Tank turret & gun control (POLL!)

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Ask anyone who have been in the BFE with me, you'd be surprised

Well then you're one of the few treadheads with a preference for the mouse control system I'd presume. I just can't figure out how, as a treadhead, that mouse control ever satisfied you; Esp. not if you've ever done some real life gun laying by use of hand wheels and foot pedal control before.

 

[Fedorov]

Well then you're one of the few treadheads with a preference for the mouse control system I'd presume. I just can't figure out how, as a treadhead, that mouse control ever satisfied you; Esp. not if you've ever done some real life gun laying by use of hand wheels and foot pedal control before.

I just didn't feel any increase in immersion when the system changed to WASD, I see your point, I really do, but in practice I just didn't notice anything.

So the immersion of WASD must be something subjective to some people, cause the extra bother of the system (at least to me) didn't come with any immersive benefits.

I really did love tanking back in Combined Arms, and I dislike it now in Ostfront, but thats another story, unrelated to the controls, and more related to lag behavior, bugs and hitboxes.

Edit:
This is one of the things that IMO, could be different in the realism - relaxed realism settings.

 

[Oldih]

I don't believe that the true treadheads in here are going to be satisfied with the mouse for turret control.

Define true treadhead.

No offence Unus but sadly you're bit more and more leaning towards that sad dictator part you've brought up couple of times, as the "it's not realistic" argument is nearly impossible to argue against without either resulting parroting the same line again or even indirectly bring up weird comparasion about threadheads, CoD\BF crew or so.

(No you did not really use them as insult or anything but it's bit tricky to make up argument either from personal point of view or even if it's representing some group if it ends up indirectly in calling names.)

I just can't figure out how, as a treadhead, that mouse control ever satisfied you; Esp. not if you've ever done some real life gun laying by use of hand wheels and foot pedal control before.

Then why not leave it as it is and move on with the argument? Enthusiasim and passion are nice things especially for a common goal but this is starting to resemble waddling in mud right now.

 

[RiccardoTheBeAst]

Oh for the love of God, please refer to Sheepdip's answer above...

I read that post

The point is that he's simply saying the possible reasons to keep this info "top secret"....i don't understand what help to the argument it gives....

I as well as others have responded to this point before, here is a similar answer to my last:

First off I am still going to assume that both options will be equally hard/easy to use but even if that is not the case it is easy enough to introduce simple unobtrusive limitations in the use of a mouse to aim to balance the two systems. Even if it turns out after testing out the current system that the mouse is significantly easier to use, the situation can be easily remedied without going around taking options away from the player before we have even seen how those options work.

For me at least it is not a matter of wanting an easier option but wanting an option at all. I assume use of the mouse will be rather popular whether or not it is any easier then the keyboard. The people who want the option should not be dismissed because you don't want to consider any alternative to taking away options just because they might not work perfectly the first time they are put in.

Have you ever played a game with mouse-control for the turret of tanks? Crysis? Battleground Europe? Warrock (lol)? CoD WaW*?

The phrase "we don't know how it'll work" is a scapegoat, aiming with mouse is absolutely easier, and you know that. Just try one of the games above.

Also in BE, that is a realistic game where the suspensions movement is simulated very well, firing while moving is relatively easy. I got killed by enemy tanks (Crusader and Stuart for first) while they were moving, and two times i killed a 6 pdr AT guns from my tank while moving in 2nd-3rd gear on bumpy terrains (and one of that time, i was moving diagonally on the sloped terrain of an hill).

So, also with WASD it'll be possible to fire while moving, but only at low speed and with decent terrain (but on this point it's better to wait the beta, we don't know how the "terrain-suspensions-speed" relation will work and if it's implemented).


*= i've only tried the beta, just to point out that i didn't buy this game

Geeze, people are so sensitive these days

Let me rephrase myself then:

I don't believe that the true treadheads in here are going to be satisfied with the mouse for turret control.

As for the comment about refugees, how many individuals haven't we seen so far come here and talk about balance instead of realism etc.? I've lost count, but these people have completely missed the point of what this game is all about.

I have to say that defining them "refugees" was a little bit hard, but i must agree with the last phrase.

 

[Oldih]

Have you ever played a game with mouse-control for the turret of tanks? Crysis? Battleground Europe? Warrock (lol)? CoD WaW*?

The phrase "we don't know how it'll work" is a scapegoat, aiming with mouse is absolutely simplier, and you know that. Just try one of the game above.

Yes it's obviously simpler, but a bigger interesting point is that usually things work in combination. You can drive at quite fast speed in RO (especially in DH) and still shoot relatively accurately from the move as long as the terrain is right. In RO this is tricky as it usually isn't and the shells travel way too slowly, but in DH it's by no means impossible if just rare thing to do. Coordination is one thing but it still doesn't negate that fact the guns have perfect accuracy making it more than possible given proper circumstances.

Of course there's no damm idea so far how suspension and other things are modelled but let's make a simple presumption for the sake of argument: tank guns won't have perfect accuracy while you retain perfect mouse control. It would favour unrealistic gun-ho behaviour but it would not guarantee super awesome sniper ninja skills at range, practically making it less of a problem on gameplay terms. Let's make another presumption: you do not have perfectly 100% finetuned super-control of the turret, so making finetuning has some delays, or making sudden change in the travers. This would mean target tracking is less efficient, unless it's at close range. Practically not as big problem, even when it still would mean on basic level that mouse aiming would make it easier than keyboard.

Currently the biggest problem of the argument of mouse vs keyboard besides the basic realism idea seems to be more about player's own ability to maintain precision, not variables found in the game. Sure player precision has an impact, but since there's no such thing as perfectly accurate weapon combining the two together is something to look at, rather than focus at the single problem. As I mentioned before the keyboard thing does not negate the fact guns are perfectly accurate. It is possible -- but rare -- that you can score relatively accurate hits at range while moving ramming speed. At the same time it is a potential possibility that if they restrict mouse in a way it does not allow that 120% precision for the player and also has additional things modelled (within reason) in game, it would make controls more capable of it but practical results could possibly say something diffrent.

I'm still parroting my old post that for this reason and the lack of details I am not just yet willing to condemn mouse control even due I prefer keyboard.

 

[cameron.]

The only other game I have played with controllable tanks has been ArmA2/OA and in even in those games despite there being no turret speed limit that I know of, the only thing keeping the keyboard from being as useful as a mouse was fact that while using the keyboard there seems to be a minimum turn angle which makes aiming at distant targets tricky.

In any case the "we don't know how it will work yet" argument is indeed valid so long as you assume they won't use the same control method as something like crisis or cod which seems an odd thing for them to do (to further clarify when i say control method I also refer to how the movement of the mouse or key-presses translate into moving the turret not just the use mouse or keyboard itself).

I haven't been trying to say that there is no possibility for discrepancy but rather that if there is still a notable difference in ability between control schemes when the beta comes around it can still be easily fixed by imposing some limits on mouse or keyboard use.

also : The mouse is more realistic as it comes closer to accurately simulating having to move your arm (for the manual turret cranking)

 

[Dietrich Graf]

Just because you got in a tank once or twice in the last five years in RO/DH/MN doesn't make a you a tread head.

I know most in the Jolly Rodger community support WASD and even joystick, but not the mouse feature. We all know they are tread heads to the max.

Personally I can't stand when the infantry folks want us tread heads to make compromises for the "BF/COD" group. Ok, well then lets implement auto aim and cross hairs so RO will be more "accessible."

 

[cameron.]

My entire point was that it shouldn't change anything for people who don't want to use the mouse.

 

[Oldih]

Personally I can't stand when the infantry folks want us tread heads to make compromises for the "BF/COD" group. Ok, well then lets implement auto aim and cross hairs so RO will be more "accessible."

RO2 has mantling feature which has been in CoD far before RO2 therefore it is a more accessible CoD blasphemy that doesn't deserve to be played. So it's fair to presume other parts of the game are going to be also CoD\BF blasphemy for the sake of appeasement, isn't it?

(Oh yeah and let's not forget IS zoom and gazillion other features that as individual features as presented in other games are complete set of aids.)

 

[hockeywarrior]

RO2 has mantling feature which has been in CoD far before RO2 therefore it is a more accessible CoD blasphemy that doesn't deserve to be played. So it's fair to presume other parts of the game are going to be also CoD\BF blasphemy for the sake of appeasement, isn't it?

(Oh yeah and let's not forget IS zoom and gazillion other features that as individual features as presented in other games are complete set of aids.)

True. And let's not forget that just because the game offers mouse aiming doesn't necessarily mean that it feels just like arcade shooters like BF2 and Crysis. From what I see in the videos, the turret has a slower turn speed (by far) than what a user is able to move the mouse.

I still voted for WSAD in the poll, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to trying they way they set it up. I think offering an option for both would be the best way to appease people, given how overly passionate everyone seemingly is on this issue ...

 

[Colt .45 killer]

If the mouse lets you move the turret slower than the kb, or at angles easier, then it very likely would offer a benefit. As a gunner if offered both I would probably use kb to get to target and mouse to hone on the target. Aiming with a mouse is something almost all people now understand and 'get' with a kb feels more rustic and lower tech ( atleast to me ) it also requires more coridnation.

I really couldnt care which, chances are is that if the controls on the real tank were a turn and seperate gun elevation control then KB would be more realistic because it represents two seperate controls you have to manually combine.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Still trying to figure out why refugees was such a harsh word.... oh well, I shall walk in shame forever

 

[Grabbed_by_the_Spetsnaz]

Some one said that tanks have two gears right?
So how about we use both? WASD for the fast gear and mousey for the slower, more presses gear. That way you don't have to drag along your mouse over the whole desk to turn 90' but you don't have to may w and s in order to align your turret.

 

[RiccardoTheBeAst]

Still trying to figure out why refugees was such a harsh word.... oh well, I shall walk in shame forever

Come on! Don't do the victim, yes, in your post "refugees" looked harsh, but it's just an impression, on internet everyone can say:

F*ck you (i'm joking and i'm happy )

F*ck you (i'm angry with you! )

F*ck you (i'm disappointed )

We cannot understand your humor and the purpose/meaning of word on internet...anyway, sorry, i interpreted wrongly your "refugees", it isn't an harsh word after all

Some one said that tanks have two gears right?
So how about we use both? WASD for the fast gear and mousey for the slower, more presses gear. That way you don't have to drag along your mouse over the whole desk to turn 90' but you don't have to may w and s in order to align your turret.

Eh?

I still voted for WSAD in the poll, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to trying they way they set it up. I think offering an option for both would be the best way to appease people, given how overly passionate everyone seemingly is on this issue ...

Again, there's the competitiveness problem.....if you allow both, then you penalize the players who wants the best realism (WASD). I'm not the person that want to oblige the others to do everything i want, but simply the problem is that allowing the mouse will oblige me (and every WASD fan) to leave the WASD method.

At least, they can force WASD only on hardcore mode, so in "relaxed realism" the players can do what they want and use the mouse. I don't give a f*ck to what happens in "relaxed realism"...they can also fly if they want, but please don't touch the REAL RO2 (realism mode) and, expecially, all the real RO fans

 

[hockeywarrior]

Again, there's the competitiveness problem.....if you allow both, then you penalize the players who wants the best realism (WASD). I'm not the person that want to oblige the others to do everything i want, but simply the problem is that allowing the mouse will oblige me (and every WASD fan) to leave the WASD method.

At least, they can force WASD only on hardcore mode, so in "relaxed realism" the players can do what they want and use the mouse. I don't give a f*ck to what happens in "relaxed realism"...they can also fly if they want, but please don't touch the REAL RO (realism mode) and, expecially, all the real RO fans

See but I seem to get the impression from posters here that WSAD is not only a realistic choice but a functional choice over the mouse. By this I mean that I get the sense that people feel that WSAD is a more effective method of operating a tank gun than the mouse, and is more precise, especially for long range shooting. And I can see the argument there.

By that logic, people who use WSAD are actually at an advantage where as people who use the mouse might be more comfortable but will deal with precision issues. When you look at it this way, you can compare it to the manual bolting vs autobolting argument, which everyone agrees is best solved by offering both options.

 

[Fedorov]

At least, they can force WASD only on hardcore mode, so in "relaxed realism" the players can do what they want and use the mouse. I don't give a f*ck to what happens in "relaxed realism"...they can also fly if they want, but please don't touch the REAL RO (realism mode) and, expecially, all the real RO fans

Last time I checked, the REAL RO had a magazine counter, death messages, and a big white text saying that X side had captured an objective. So I wonder what REAL RO you mean.

 

[Dietrich Graf]

Last time I checked, the REAL RO had a magazine counter, death messages, and a big white text saying that X side had captured an objective. So I wonder what REAL RO you mean.

We are talking about WASD vs. mouse when it comes to tanking.

Most of us realism nuts know that RO's tanking is far from perfect (ping-pong battles with a T34 that my good friends at simHQ like to remind me of), but there are some elements that work much better and add more realism than some of the tank sims on the market.

 

[Fedorov]

We are talking about WASD vs. mouse when it comes to tanking.

Most of us realism nuts know that RO's tanking is far from perfect (ping-pong battles with a T34 that my good friends at simHQ like to remind me of), but there are some elements that work much better and add more realism than some of the tank sims on the market.

I wasn't quoting him about WASD, I was quoting him about game modes, and he was saying that "Harcore Realism mode" is what RO was, which is completely false, for the reasons I mentioned above.

 

[RiccardoTheBeAst]

We are talking about WASD vs. mouse when it comes to tanking.

Most of us realism nuts know that RO's tanking is far from perfect (ping-pong battles with a T34 that my good friends at simHQ like to remind me of), but there are some elements that work much better and add more realism than some of the tank sims on the market.

When i want to play in a tank server i always play in JR....DH actually is a RO 1.5 pratically....an evolution towards RO2

In RO T-34 deflects 88mm rounds from King Tiger and Panther deflects SU-100's rounds* lol (etc etc etc)

*= The 10Pz Division versions, but also 5GTA or 7GTK tank servers are plenty of bugs

I wasn't quoting him about WASD, I was quoting him about game modes, and he was saying that "Harcore Realism mode" is what RO was, which is completely false, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Finicky....

I usually refer, in my mind, to DH when i talk about RO realism, forgetting that RO is different (even if the *relatively* wide maps of "Wild bunch old glory server" in RO are really good) or, better, that DH isn't simply a mod but an evolution of the game. A big evolution.

Anyway, in this case my mistake was writing RO instead RO2. Fixed version:

...they can also fly if they want, but please don't touch the REAL RO2, evolution of RO and DH, (realism mode) and, expecially, all the real RO fans

or, at least, what should be this "evolution" in my mind

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Come on! Don't do the victim, yes, in your post "refugees" looked harsh, but it's just an impression, on internet everyone can say:

F*ck you (i'm joking and i'm happy )

F*ck you (i'm angry with you! )

F*ck you (i'm disappointed )

We cannot understand your humor and the purpose/meaning of word on internet...anyway, sorry, i interpreted wrongly your "refugees", it isn't an harsh word after all

Haha, it's alright Ricardo I was just joking

We ofcourse have to respect each others opinions, and I think I made it clear to fedorov that while I strongly disagree with him I still respect his opinion as that, an opinion. He misunderstood what I meant when I mentioned refugees, probably as me refering to him when I really wasn't. All I wanted to point out was that the far majority of the true treadheads won't be satisfied with mouse control, whilst those who just transitioned from games such as CoD & BF won't have any problem with it.

I definitely see Fedorov as a true RO fan, no doubt about it, but I am still skeptical as to wether or not he's one of the true treadheads who pretty much only play the game for the tanking part. But he says he is, so he's apparently just one of the very few who prefer using the mouse. Maybe it's because he's never done some actual real life gun laying before, and as such can't tell what works & feels most like the real thing.

It is my clear conviction that anyone who has tried actual real life gun laying, be it in a tank or with a flak piece, will always prefer the keyboard for simulating the procedure on a computer; and at the same time never be satisfied with or able to see the rationale in using the mouse.