Authentic Ballistics & Sniping

[Ossius]

Well in RO1 it didn't matter to model long range shots as the fog cut out vision to 1/3 of the max rifle's range. No one could get the gold marksmen achievement because of the fog. (I know I couldn't)

RO2 promises longer ranges with the zoom function and no(less) fog. So maybe there will be a difference, but I hardly doubt anyone will notice outside of aesthetics

 

[kainhall]

i have a chezk-less-vockian kregsmodell (basically a kar 98 with a lot of time saving modifications done to it so they could make more in a given time) that was made in 45.

it will hit a 4 inch round target at 700M...accurately....with open sights.

i dont know if its dead center becauethe target was a rock....


however, i dont know if the nagunts are teh same...the naguant is made better then a kregsmodell.....

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Guys don't worry, I have talked to the devs, and the K98k is going to have a smaller spread than the Mosin. Furthermore they promised to use the correct ballistic coefficients & muzzle velocities for each ammunition type this time around, which will be .590 G1 & 760 m/s for the 7.92mm sS, and .393 G1 & 860 m/s for the 7.62mm Type L.

So all is fine

 

[stewiesboys]

i cant wait to try my mosin nagant with the pu scope in ro2 with the extra realism and dialing in the hit the German solider that's right Germans Ur going down vissile is gonna get u lol

 

[Ossius]

Guys don't worry, I have talked to the devs, and the K98k is going to have a smaller spread than the Mosin. Furthermore they promised to use the correct ballistic coefficients & muzzle velocities for each ammunition type this time around, which will be .590 G1 & 760 m/s for the 7.92mm sS, and .393 G1 & 860 m/s for the 7.62mm Type L.

So all is fine

So, in laymen terms The Mosin will have 100 meters per second faster bullets but more spread?

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

Guys don't worry, I have talked to the devs, and the K98k is going to have a smaller spread than the Mosin. Furthermore they promised to use the correct ballistic coefficients & muzzle velocities for each ammunition type this time around, which will be .590 G1 & 760 m/s for the 7.92mm sS, and .393 G1 & 860 m/s for the 7.62mm Type L.

So all is fine

I hope they told you that but set it completely the opposite way around, because I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in game.

Would be worth a laugh when they finally "fixed" it in a patch.

 

[MÆST]

I would never know which sniper was more accurate, nor would I likely be able to tell in game, but I sure do appreciate developers who replicate such detail and fans, such as yourselves, who trust but verify.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

So, in laymen terms The Mosin will have 100 meters per second faster bullets but more spread?

Yes, the Type L bullet will being going faster initially but it will lose speed faster over distance than the heavier and more streamlined sS bullet. The velocity reaches equal already at 380 meters distance, after which the sS bullet starts to outpace the Type L bullet very quickly

And as mentioned, yes the K98k will have a smaller spread than the Mosin, by exactly how much; well that remains to be seen, but I'd make a wild guess and say that we're talking a difference of 0.5 MOA between the sniper rifles, and 1 MOA between the regular rifles.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

I hope they told you that but set it completely the opposite way around, because I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in game.

Would be worth a laugh when they finally "fixed" it in a patch.

We're not in kindergarden anymore my friend. If you think the staff at Tripwire Interactive would even as much as think about doing such a thing then you have seriously misjudged them - and it's a lot of hassle for something that aint even fun and will need to be fixed later anyway.

You will find that the guys at Tripwire are as passionate about guns as any of us here, some of them even regularly go shoot these rifles, so some of them will have noted the differences I have spoken about here already.

I have all the faith in the world that the guys at TWI will make their ingame guns perform as accurately as possible according to their real life counterparts.

 

[dsi1]

Quick question: How detailed is the ballistics system compared to this?

 

[Etienne.S]

@Unus - You mentioned the K98 scopes were capable of being more precisely dialed in - do you know if that's been reflected in the game at all? The only footage I've seen with range adjustment was 100m increments, but if I recall correctly it was on a M91/30. Also, I will say that at urban engagement ranges, higher muzzle velocity inside of 400m might be helpful for the 91/30 due to reduced lead required.

@dsi - I haven't played the mod, but I imagine RO2's exterior ballistics will be on par. As for the terminal ballistics, well.. I can't imagine modeling the fragmentation or deformation of the bullet would have any impact unless individual organs or systems were modeled in the body.

 

[Mormegil]

Quick question: How detailed is the ballistics system compared to this?

I recall Wilsonam mentioning in a discussion on the tank ballistics that ambient air temperature would have an effect (presumably on air density). I would guess these would also apply to small arms. We know ROOST had flight time, bullet drop. I'm not sure if we'll see loss of velocity modeled in any way besides less damage over distance.

I understand in ROOST, and maybe in ROHOS, most of these ballistic calcs aren't done at short engagement distances, where they're basically like hit-scan weapons. < 100 meters with rifles or something like that.

As far as terminal ballistics, I recall Ramm mentioning bullet fragmentation subsequent damage would be beyond the scope of the game. He did mention they had a detailed hit box model, where damage is calculated on if you hit muscle, organ, and/or bone.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

@Unus - You mentioned the K98 scopes were capable of being more precisely dialed in - do you know if that's been reflected in the game at all? The only footage I've seen with range adjustment was 100m increments, but if I recall correctly it was on a M91/30.

I don't know, but it would great if they added this more precise capability.

Also, I will say that at urban engagement ranges, higher muzzle velocity inside of 400m might be helpful for the 91/30 due to reduced lead required.

A higher MV will help in terms of lead required for moving targets, but the difference inside 400 would be very small regardless, and I don't think it will noticable. But rest assured that what'ever difference there is in reality, it is going to be ingame thanks to using the correct MV's and BC's

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

As far as terminal ballistics, I recall Ramm mentioning bullet fragmentation subsequent damage would be beyond the scope of the game. He did mention they had a detailed hit box model, where damage is calculated on if you hit muscle, organ, and/or bone.

Well, to my knowledge, Tripwire may not incorporate vast amounts of Terminal Ballistics into the game, but for the base damage value of a Weapon or Ammunition they do look at how the round performs. By this I mean the damage ratios between different calibers coincide well with how most of them perform in tissue. They did not use such a simple formula as "Kinetic Energy" to differentiate damage, a brief look over the damage values in RO:1 will make that obvious.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Sorry, completely missed your post Panzer Jager, hence why I answer back so late.

Thanks for the info Unus Maybe during the Beta we can look into this kind of stuff - downrange drop and weapon spread - and see if Tripwire's got it about right.

Yeah that could be quite fun But I do know that the K98k's spread will be smaller, that has been confirmed by a dev already, so they will be keeping it true to reality. But it would be interesting to see if we can note the difference anyway

I mean, yea, the Mosins shouldn't be as accurate as the Kar98ks, but atleast they're right in implementing that the chosen Sniper variants are more accurate than standard Rifles.
It's probably for balance that the Mosins are as accurate as the Kar98ks.

Probably.

 

[SurgeonPredator]

First post, long time player of RO and a competitive long range shooter IRL.

Since I pre-ordered a hard copy of RO2 I didn't play the beta. I saw this thread and am glad so see some guys on here share the same enthusiasm for long range shooting.

I shot a K98k and a shortened version of a Mosin, but no sniper variant (those are really hard to find, most of them are scam and not geniuine).

The facts have been mentioned many times in this thread so I won't jump on the train to say the german rifle/ammo combination was superior, the weather equalized the advantages of the round a bit, but the german scopes were and still are the best you can buy for the money (I own a S&B 5-25x56 scope and no asian, american or no-name scope can reach the german quality, commercial over).

Back in the days the germans built state-of-the-art optical systems which were superior to the russian PU scopes in clarity and reliability.

However, the cold climate in Stalingrad made it more difficult to actually dial in dope and the german snipers, according to some books in my shelf, worked with hold overs/lead (the threads in the scope had tight tolerances to make them accurate, but the cold weather messed up the functionality). The russian weapons were, and still are, made to work no matter what. So even their scopes, with their optical and re-zero disadvantages, worked in sub-zero temperature.

But there is another thing I'd like to know, because that was not discussed earlier:

Range estimation. The german Absehen 1, or german post, was calibrated to estimate range with the reticle. The width of a mans shoulders would fit in the gap between the post and the horizontal line at 100m, two "shoulders" at 200 and so on. That way the sniper was able to quickly estimate the distance and apply his hold-over/under dope for that distance. With the elevation knob in RO2, it'd be a great addition to have the calibrated reticle in-game. You could use another tool the snipers had back in the days (especially on a server without death messages/kill range).

If you guys want proof for that statement, I have to dig out the book and take a shot, but I hope you guys believe the newb (on the forum),

Looking forward to play RO2. Maybe I get the chance to cover some of your backs with precision fire...or duell with a russian "Zaitsev"

Predator out!