Community Beta Conclusions

[Undedd Jester]

Revised changes based on further feedback. There are still some I would like to see opinions on

Green are changes I would definately like to see
Turquoise are changes I would like but wouldn't be heart broken if not altered.
Orange are figures that have been revised from the original post

Spoiler!

Field Medic:
- Make the Field Medic's speed the same on all difficulties, not just slightly slower on HoE

Sharpshooter:
- Gives a Handcannon at level 5, LAR at level 6 (or LAR + HC depending on community opinion)
- Increase Xbow base damage to 325

Support Specialist:
- Remove all grenade bonuses
- Change movement speed:weight ratio to be based on default weight rather than perks max carry weight (depending on community opinion, only reduce it up to 15Kgs in weight, beyond that the player will be slowed no further)

Commando:
- Swap weights of the Bullpup and Scar around to be 5 and 6 respectively
- Add penetration to SCAR, bullets penetrate once, doing 50% less damage on 2nd hit

Berserker:
- Reduce movement speed back to 20% at level 6
- Reduce damage resistance back to 33% at level 6
- Change level 5 spawn weapon to axe, level 6 to katana
- Make spawning without armour standard for all difficulties, not just HoE

Firebug:
- Keep the total burn damage, but make it deal its damage over only 8 seconds (better DPS) rather than 10
- Lower flamethrower weight to 9
- Mac10 recieves bonus magsize and ammo, but the regular values of the gun are altered accordingly to make the weapon the same as it is now for the Firebug. (30 ammo standard in the clip etc)
- Reload speed bonus applied to the MAC-10
- Mac10 should ignite targets offperked too but have an offperk restriction such as you need to deal 62 damage (3 bodyshots or max 2 headshots) to ignite the target
- Rename the Mac10 into "MAC-10 Incendiary".
- Change level 5 spawn weapon to Mac-10, level 6 to Flamethrower

Demolitions Expert:
- Increase base damage of the LAW to 980
- Add Explosives discount to grenades

Fleshpound:
- Change rage timer so that breaking Line Of Sight only pauses the rage timer instead of resetting it.
- Rage timer pauses instead of resets from dodging any "hits" from a Fleshpound attack.
- Rage timer resets whenever a Fleshpound breaks down a door down or deals above a certain amount of damage to the player.

Stalker:
- Add a moving melee attack
- Slow her down like a Gorefast when she crisps up from fire damage

I will be honest I'm finding the rainbow posting, quite LoLish

I still think Support will be a tad overpowered, and naturally majority of pub naabs will play that over anything else, but heck Support camping is far less annoying than Berserker kiting. If anyone has a good suggestion on how to fairly, and I stress the word fairly, nerf the Support Specialist, I'm all ears.

Only thing I can think of is fix the HS instant swap + reload thing, but I would be kind of sad to see that go myself, so not a fan of that one.

 

[Aze]

Responses in... white xD (Things which i don't comment i like a lot, thus no need to reply on them^^)

Spoiler!

Sharpshooter:
- Gives a Handcannon at level 5, LAR at level 6 (or LAR + HC depending on community opinion)

Why do you guys insist on the HC or LAR as spawn weapons, instead of increasing the cost of the Xbow and make it benefit from perk discount? That would be much easier imo. Especially since neither the LAR or HC (unless you give Dual HC at level 6) is worth the same as other perks starting weapons.

Support Specialist:
- Change movement speed:weight ratio to be based on default weight rather than perks max carry weight (depending on community opinion, only reduce it up to 15Kgs in weight, beyond that the player will be slowed no further)

Oooh, i like that idea you have in parenthesis! Beyond 15 he is still "at 15". I like that compromise very much! Good thinking

Berserker:
- Reduce movement speed back to 20% at level 6
- Reduce damage resistance back to 33% at level 6
- Change level 5 spawn weapon to axe, level 6 to katana
- Make spawning without armour standard for all difficulties, not just HoE

I like this a lot. Nice intermediate changes. But what about the Chainsaw? Any opinion on it? You think it needs a buff too? (Like, secondary being able to stun a Scrake from the front, for example. That would be far from overpowered)

Firebug:
- Keep the total burn damage, but make it deal its damage over only 8 seconds (better DPS) rather than 10
- Lower flamethrower weight to 9
- Mac10 recieves bonus magsize and ammo, but the regular values of the gun are altered accordingly to make the weapon the same as it is now for the Firebug. (30 ammo standard in the clip etc)
- Reload speed bonus applied to the MAC-10
- Mac10 should ignite targets offperked too but have an offperk restriction such as you need to deal 62 damage (3 bodyshots or max 2 headshots) to ignite the target
- Rename the Mac10 into "MAC-10 Incendiary".
- Change level 5 spawn weapon to Mac-10, level 6 to Flamethrower

Nice, nice. What about scaling burn damage on the Mac10? Or you think that doesn't matter? Got a question though, what do you mean by "Mac10 recieves bonus magsize and ammo, but the regular values of the gun are altered accordingly to make the weapon the same as it is now for the Firebug. (30 ammo standard in the clip etc)"? You mean, it gets a lot less unperked starting ammo, so it ends with (more or less) 300 bullets at level 6? Or what do you mean?

Another note, Firebug DOES have reload bonus for the Mac10, but it is only up to 30% currently (while the FT has 60% speed). You mean to give both weapons 60% instead?

Demolitions Expert:
- Add Explosives discount to grenades

I like that. You'd give the same (up to) 70% discount, or less of a discount? I'd give it (from 0 to 6) 25 to 50% discount. More balanced i guess.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Responses in... white xD (Things which i don't comment i like a lot, thus no need to reply on them^^)

1) Sharpshooter weapons

Well I'm happy with whatever, although I consider the Xbow a tier 3 weapon so I lean away from keeping it as a spawn with weapon. But whichever really, I'm not too concerned by that one

2) Chainsaw buff

Could use a buff I'd say. I don't think anyone would object to a buff to the alt fire.

3) MAC-10

Yeah thats it. whatever it works out at

4) Demo nades

Yeah, mostly for consistency more than anything, but also so that low level demos can actually buy something useful off the bat. Can you imagine grenades costing like

 

[poosh]

I agree with most of suggestions, except Sharpshooter:

• HC+LAR initial weapons for level 6 SS sounds fine to me, but xbow price should be altered too (like 1250 base and apply standard discount rates)
• Xbow damage should be kept to 300. 325 allows killing FP with 3 headshots in 6p HoE game, and imo it's too easy. Skilled SS can make 2 xbow headshots before FP's rage animation ends. So one more clear shot and FP is down - too easy imo.

 

[Aze]

Point 1 - 3

Coolio ^^

4) Demo nades

Yeah, mostly for consistency more than anything, but also so that low level demos can actually buy something useful off the bat. Can you imagine grenades costing like

 

[scary ghost]

Buffing the Xbow so it at least DECAPS with 3 headshots (rather than requiring 3 xbow headshots + 1 9mm headshot lol) would be better. I guess a damage of 305 or 310 is better than 325?

It already does that @ 325, and doesn't stun scrakes off perk.

 

[Aze]

Just had another weird idea for Demolitions hehe:

Currently, Demolitions gets up to a 120% increase in ammo on LAW and Handgrenades (so they benefit from the same bonus). While this is really nice for the Demolitions perk, it sucks that if you put down the LAW, you lose up to TWELVE rockets (from 22 down to 10) :S

However, here is an idea how to both boost the Demo perk a little and to remove that huge loss in rockets:

* Increase the LAW base max ammo to 15 (from 10)
* Change the LAW rocket and Handgrenade amount bonus from a percentage bonus to a plain bonus like this: From level 0 to 6 you get +1/2/3/4/5/6/7 amount of Rockets/Handgrenades. Then you will end up with the same max 22 rockets for the LAW, but with a steadier pace and with less of a loss if you throw the LAW to the ground, and you will end up with 12 max Handgrenades, up from 11.

How does that sound?

EDIT:

It already does that @ 325, and doesn't stun scrakes off perk.

Excellent (And i guess you are referring to Scrakes on Sui/Hoe no? )

 

[Slappy Cromwell]

- Slow her down like a Gorefast when she crisps up from fire damage

What's the purpose of this? Even if they did get a moving melee attack, Stalkers are so weak to begin with that even minimal fire afterburn damage will likely kill one. If it manages to survive, you want to handicap it further even beyond the health loss? Why nerf an enemy in such a slight manner when it needs absolutely every little bit of help it can get?

 

[Undedd Jester]

What's the purpose of this? Even if they did get a moving melee attack, Stalkers are so weak to begin with that even minimal fire afterburn damage will likely kill one. If it manages to survive, you want to handicap it further even beyond the health loss? Why nerf an enemy in such a slight manner when it needs absolutely every little bit of help it can get?

You would think so wouldn't you? It is a good point, and I personally find it quite interesting the problem it creates.

Spoiler!

Oddly enough she doesn't die as fast as you would think from a pip of flame. Nothing does really, most things on HoE require 2 pips to kill quickly.

I was slightly suprised myself by this, but here is what happens when you pip a stalker and try to let her burn out.

The stalker will run at the player head on while ignited. Stalkers move pretty quickly and will rapidly gain ground on the Firebug. After a couple of seconds she will crisp, and when she does she waves her arms in the air and starts running in crazy circles at the same speed she does normally. This would be fine except a second later she will lock back on the player and run towards them again.

The problem with this is the scrambling makes her pretty hard to hit because it is totally random. She doesn't usually die by this point, when she does lock back on the player she is now running at him from a different angle she was before, out of line with the other specimens.

Obviously this can be compensated for, but while under continous pressure, and especially on the run, this scramble can cost the Firebug vital ammo trying to cut her down, and draw his aim away from the other threats that are bearing down on him.

At the moment he can prevent this from happening by simply taking a step back to avoid the stalker attack. With the change to stalkers he will need to quick spam the Stalker which is an unnecessary overuse of ammo.

Personally I find it an interesting obstacle to overcome, and while I am safe I do enjoy watching Stalkers scramble about panicking with their flames. It breaks up repetition somewhat.

However I am trying to be open minded to the fact other players may find the Firebug rather underpowered and in need of buffing, This change of course will only effect the Firebug. On the flip side, perhaps the changes to the flamethrowers DOT will be enough.

I suppose in hindsight I should have coloured it turqoise instead of green

 

[poosh]

@Aze
SS with xbow is most powerful against Scrakes, so I think it shouldn't solo kill FP in 6p game. In 5-player game (where usually is only 1 SS) it is enough with 3 headshots to decap, even with damage = 300. When sixth player comes, SS should need team help (second SS, demo, or just a few SCAR headshots from Commando to make FP "decapable" with 3 xbow shots). That's my opinion.

You see, all those Community Beta's changes make gameplay more logical and balanced, but in the same time - easier too. If we will continue in the same way, I think we will get ultimate team of SS + Commando + Firebug rocking the 6p game like piece-of-cake, while 2 supports and berserker are AFK.

 

[Deleted member 24443]

I dont think it will be this drastic. Not saying every public game should be a win, not by a long shot, by many people are struggling to get their feet on the ground, so the balance beta should also be a balance between the pros (I think many of them are here and read through the boards) but also public regulars. This is also a balance. Not making the game too easy for the high end gamers, but not making it too hard for the casual players as well. While reading through this, it will be a mixed bag for both players, and with the FP changers, I believe many many more games will end in wave 7 to 8.

 

[Elsea]

I dont think it will be this drastic. Not saying every public game should be a win, not by a long shot, by many people are struggling to get their feet on the ground, so the balance beta should also be a balance between the pros (I think many of them are here and read through the boards) but also public regulars. This is also a balance. Not making the game too easy for the high end gamers, but not making it too hard for the casual players as well. While reading through this, it will be a mixed bag for both players, and with the FP changers, I believe many many more games will end in wave 7 to 8.

I don't necessarily think so. From reading the possible revised changes to the game, it seems there is a good number of buffs as well as nerfs. The only class that is definitely brought down in power is the berserker due to the changes in speed/resistance as well as the FP changes, but I think it isn't all that bad as it would force more berserkers to be more team-oriented. Support's speed nerf is somewhat of a hinderance, but I don't think it's all that bad. Nerfing their grenades lowers their ability to solo FPs fast, but with FPs being the supposedly hardest normal specimen in the game, I don't see much wrong with it.

Other than that, most of the other changes are minor or just simply buffs. If it's a straight up kiting game with berserkers and medics, I find that you need much more communication and planning if you want to succeed. Things such as where to meet up if separated so stragglers don't kill everyone, or kiting routes as well as alternate routes all need to be communicated beforehand if you want to not have anyone die in the later rounds. Less on the fly communication is necessary in a team that camps, and you'll find that most games are camp ones anyway. The FP changes don't really affect games that are camp based as it is pretty much required that you kill them as fast as you can. With the increase in crossbow and LAW damage, I would think that most games would actually become easier. Producing 3 headshots on a fleshpound is not very hard if it moves in a straight line.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that since most games are camping games, you'll probably witness more success rather than defeats. Zerker games definitely will be more difficult, but should still be doable with teamwork.

One final thing, good players that know about the various tactics to defeat specimens will probably not be very much affected by these changes anyway, because they're already good at the game and, as such, can compensate. Bad players never won games with any regularity on HoE anyway, and if they're camping, I'd think it would get easier for them since they wouldn't know about how to solo an FP with support. Oftentimes they'd just throw only one grenade or just simply spam grenades so that the FP moves and isn't hit very hard by the grenade anyway. And currently if you're a sharpshooter in a 6-man HoE, you need a little extra damage to the head of an FP to kill it with 3 crossbow shots. If you're in a bad team, that commando or other teammate might not be aware to shoot the head just a tiny bit so as to make killing it easier. After the change, it won't be necessary.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Xbow damage should be kept to 300. 325 allows killing FP with 3 headshots in 6p HoE game, and imo it's too easy. Skilled SS can make 2 xbow headshots before FP's rage animation ends. So one more clear shot and FP is down - too easy imo.

Not so sure I agree myself, but then agian it could just be that all my time playing Firebug and aiming for the body has made me crap as SS

Personally though I feel the Sharphsooter is a little gimped atm. He isn't too good against small specimens because his bonus is exclusively for headshots. This makes killing crawlers, stalkers and sometimes gorefasts (who for some reason just don't have a head every now and again) while under pressure very difficult, and ofc this is how it should be.

So given the fact his isn't very effective against smaller zeds, you would think he would be one of the best against the big zeds. In the case of the Scrake that is true. Against the Fleshpound however, he most definately isn't one of the best. I find the Demo, the Support Spec and the Berserker all outshine the Sharpie for FP killing.

You will usually only have time as a SS to make 3 Xbox shots before the Fleshpound reaches you and almost certainly kills you, unless ofc your on mountain pass or something. The fact it MUST be 3 headshots means if you miss only 1 time then you have stuffed it, and lets face it, KF's hitboxes aren't exactly the most reliable in the world

Perhaps that is fine, but given the fact that a good majority of people won't budge on the Support Specialist being nerfed issue, is the Sharpie always gonna be that 1 step behind him?

 

[Deleted member 24443]

Not completely, I think the SS is very good against ranged specimen. Try hitting a Husk while it is 50 metres away from you. Currently using it to kill medium specimen, gorefasts, sirens, bloats, husks and scrakes.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Not completely, I think the SS is very good against ranged specimen. Try hitting a Husk while it is 50 metres away from you. Currently using it to kill medium specimen, gorefasts, sirens, bloats, husks and scrakes.

Fair point actually, and I guess it doesn't hurt for him to bung in a Xbow bolt at the same time as a Support HS's a Fleshie, or a Demo pipes him.

Look at me totally missing the whole teamwork thing xD

 

[jmorrisonellis2010]

is there anyway to play this community beta still? i wanna try out some of the ideas i've read from you guys.

 

[Undedd Jester]

is there anyway to play this community beta still? i wanna try out some of the ideas i've read from you guys.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=52521

It has had a bunch of new stuff added to it as well, and some stuff is different, but most of what has been put forward is still there for testing.