Who agrees with my opnion on beserker?

[sph34r]

And now you're the condescending one.

See, that's the thing. You're using the word because you want to win, I'm just being terse with you. Really, I don't care how I look like to other people here, for all intents and purposes "you've won." You can relax now.

Maybe it's a last word thing.

 

[9_6]

See, that's the thing. You're using the word because you want to win, I'm just being terse with you. Really, I don't care how I look like to other people here, for all intents and purposes "you've won." You can relax now.

Maybe it's a last word thing.

No I use the word because it actually is condescending to me >=(
Just like the "last word" thing, by the way which essentially tries to shut me up in a patronizing way.
This is pretty strong coming from someone trying to "end" this with snide oneliners.

I don't want to "win" and find it pretty offensive that you'd assume that, I wanted to apologize but wasn't sure what exactly for since I barely communicated to you but you sure are making that needlessly hard for me.
What the hell would I "win" anyway? I'm making myself look ridiculous for crying out loud. No one "wins" anything here.
If anything, I've "lost" yet again if we have to use those terms. Thank you so much.

I'm so tired of this.
Look, I'm sorry for whatever I have done to you at whatever point in time.
That was probably not my intention but I can't tell if you don't tell me what you mean.
And no, you don't need to do that anymore.

None of this was necessary. Sorry for the spam.

 

[nutterbutter]

yes, you can argue that it's over-powered, but under the right circumstances and player, any perk can be considered over-powered.

Sorry. Doesn't work like that. Drop any other perk, other than medic, on an suicidal or HoE map with 200+ specimens left to go and that perk is screwed. Every other perk doesn't have the speed to build time to reload and heal. They will be overwhelmed eventually.

 

[RUSTIK]

Your challenge was to beat any game solo, no restrictions on play style save for win bombing the patriarch.

no, don't bomb him is what I said unless I just don't understand what your trying to convey

EDIT* I was wrong for saying this "Running hardly fails in solo" not true really. Other than that you are trying to make me say things I didn't say.

First off people Don't just post everyday random pub crap games on youtube those videos are there because they are a feet of excellence.

second- "The point of the challenge was to show people they will die in solo many times trying to kite, because it's not as easy as it looks on paper"

I said this because I know this is what people will do in solo and will most likely die a lot, I never said you had to.

Third- "Like I said try holing up in solo, no kiting, you die 90% of the time even with the reductions you mentioned"

this is not referring to the challenge, I just said try it.

Fourth- where are your screen shots sir?

 

[Spicy]

Fourth- where are your screen shots sir?

There were a ton of them when Hell on Earth first came out. If I recall correctly though, a good number of the chest-beaters did it on West London. XD

 

[nutterbutter]

You can say that the berserker is strong because he can't be grabbed, has damage resistance, etc, but the real reason for his strength and why you can't realistically play anything else other than medic in kiting games is solely because of the speed bonus. If every class was 20% faster you would see kiting demolitions, commandos, firebugs, supports, and sharpshooters as well. This is his real strength, and why you don't see berserkers with camping squads very often. Aside from situational tanking (which medic can probably do better) a gun is almost always more effective than a melee weapon.

The magnetic clot grab is huge. It wasn't that big of a deal before because it could be broken. I used to always try to play right in the middle of the action because it was great fun and a challenge. Not any more. Some clot grabs me from a behind and I'm in the middle of a reload or I can't spin around in time, I'm dead. In my opinion, the magnetic clot grab is close to game-breaking.

Speed is the obvious benefit to the zerker, but don't forget that the zerker uses perked weapons that do not require any upkeep or ammo. The berzerker can continually fire perked weapons from first spawn til the Patty is dead. No pausing. No reloading. No switching to a lesser weapon. And carrying plenty of unperked projectile weapons that a generally good enough.

 

[scary ghost]

no, don't bomb him is what I said unless I just don't understand what your trying to convey

First off people Don't just post everyday random pub crap games on youtube those videos are there because they are a feet of excellence.

second- "The point of the challenge was to show people they will die in solo many times trying to kite, because it's not as easy as it looks on paper"

I said this because I know this is what people will do in solo and will most likely die a lot, I never said you had to.

Third- "Like I said try holing up in solo, no kiting, you die 90% of the time even with the reductions you mentioned"

this is not referring to the challenge, I just said try it.

Forth- where are your screen shots sir?

You want to know the secret to those games? It was everyone agreeing to follow a set route. That's it, simple. Also, most of those games had random pubs in it. How do I know all this? Because I was in every one of those games.

I never agreed to your challenge. Like I said realer, solo is completely different and easier game than 6 man and a poor way to measure perks. How does anyone providing a screen cap of a solo win with zerker and you being unable to provide a screen cap of a solo win with any other perk prove zerker is OP? It doesn't because any perk can beat solo with the right weapon combination. Not to mention, why 3 maps? Why not all stock maps? Why not 5 maps? On top of that, how well a perk fairs against the patriarch solo is rather stupid given that he is designed to be taken down through a team effort. Your challenge in itself has some serious flaws, making it rather silly and meaningless. The only way to compare the perks amongst each other is in a 6 man team because...wait for it...that's how the game was designed.

Here's an example of how flawed your challenge is. Jester soloed old suicidal (same stats as HoE) with firebug. According to your criteria, berserker isn't OP because another perk soloed the map, which is simply a false conclusion.

Screen cap:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=655542&postcount=14

His take on how he did it:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=666855&postcount=20

------

Also here is a little debating 101 for you. Since you are the one who believes zerker isn't "so easy", the onus is on you to show that, not for people who don't agree with your assertion to show the opposite. So please, show us how zerker is not "so easy" with a video or something. I've already given you plenty of videos showing how zerker is super easy and forgiving.

 

[RUSTIK]

The only way to compare the perks amongst each other is in a 6 man team because...wait for it...that's how the game was designed.

The game comes with single player too so I think it is just as valid. If there is a map I have trouble beating on solo I go online to beat it with friends because it is easier as a team maybe its just me but it is easier online than solo regaurdless of the percents and numbers. That is why I posted that challenge, it would test individual players their abilities with the zerk on the most even grounds that way I could come in and do the same map without zerk and beat it showing other perks are just as effective. But I do see your point about online differences, it really comes down to if you think solo is valid or not.

Here is what I say, scary ghost do me and the other KF players a favor and code a mutator that actually simulates online difficulty unlike faked players where I can test my skills with perks as they would be online, and then we can continue our debate if I can win with zerk and not any other perk I will admit zerk is OP.
I think I saw you work with code correct?

 

[Steeps]

The magnetic clot grab is huge. It wasn't that big of a deal before because it could be broken. I used to always try to play right in the middle of the action because it was great fun and a challenge. Not any more. Some clot grabs me from a behind and I'm in the middle of a reload or I can't spin around in time, I'm dead. In my opinion, the magnetic clot grab is close to game-breaking.

Speed is the obvious benefit to the zerker, but don't forget that the zerker uses perked weapons that do not require any upkeep or ammo. The berzerker can continually fire perked weapons from first spawn til the Patty is dead. No pausing. No reloading. No switching to a lesser weapon. And carrying plenty of unperked projectile weapons that a generally good enough.

I don't think the clot grab is as devastation for a berserker as it is for some other perks. With a perked katana's speed and damage increase you can pretty much get out of any situation with just a few swings, clot grab or not. I don't see this as vital for the berserker compared to some other perks.

The point I was trying to make is that you can nerf anything on the zerker minus the speed and he will still be able to kite. Get rid of his damage resistance and it will certainly be tougher and take much longer (since you can't really get dirty), but it is still very possible. Get rid of the clot grab, but as I said zerkers will still be able to get out of messes pretty easily. I guess getting rid of the increased melee damage can also be game-changing since they would not longer be able to stun scrakes, but I'm pretty sure that most people here would not agree with that one. Other perks with a speed increase might not be able to kite with the easy of a zerker, but it would still be possible.

Also #67 I think it's more of the forgiving aspect than the easy one. Technically every perk is "easy", since success at the game favors experience and knowledge of the game's mechanics over super aim and movement. It's just that if you screw up as zerker you're probably fine. If you screw up a few times you might die, but chances are your teammates will be able to clean up for you. Screwing up as little as once as another perk in a stationary game could potentially be as bad as game over for your squad.

 

[Vulchan]

It seems that people are frustrated with kiting and the rage timer exploit (captain obvious here). My proposed solutions are:

1: Running forwards allows full speed movement, while running backwards reduces your speed anywhere from 10%-20% for all perks. This change should balance out the classes when kiting as a berserker needs to face the zed swarm for more time than say a demo would have to, possibly allowing the zerk to get swarmed from all angles.
2: Hmmm, this is a tough one. How about TWI fixes the fleshpound rage reset exploit!

Problem solved.

 

[TheBoobyTrap]

If he is so easy to be I challange an HoE SOLO round to the ones who call "op".

-three maps of your choice to play (no customs). Must be a long game!

-use berserker obviously.

-use berzerker all the way through, even the Patriarch!

-I want a screen shot of your victory with the scoreboard up on all three maps.

-If this is done I will do the same three maps with a different perk and post my screen shots of victory. The perk I use will be used through the whole map, no switching to demo at Pat for pipes and that sissy stuff.

If the berserker is op you should be able to provide us with screen shots and I should not be able to. Simple honest challenge.

I will go the step further.

My challenge is to solo HoE with faked players mutator. So i basically have to kill every specimen in a 6 player ratio. If i win then the zerk is obviously OP.

 

[RUSTIK]

Here's an example of how flawed your challenge is. Jester soloed old suicidal (same stats as HoE) with firebug. According to your criteria, berserker isn't OP because another perk soloed the map, which is simply a false conclusion.

I've already given you plenty of videos showing how zerker is super easy and forgiving.

are you seriously pulling up someone else's pictures?...
get your own on solo this is rediculous I watched your videos and you exploit the fleshpound rage reset, I will make this clear once, I have NEVER used that myself and if you think you are good with berzerker for doing so your a joke. Allowing the flesh pound to reset makes you think Berserker is op, but no it is your use of that bug that makes players op. The FP needs to be fixed, and if it was this thread would say "berserker needs a buff" because people would die. Again playing online 6 players is easier. The team watches your back for you and you have a personal medic, there is always a team to be there when you die. The times you came close to death in the videos your TEAM saved you. Where are the videos of a whole support team, medic team sharp team Firebug, commando, demo teams?! they would pwn and I guarantee they would take less damage holing up than zerkers do "kiting". any perk in numbers is stronger than a group of different perks. Take all AA12s and face Pat he will die just as fast as with the chainsaws. If you were the only berzerker and the rest of the team died, you go on to solo the waves then you might have an argument. Also if the berzerker was always on top of the score board you would have an argument but this is all opinion isn't it? The reason I want solo pictures because it is harder than online and when you don't have a team saving your butt or helping out with kills, this is a pure environment for testing a lone perk against other perks without help. We can talk numbers all day but what really matters is results in game.

 

[scary ghost]

The game comes with single player too so I think it is just as valid

Sandbox mode is there too, but no one would agree that it is valid because that's not how the game was designed. Likewise, the game was not balanced around solo play. Take everyone's favorite perk, the commando. Commandos (and firebugs) are supposed to struggle against fleshpounds and scrakes and in a full 6 man game, they do. You don't see commandos trying to solo a 6 man HoE fleshpound or scrake unless they absolutely have to. Instead, the commandos clear the trash so the demo/sharpshooter/support can get a clean look at the scrake and fleshpound. However, in a solo game the commando can easily gun down every scrake and fleshpound he sees despite those 2 specimens being his weakness due to them having far less hp.

The same applies to using an off perk xbow against scrakes and fleshpounds on HoE. TWI gave them extra xbow resistance on suicidal and HoE to deter people from using an off perk crossbow against them. You can get away with it on solo, because you only need 2 and 3 bolts respectively. In a full game however, you need 5 and 8 respectively, which is why you only see sharpshooters using the xbow against them in a full game.

This is why solo is not a valid way to compare perks. The strengths and weaknesses for each perk do not apply when you're alone.

------

When you play with a mutator that properly scales specimen hp, you'll quickly see that only support, sharpshooter and berserker have the versatility to handle everything thrown their way. The difference is berserker has super speed, +40% resistance, and unlimited ammo while the sharpshooter has to consistently nail head shots and the support needs to be wary about getting surrounded and might have ammo issues depending on the number of specimens.

I will go the step further.

My challenge is to solo HoE with faked players mutator. So i basically have to kill every specimen in a 6 player ratio. If i win then the zerk is obviously OP.

And if you fail, you are kicked from KFGT .

 

[scary ghost]

are you seriously pulling up someone else's pictures?...
get your own on solo this is rediculous I watched your videos and you exploit the fleshpound rage reset, I will make this clear once, I have NEVER used that myself and if you think you are good with berzerker for doing so your a joke. Allowing the flesh pound to reset makes you think Berserker is op, but no it is your use of that bug that makes players op. The FP needs to be fixed, and if it was this thread would say "berserker needs a buff" because people would die. Again playing online 6 players is easier. The team watches your back for you and you have a personal medic, there is always a team to be there when you die. The times you came close to death in the videos your TEAM saved you. Where are the videos of a whole support team, medic team sharp team Firebug, commando, demo teams?! they would pwn and I guarantee they would take less damage holing up than zerkers do "kiting". any perk in numbers is stronger than a group of different perks. Take all AA12s and face Pat he will die just as fast as with the chainsaws. If you were the only berzerker and the rest of the team died, you go on to solo the waves then you might have an argument. Also if the berzerker was always on top of the score board you would have an argument but this is all opinion isn't it? The reason I want solo pictures because it is harder than online and when you don't have a team saving your butt or helping out with kills, this is a pure environment for testing a lone perk against other perks without help. We can talk numbers all day but what really matters is results in game.

Protip #1: I pulled up jester's pic because he had done it already and it proves my point that your challenge is silly and meaningless. Firebugs are supposed to struggle against scrakes and fleshpound, but they don't in solo. Firebugs do not run rambo in a 6 man game killing everything around them because they can't, and aren't supposed to. You want to know what else is different in solo play? You self heal for 50 hp, and your healing is not interrupted if you are attacked. That is a pretty big difference. If you can't see that the game is completely different between 1 and 6 man, and designed around 6 man play, then there is nothing else that need be said. The game was not balanced around solo play.

This was uploaded long ago, but again, it proves my point about how flawed your challenge is. Level 0 medic beats old suicidal solo thereofre, according to your logic a level 0 medic is just as good as a level 6 [perk] on suicidal/HoE . The 50hp self heal is very handy in solo.

Spoiler!

YouTube - ‪Killing Floor - Soloing Foundry on Suicidal with Level 0 Perks Part 3 (Short Length)‬‏
YouTube - ‪Killing Floor - Soloing Foundry on Suicidal with Level 0 Perks Part 2 (Short Length)‬‏
YouTube - ‪Killing Floor - Soloing Foundry on Suicidal with Level 0 Perks Part 1 (Short Length)‬‏

Protip #2: I put those videos up because you claimed team kiting results in "death and defeat".

Protip #3: If fleshpounds were buffed, then 6 zerkers would axe gang bang them instead and kill them in about 3 seconds, like we did in the offices video. I guess you didn't watch all of them did you? Even if the timer were made to be paused, zerkers can still melee fleshpounds, all it does is make it harder to do so. But sure, send us videos of an all [perk] team taking "less damage holing up than zerkers do 'kiting'". Supports can do it, so can sharpshooters but I would love to see the all medic one. Yup, medics can totally hold their ground no problems just like a support can.

Protip #4: Please learn the difference between an exploit and a coding oversight. Entangler and I have explained how the fleshpound rage works countless times with some input from Benjamin. TWI has been well aware that the timer resets since they added auto raging back in 2009. For whatever reason, they have left it as is.

 

[Darox]

Sorry. Doesn't work like that. Drop any other perk, other than medic, on an suicidal or HoE map with 200+ specimens left to go and that perk is screwed. Every other perk doesn't have the speed to build time to reload and heal. They will be overwhelmed eventually.

But that's wrong.
You can do it just fine with Sharpshooter.

What lets Berserkers solo kite is the fact that they can reliably take on any Zed and eliminate it quickly. The movespeed, clot/bloat immunity and damage resistance just make it easier. The major threats to kiting are gorefasts, husks, fleshpounds and STUFF IN FRONT OF YOU. Being able to stun and sidestep backtracking scrakes or quickly eliminating forward spawn sirens is the key, not outpacing the mob of clots sitting in your tail.

Incidentally, this is why medics CAN'T solo 6 man HoE, because they have no good way to kill 6xhp Scrakes. Not being able to oneshot husks and sirens hurts them pretty badly as well.

 

[RUSTIK]

Firebugs are supposed to struggle against scrakes and fleshpound, but they don't in solo.


This was uploaded long ago, but again, it proves my point about how flawed your challenge is. Level 0 medic beats old suicidal solo


If fleshpounds were buffed, then 6 zerkers would axe gang bang them instead and kill them in about 3 seconds, like we did in the offices video. I guess you didn't watch all of them did you?


Please learn the difference between an exploit and a coding oversight. Entangler and I have explained how the fleshpound rage works countless times with some input from Benjamin.

I will tackle these in order and I will be nice this time.

yes scrakes are a joke for firebug but not Flesh pounds (on solo) this is what it takes to kill an FP full health solo firebug, throw a fire grenade down and set it off on his feet then empty a canister to finish him off now he will hit you once taking away your armor though, if two of them come... just shoot and pray, the thing is in solo you have to deal with your weaknesses not a team mate.

that video can not be used against me because of the date, the xbow had 40 bolts, higher hs multiplier, lighter, less expensive etc that was when the game was broken i'm talking now in this current version, also it was on short mode no beasting either he was second or less away from death.


Yes I did watch the office video and I was so proud of you for that!!!
but common it was only because you had to


bug or exploit it is wrong however we word it, honestly yesterday was the first time I had ever seen it I didn't know what it was.


extras: sandbox is in the game but with no perks or achievements, solo has both, the 50 healing points are given because it is harder in solo and so far they have not done enough tweaking on solo to make it easier than online still. I know there is a difference between 1 and 6 players I shouldn't even have to say that, and at this point it comes down to our opinions on which is harder i'm willing to agree on disagreeing at this point because it seems our own personal experiences tell us we are both right. Lastly I do not think anybody could do the mutator I described to you, may be one or two players extra but past that impossibility may set in.

 

[nutterbutter]

I don't think the clot grab is as devastation for a berserker as it is for some other perks. With a perked katana's speed and damage increase you can pretty much get out of any situation with just a few swings, clot grab or not. I don't see this as vital for the berserker compared to some other perks.

Zerker doesn't suffer from the magnetic clot grab.

The point I was trying to make is that you can nerf anything on the zerker minus the speed and he will still be able to kite.

I agree 100% http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=47088 Advantage #1 right there

 

[iburnstuff]

It's nice to see majority of you guys seem to agree with me...

It ruins the game for me. Kite teams troll me as much as chainsaw the pat teams. I've bloody had enough of it

What now? Kite teams troll you? If your playing a public game and the teams kiting, either join them and kite or leave. No ones forcing you to kite in a game. Some people like camping, others like kiting, if you really have issues with kiting than play with people you know. The games been made so that you get a choice between camp and kite its that simple. As to chainsaw pat, some people want to play it safe, others like the the danger and adrenalin rush, play with friends if you hate it so much, [}{] is suppose to be hardcore right? Kiting isnt an assured victory either, it all depends on the map, narrow corridors are death traps for zerkers, 2 sirens there, a mob of tough guys behind you and its most likely your end. Zerkers do have weaknesses, if you choose to call him OP by pointing out his strengths and completely ignoring his weaknesses than thats hardly a valid argument. Zerking too easy for you? Play on maps that doesnt suit him well than.

 

[John BigBoutie]

Sorry. Doesn't work like that. Drop any other perk, other than medic, on an suicidal or HoE map with 200+ specimens left to go and that perk is screwed. Every other perk doesn't have the speed to build time to reload and heal. They will be overwhelmed eventually.

Nutterbutter, my good man, that would be the wrong circumstance. I think my point (although who can be sure anymore) is that each perk has it's strengths and weaknesses. This game has been around for awhile and the balancing has been constantly tweaked and adjusted -- the result is (in my opinion) a very well balanced game and no one perk is overpowered to the point of bad gameplay. KF is fun AND challenging, regardless of which perk you prefer to play. And that is the point of gaming, non? Knowing how to dispatch zeds by using the fleshpound rage counter to your advantage or gang-axing scrakes from behind till they bleep-bleep-bloop is using knowledge to win the game.

...and knowing is half the battle.

 

[John BigBoutie]

kiting too easy? then try

kiting too easy? then try

on maps that doesnt suit him well than.

In general, this comment sums up my feelings on this thread.

Try kiting on offices or biotics lab HoE.