back to spawn you bleed out over a random time between 1 and 3 minutes over which time you get increasingly slower and weaker, get problems holding the weapon still, vision getting worse and so on until you finally become unconcious (death).

Result:
A more realistic feel to the game, and more diverse death and wound mechanics.

Kill messages

Kill messages, even delayed ones, very much affect how the game is played. Negatively.

At a tactical level you get an unrealistic amount of information about the situation you're in.

The difference is this:
Example 1
With kill messages:
You see two enemies run into a room, without seeing the enemy you throw in a grenade and soon see two kill messages. You're then fairly sure that the room is clear and you can run inside without being careful.
Without kill messages:
You see two enemies run into a room, without seeing the enemy you throw in a grenade and hope you get them, you then proceed cautiously inside the room because you cannot be sure that you got any of them.
Example 2
With kill messages:
You shoot at an enemy behind cover, he drops behind the cover and then you get a kill message, you immediately run towards his position and help in taking it.
Without kill messages:
You shoot at an enemy behind cover, he drops behind the cover and you instantly wonder if you hit him or not, you wait for a moment to see if you spot any movement, then cautiosly move towards his postion, before you get there a new enemy appear, reinforcing the enemy postion.
At a strategic level you get unrealistic information about how the fight is going for your side even though it happens somewhere out of sight and out of hearing range.

The difference:

With kill messages:
You spawn and run towards the fighting, you see a few guys run towards the right flank as you go for the left.
You run into a fierce firefight where your team is defending a victory position against attacking enemies.
You decide to stick around and help out, even though your team seems to have a handle on the situation.
At the same time you see a lot of kill and death messages appearing from the same guys you saw moving towards the right flank.
Now without being there you know that they need help.
You decide to join them and with your added help you over run the enemy captures the final victory point.
Without kill messages:
You spawn and run towards the fighting, you see a few guys run towards the right flank as you go for the left.
You run into a fierce firefight where your team is defending a victory position against attacking enemies.
You decide to stick around and help out, even though your team seems to have a handle on the situation.
Now you don't know that the guys on the right need help and without it they ended up dead and the enemy soon outflanked your position and thereafter won the match.
Solution:
Remove all messages about kills. This also includes removing the scoring board, but then again, why would anyone need to see it until the round is over anyway?
Even spawnpool info should be restricted to a course scale, such as "Full, plenty, about half, low, almost depleated, depleated"

Result:
More realistic behaviour by players, communication and coordination among the teams become key to winning.
Personal skill and running between "hot zones" become less of a factor in the overall battle.
Better immersion as you de-clutter the interface and you have to keep your eyes and ears more open to gain situational awareness.
Gaining and attaining situational awareness becomes a key skill.


Victory point messaging

Problem:
Getting info on how many enemies are in the cap zone affects how the game is played as it affects if you will ask for reinforcements and if you'll get it and so on.

Solution:
Only keep the message about the victory location being attacked and or taken, don't show any relative numbers, also the time at which a place is capped should always be the same no matter how many more guys you have than the enemy.

Result:
More realistic behaviour by the players as there is confusion about the situation.
You get the ability to feign an attack against a position with a couple of men, while attacking another position in force.
Gaining and attaining situational awareness becomes a key skill.
Communication between players become more important.


That's only a few things, but it's and I really need to sleep.
 
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Servers can turn death messages on or off. Solution: Play complete realism servers.

Bandages are a reward for wounding other players. When you shoot quickly at a running enemy and see a blood-puff, then you can rest assured he will probably need to bandage if he doesn't bleed-out. Bandaging is a way to force a player to take time out of a firefight in order to re-assess themselves and get back in the fight.

Bandaging is simply a way to take players out of a battle for even a second.. enough to make a push or throw a grenade. It forces enemies to stop what they are doing. It's a gameplay choice that plays on "being wounded" without having characters run slower or something equally as frustrating.

Sometimes a wound can be a graze, or a piece of shrapnel, or even a sprained ankle. You don't need a bullet hole clean through your body in order to be wounded.
 
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Servers can turn death messages on or off. Solution: Play complete realism servers.

I've only played so called realism servers, and they've all had kill messages, score board and the utterly unrealistic "killed from" camera.
There should really only be three realism settings, arcade, realistic and hardcore, where hardcore really is just that. When each server can be different than the other there's not going to be any consistency in gameplay from day to day unless you play on the same server all the time.

Bandages are a reward for wounding other players. When you shoot quickly at a running enemy and see a blood-puff, then you can rest assured he will probably need to bandage if he doesn't bleed-out. Bandaging is a way to force a player to take time out of a firefight in order to re-assess themselves and get back in the fight.

Bandaging is simply a way to take players out of a battle for even a second.. enough to make a push or throw a grenade. It forces enemies to stop what they are doing. It's a gameplay choice that plays on "being wounded" without having characters run slower or something equally as frustrating.
I fully understand the reason behind this mechanic, it's just it's implementation that I'm against.
Being mortally wounded doesn't always mean you die in seconds and what you call frustration, I call immersion.
As you say it's a gameplay choice, but to me it's a bit too gamey and doesn't really belong in the most realistic setting.

Sometimes a wound can be a graze, or a piece of shrapnel, or even a sprained ankle. You don't need a bullet hole clean through your body in order to be wounded.
Exactly, that's when you get a pain reaction as I described and during that time you'll have lowered combat ability just like we have now, minus the bandaging. You suck it up and move on after a while.
I've not bled out once when being wounded, just wait a while and it get's better by itself. But maybe I've just been lucky.
 
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Right now, Imagine a situation where you have a bolt-lock rifle indoors and an ivan ambushes you with his PPSh. He about 5 meters away from you, but fails to kill you only hitting you once while emptying his whole clip. What would you do?

In RO1, and also in reality you would probably charge him with your bayonet.

Well, right now you magically bandage yourself there right in front of him before he even reloads to avoid bleeding out in the next 5 seconds.

----

Then, about the kill messages. I would like to have a system where I get a list of my kills after I die.
 
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I'm sad about the killfeed personally. One of the things I loved about Insurgency was just that, no killfeed that forced you to be much more careful. However, towards the end, I couldnt find a single server that didn't have some serverside mod to enable killfeeds.

Even if it would be outright removed, I'm pretty sure majority of servers would run some mod to enable the killfeed.

While Insurgency maybe isn't just as hardcore as RO can be, it still is, you die just as much to single shots to torso, but instead everyone has a full auto weapon. Weapons are fairly realistically modelled too, so they are more than accurate on the distances Insurgency has. So even the crowd that wanted fairly realistic modern day FPS, it seems they still wanted the killfeed and I don't see this being too different in RO2 even if they were disabled from the game.
 
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I dont understand how can you be so contradicted towards your own claims ?

You claim you want realism , but...

1st , you want an injured soldier to drag himself away from the objective , and back to the spawn ( on , lets say Fallen Fighters , which is about 200m away ) , to only be replaced for reinforcement ?
Well in that case , why not simply die , and respawn... It would take you bout 5 - 10 seconds to respawn , instead of spending 2 mins of dragging yourself around , praying that a sniper doesnt shoot you in the arse.

2nd ,you request more kill feed , even tho its utterly pointless to consider it real... For Example , you are standing on the 2nd floor of Univermag , and you shoot a commie near a fountain... With all the sounds of a War going on around you , and the presumption that you cant just stand up on the balcony and look if he is still moving , how would it be real for you to know that its a kill shot ?
If you dont have a scoped weapon , your sight cant be good enough to make sure you have even hit the target... And if you do have a scope , than you can see your effect...
Also , the grenade thing... The sound of artillery outside , and shooting / explosions in general + the explosion of your own grenade would it make it impossible to Audio-determine if you took a kill , or two... And you getting kill-feed info is just stupid , and goes towards taking out , not bringing in the realism...

3rd , and this is the only thing I agree on... Is the capturing in Countdown mode. If we can see the exact number of people in the building , that we can also gain unfair advantage of number of possible support snipers , or alike.
Also , what I would like to add , is that the actual capping is not really fair in my opinion. For example , defending the house block in Apartments map , means that you have to be moving around the house all the time , instead of focusing on defending the key points. The other day , I was with my comrade on the 3rd floor of the house , and 5 - 6 crouts just rushed in through the back door. We dident even manage to get to the lower floor , before the capping star simply rushed up , and ended the round. Imo it should either be slower , or demand some sort of strategic take down , because this is won in a very unfair way.

My 2 rubles , any thoughts ?
 
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I dont understand how can you be so contradicted towards your own claims ?

You claim you want realism , but...

1st , you want an injured soldier to drag himself away from the objective , and back to the spawn ( on , lets say Fallen Fighters , which is about 200m away ) , to only be replaced for reinforcement ?
Well in that case , why not simply die , and respawn... It would take you bout 5 - 10 seconds to respawn , instead of spending 2 mins of dragging yourself around , praying that a sniper doesnt shoot you in the arse.

2nd ,you request more kill feed , even tho its utterly pointless to consider it real... For Example , you are standing on the 2nd floor of Univermag , and you shoot a commie near a fountain... With all the sounds of a War going on around you , and the presumption that you cant just stand up on the balcony and look if he is still moving , how would it be real for you to know that its a kill shot ?
If you dont have a scoped weapon , your sight cant be good enough to make sure you have even hit the target... And if you do have a scope , than you can see your effect...
Also , the grenade thing... The sound of artillery outside , and shooting / explosions in general + the explosion of your own grenade would it make it impossible to Audio-determine if you took a kill , or two... And you getting kill-feed info is just stupid , and goes towards taking out , not bringing in the realism...

3rd , and this is the only thing I agree on... Is the capturing in Countdown mode. If we can see the exact number of people in the building , that we can also gain unfair advantage of number of possible support snipers , or alike.
Also , what I would like to add , is that the actual capping is not really fair in my opinion. For example , defending the house block in Apartments map , means that you have to be moving around the house all the time , instead of focusing on defending the key points. The other day , I was with my comrade on the 3rd floor of the house , and 5 - 6 crouts just rushed in through the back door. We dident even manage to get to the lower floor , before the capping star simply rushed up , and ended the round. Imo it should either be slower , or demand some sort of strategic take down , because this is won in a very unfair way.

My 2 rubles , any thoughts ?
Yes, it's more realistic to want to live than to want to die. And with this you save a respawn from the pool. And you don't have to go back if you don't feel like it, you can still fight on for a while.

And furthermore, I want to remove the kill messages completely... who is it that you're addressing with this?

And about capping, yes, there should be the same speed no matter what, and it should be quite slow.
There should be no way of knowing exactly how many people you need to cap or defend.
So what is the purpose of attacking or defending with a lot of people? Even though you're not capping faster you're more likely to be able to clean out the opposition.
 
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I'll have to disagree on that spawn idea. Dragging yourself for 2 minutes back to the spawn (all the while you can still be shot to death anyway) just for 1 free ticket is certainly not enough reward for yourself. Not even for your team for that matter, seeing as they've got to do with 1 effective man, and thus 1 rifle, less for the time being. In terms of gameplay, it's also quite bloated and unecessary. After the first few times, I reckon it's not going to be a lot of "fun" either, realistic or not. And that's what a game should be about, right?

I do agree that bleedout and bandage time needs to be extended though. Right now, it's a minor inconvenience instead of a penalty. Timer should be just long enough for you to not being able to ad-hoc heal yourself, but fast enough that you're not watching a 60 animation of you fumbling around with guaze. I think the sweetspot for this would be 5 or 6 seconds, with bleedout being 15-20 seconds tops. If he dares to dress the wound in battle, the enemy will have ample time to reload, fire again or just melee him in the head.
 
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I'll have to disagree on that spawn idea. Dragging yourself for 2 minutes back to the spawn (all the while you can still be shot to death anyway) just for 1 free ticket is certainly not enough reward for yourself. Not even for your team for that matter, seeing as they've got to do with 1 effective man, and thus 1 rifle, less for the time being. In terms of gameplay, it's also quite bloated and unecessary. After the first few times, I reckon it's not going to be a lot of "fun" either, realistic or not. And that's what a game should be about, right?
Yes in many situations it's probably wiser to continue the fight, and for a while it's not going to be a big problem and you'll have plenty of time to get killed off fast before you become unconscious.
If you're close to spawn it would make sense to get back there and get replaced.

I do agree that bleedout and bandage time needs to be extended though. Right now, it's a minor inconvenience instead of a penalty. Timer should be just long enough for you to not being able to ad-hoc heal yourself, but fast enough that you're not watching a 60 animation of you fumbling around with guaze. I think the sweetspot for this would be 5 or 6 seconds, with bleedout being 15-20 seconds tops. If he dares to dress the wound in battle, the enemy will have ample time to reload, fire again or just melee him in the head.
If one can just bandage oneself quickly and then be good as new, there were never any need to get a bandage anyway.

What would be so wrong with a sliding scale of injuries, it's not realistic to either die or be completely unhurt within seconds.
 
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