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RO2 - war or a spectator sport?

Nice wall of text, but i think you are jumping too eager to conclusions.
A legitimate observation.

I played the beta all of yesterday (lucky me), and observed lots of tactical maneuver, especially on the Fallen Fighters map.....guys on their bellies, using the terrain (and the margins of the map) in attempts to infiltrate closer, to place iron-sights shots accurately before they exposed themselves.

I was playing mostly Territory (some Firefight) modes on a "realism" server out of Chicago, so maybe this is some of the difference in gameplay styles encountered? (!)

If you're playing Countdown, then "Arena" is what you have to expect, and this was obvious (to me at least) when this mode was first announced by TWI.

Let's gets some new maps to try, and allow for server tweaks first before we send this whole beta-baby down the river. ;)
 
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After having hours of playtime and numerous conversations with other "hardcore realism unit" friends, we have come to the conclusion that RO2 feels more like a spectator sport than a war.

In RO1, DH, Mare Nostrum etc, you are thrown onto a battlefield, most often a large open environment or urban city, and can tactically move throughout the map from cover to cover, flanking the enemy, and utilizing support weapons to provide suppression and cover fire to advance. When you entered a village you were never quite sure what you would find there. This gameplay threw you into a mindset of being in a real war, as the tactics, weapon handling, and terrain mimicked that of what one would imagine a a real war setting to be. So much so, that many people who just entered the game would spend minutes proned in spawn scared to advance. This is the reality of war, people die and people are scared. You'll be hard pressed to find someone from WW2 who just said "Yeah, war was fun!" No, they will tell you they were scared and the only thing that got them through it was their comrades and if the reality that if they didn't kill they would be killed.

In RO2 it feels more like they have taken a map, let's say Apartments, and inserted it into the center of a Roman Colosseum. We have 10+ minutes to be gladiators and amuse the plebs with mindless bloodshed. After this 10+ minutes passes, we enter the 2nd quarter and start again with the mindless camping, running, and gunning through our rat maze like headless chickens. No tactics, no room to maneuver, no map distance to bother with support weapons, just mindless running from one point to another through a series of choke-points while the crowd goes wild and places bets on which side will die out first. Countdown is even more like a sport with the rounds lasting 2-5 minutes and everyone spawning again for another go, much the way CS felt like, and to a degree IS, a sport rather than an actual counter-terrorism simulation. What I liked so much about RO1 and its mods was that they felt more like a simulation and less like a generic fps, and the map sizes played a large part in that.

Their step away from RO1 and simulation is evident by the removal of transport vehicles and preference for small maps. If TW are set on leaving the game feeling as a sport, I hope the community will revive that sense of real war by making some large open combined arms maps with villages and urban centers. I miss fighting for a purpose, with realistic objectives and teamwork. With small maps comes the inability to work as a team and a meaningless shift toward run-and-gun solo tactics.

Below are some changes which I feel would bring back that feeling of being in a real war.

*Larger combined arms maps, and by large I mean actual dynamic open maps without the generic large circular pit surrounded by three story buildings filled with snipers.

*Removal of "phases" of maps. Let us access entire maps at all times.

*Longer Bandage Time

*Removal of names over heads without having your cross hair exactly on person's body. As it stands it has a large open radius by which names will go up over a head, and they remain after moving off of that target.

*Ability to swap Radar for old school compass

*Addition of weapon sway with no stamina and after 30 seconds of holding your breath you need to catch your breath and sway incurs.

*Lessen the ability to zoom so much with the rifle server wide

*Give us some LONG rounds... 30-60 minutes of territory on these currently unavailable large maps.

*Transport Vehicles

Please realize that if I did not enjoy these games I would not be posting, but I just hope the potential of RO2 is met in the future and that it grows more towards the simulation side of things heading into release than it currently is at now. Thanks for making RO1 and RO2, now please don't forget about us who like to feel like we are in real war and not in a gladiatorial performance.

What utter rubbish..lol..You been playing the game what 12hours max..Troll somewhere else please:mad:
 
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You realize the only non-tank maps in right now are remakes of two of the smallest maps in RO right?

Go and play danzig on a RO1 server and tell me the gameplay doesn't feature just as much "headless chickens" gameplay.

Also you're bashing them for lacking transports? Seriously? That's in the first free DLC. And have you seen some of the bigger maps like Grain Elevator??

I'm sorry but this post is just ignoring reality.
 
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The first part of your post leads to believe you have problems with the game, while you actually just seem to have problems with the maps.

I agree, the maps are too small and the roundtimes are too short, but the core game seems to be okay.

Undoubtly people will make new, better maps, and plenty of servers will increase the round times as well.

The bandaging time, the names above heads etc, will probably not be there in hardcore mode.
 
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This is hands down the most d*****bag comment i have ever seen come from a developer. Completely unprofessional.


You're a moron, these guys became a studio because they made a mod.. Red Orchestra was originally a mod for Unreal Tournament 2k4 and they won a ton of money and started their own studio.. So yeah they encourage people to mod their games because that's how they got where they are today.

He told him straight up, we make the games WE want to play. Nothing wrong with that. Quit crying.
 
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I really didn't want to be one of those annoying people who complained etc. but I really have to say that the maps they've given us (that might be the problem) feel very different to Red Orchestra.

I want to see large combined arms maps that involve "no-man's land" where you're in a bombed out building with a few team-mates trying to kill the riflemen who're doing the exact same thing in a building opposite, you then call artillery on their house and advance, you could send troops to flank them etc.

At the moment the maps feel far too small and cramped and and it's only a few seconds after I spawn that I'm shot, I think Fallen Heroes is or is on its way to being a good map, depending on where we spawn, I'd like to have one team holed up on one side of the plaza and the other on the opposite side before making a charge or flanking the enemy's building, even then though I'd consider that a smallish map.

RO2 is still a brilliant game though and I think my main problem is the selection of maps we currently have, if the new released maps aren't to my liking I'm sure we'll have maps I do like modded in.

My only other concerns are going to be fixed by servers enabling more realism options.

I've underlined a part in this quote.
The weird thing is, that both Appartments and FallenFighters are both maps already featured in RO1.

I'm not trying to be a douche in my comments. I am actually trying to make OP and others think about the opportunities that they have. Opportunities that we had and took up on in the past, since we started as a MOD ourselves.

People, like the OP, clearly have a whish for vastly adjusted gameplay to suit their own preference. OP want's large open maps that last 30-40 minutes and have no specific battleflow AND transort vehicles. These kind of large open maps that can last an hour were in RO1 and were great community made projects. All I am saying to OP: you and your friends, who are clearly on the same page, have an opportunity to take your ideas and make your own perfect gaming world come true.

As for the rest of our maps; we have a very varied line-up ready for you guys. Some will be loved, others maybe somewhat less. But 10, is the magic number ;-)
 
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The other thing - The Countdown - WTF! When the round start it says DEFEND this objective. Ok but what defending is that.. we must GO to the a.k.a ATTACK the obejctive to deffend it. This is not DEFENDING! What deffense is that where the DEFENDERS must fight with the ATTACKERS who are alrady there before them. This is not a defending >..

Total Agree !!
 
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The other thing - The Countdown - WTF! When the round start it says DEFEND this objective. Ok but what defending is that.. we must GO to the a.k.a ATTACK the obejctive to deffend it. This is not DEFENDING! What deffense is that where the DEFENDERS must fight with the ATTACKERS who are alrady there before them. This is not a defending >..
You do start a hell of a lot closer to the objective than the attacking team, and if you just run towards it after round start there is no way an attacker will get there first.

It would hardly be reasonable to spawn everyone inside said objective because some people like to make their own decision on how they want to defend it. Oh and taking objectives from dug in enemies is bloody hard - it would be a pretty crappy gameplay mode if the defending team spawned inside the obj all set up, dug in and comfortable - and just slaughtered the attacking team with breathless ease!
 
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I've underlined a part in this quote.
The weird thing is, that both Appartments and FallenFighters are both maps already featured in RO1.

I'm not trying to be a douche in my comments. I am actually trying to make OP and others think about the opportunities that they have. Opportunities that we had and took up on in the past, since we started as a MOD ourselves.

People, like the OP, clearly have a whish for vastly adjusted gameplay to suit their own preference. OP want's large open maps that last 30-40 minutes and have no specific battleflow AND transort vehicles. These kind of large open maps that can last an hour were in RO1 and were great community made projects. All I am saying to OP: you and your friends, who are clearly on the same page, have an opportunity to take your ideas and make your own perfect gaming world come true.

As for the rest of our maps; we have a very varied line-up ready for you guys. Some will be loved, others maybe somewhat less. But 10, is the magic number ;-)

UDK feels rather simplistic, complicated still and very poor in my opinion.
Or atleast the last time I tried it, it felt like Valves Hammer. Very poor.
 
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UDK feels rather simplistic, complicated still and very poor in my opinion.
Or atleast the last time I tried it, it felt like Valves Hammer. Very poor.

Just out of interest, can you tell me what engine development kit you think is actually good?

I'm sure anyone who used UEd for RO1 can grasp the UDK...
 
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You do start a hell of a lot closer to the objective than the attacking team, and if you just run towards it after round start there is no way an attacker will get there first.

It would hardly be reasonable to spawn everyone inside said objective because some people like to make their own decision on how they want to defend it. Oh and taking objectives from dug in enemies is bloody hard - it would be a pretty crappy gameplay mode if the defending team spawned inside the obj all set up, dug in and comfortable - and just slaughtered the attacking team with breathless ease!

People on this forum constantly speak of Realism adn all that.

But in this mode, you complain lol.
I thought the attackers where the meat, and the defenders the grinder.

Defenders dont leave an objective, so I dont see why they shouldnt spawn inside or veeery close to it. Attackers should come in waves, defenders too, but slower due to they having the upperhand.
 
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Defenders dont leave an objective, so I dont see why they shouldnt spawn inside or veeery close to it. Attackers should come in waves, defenders too, but slower due to they having the upperhand.

I see what your saying, but really if the defenders spawned any closer it would be very difficult to cap. It's supposed to be a challenge for both teams, not a walk in the park for one and hell for the other.

I've been playing it since the start of the friends and family beta and I wouldn't change that particular aspect of it at all.
 
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I'm amazed, first at the OP and then at all the people agreeing with him, pining for the old RO days when maps were better. Did you guys ever actually play RO? :confused:

As has been pointed out, both infantry maps are nearly exact copies of old RO maps - and play nearly the same as well.

Danzig was always a run n' gun type map - and - it was popular with a certain segment of the community. There was always a full Danzig 24/7 server. Apartments actually gives you slightly more tacitical options as there are a few more hallways and some expanded areas on each side of the map, plus the ability to mantle into windows.

Fallen Fighters is completely different. People are actually choosing bolts when there are assault classes open. It's far slower, rewards cover and concealment, timing and patience, teamwork, and smart combined arms tactics. I've also noticed that as people have learned the map, it has become far more tacitical - more than the original map where one could still own with a SMG.

Give the game a chance. If Fallen Fighters is any indicator of the possibilities bigger, open maps will offer, I think it is heading in the right direction.
 
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After having hours of playtime and numerous conversations with other "hardcore realism unit" friends, we have come to the conclusion that RO2 feels more like a spectator sport than a war.

In RO1, DH, Mare Nostrum etc, you are thrown onto a battlefield, most often a large open environment or urban city, and can tactically move throughout the map from cover to cover, flanking the enemy, and utilizing support weapons to provide suppression and cover fire to advance. When you entered a village you were never quite sure what you would find there. This gameplay threw you into a mindset of being in a real war, as the tactics, weapon handling, and terrain mimicked that of what one would imagine a a real war setting to be. So much so, that many people who just entered the game would spend minutes proned in spawn scared to advance. This is the reality of war, people die and people are scared. You'll be hard pressed to find someone from WW2 who just said "Yeah, war was fun!" No, they will tell you they were scared and the only thing that got them through it was their comrades and if the reality that if they didn't kill they would be killed.

In RO2 it feels more like they have taken a map, let's say Apartments, and inserted it into the center of a Roman Colosseum. We have 10+ minutes to be gladiators and amuse the plebs with mindless bloodshed. After this 10+ minutes passes, we enter the 2nd quarter and start again with the mindless camping, running, and gunning through our rat maze like headless chickens. No tactics, no room to maneuver, no map distance to bother with support weapons, just mindless running from one point to another through a series of choke-points while the crowd goes wild and places bets on which side will die out first. Countdown is even more like a sport with the rounds lasting 2-5 minutes and everyone spawning again for another go, much the way CS felt like, and to a degree IS, a sport rather than an actual counter-terrorism simulation. What I liked so much about RO1 and its mods was that they felt more like a simulation and less like a generic fps, and the map sizes played a large part in that.

Their step away from RO1 and simulation is evident by the removal of transport vehicles and preference for small maps. If TW are set on leaving the game feeling as a sport, I hope the community will revive that sense of real war by making some large open combined arms maps with villages and urban centers. I miss fighting for a purpose, with realistic objectives and teamwork. With small maps comes the inability to work as a team and a meaningless shift toward run-and-gun solo tactics.

Below are some changes which I feel would bring back that feeling of being in a real war.

*Larger combined arms maps, and by large I mean actual dynamic open maps without the generic large circular pit surrounded by three story buildings filled with snipers.

*Removal of "phases" of maps. Let us access entire maps at all times.

*Longer Bandage Time

*Removal of names over heads without having your cross hair exactly on person's body. As it stands it has a large open radius by which names will go up over a head, and they remain after moving off of that target.

*Ability to swap Radar for old school compass

*Addition of weapon sway with no stamina and after 30 seconds of holding your breath you need to catch your breath and sway incurs.

*Lessen the ability to zoom so much with the rifle server wide

*Give us some LONG rounds... 30-60 minutes of territory on these currently unavailable large maps.

*Transport Vehicles

Please realize that if I did not enjoy these games I would not be posting, but I just hope the potential of RO2 is met in the future and that it grows more towards the simulation side of things heading into release than it currently is at now. Thanks for making RO1 and RO2, now please don't forget about us who like to feel like we are in real war and not in a gladiatorial performance.

You just put everything I'm thinking into words, thank you.

+1
 
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The great problem does people think the game has to adapt to them and not they who have to adapt to the new features of the game. It's the same with most games, it is impossible to make everyone happy.

Tey will release much additional FREE content in the future, like maps and veichles, this game have a great potential, and i trust in TWI and in the future improvments of the game, like they have made with Killing Floor.

If you dont like this, you can buy a game like COD and spend a gret lots of money in a spensive game with much spensive DLCs.
 
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Omg.....I dont understand why people are complaining about all the stuff that modders will take care of in the future. TWI has given us the opportunity to play this beta, and I think most of us are happy for that, and I hope we all can give them feedback when we come across bugs in the game. Spectator sport? LMAO. Just remember that the best modders are allready modding the heck out of this wonderful game.

Thank u TWI! this is awesome and will be even better :)

"Its better 2 burn out than 2 fade away"

For those who realy dont know what a BETA is:
"Since the publisher cannot possibly test the software under all possible conditions, it is reasonable to expect that wider use of the software may uncover problems that were not discovered during in-house testing. The publisher expects to be notified when users find such problems so that the program can be fixed before its official release.
In general, you should expect to run into bugs whenever using any piece of beta software. These bugs may range in severity, from minor features that don't work to problems that cause your computer to crash. Before choosing to use a piece of beta software, you should decide whether the benefit of new features in a beta program outweighs the risk of program instability. You should also be aware that UITS does not thoroughly test beta software, nor will the software be guaranteed by its maker, so you should not expect the same level of support as you would receive for an official release version of the program."
 
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