Ok if you JUST use nades, its impossible. I thought the person I was replying to meant "you can't do it with any two nade combo"
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Support Specialist : Balance
- Thread starter sverek
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Ok if you JUST use nades, its impossible. I thought the person I was replying to meant "you can't do it with any two nade combo"
Those "you can blow up fp with 4 nades" states is unclear (or misleading in some people's mind), but somehow they are not totally wrong.
HSG + 4 nade can instan kill fp, and HSG*2 + nade*2 can also do the same (AGAIN, no jumping "trick" is involved).
And clearly some of you haven't play with any good ss, support or demo
.
Judging only by weapon, power (NOT SKILL), support and demo clearly over shine other perks. They instand kill GORUPS and GROUPS of trash or drop their health low enough to one body shot by other perks while spike the big guys health down to as much as a gorefast.
Sharpshooter need to HEADSHOT to meet the effectiveness of support or demo while commando need HEAD SHOT PLUS some body shot. At the same time, support and demo can miss their target and still do enough damage. Area of effect is always better then single target attacks unless the area attack is too weak (which clearly is not the case for support or demo). That's why sirens and husks can lead to most team's wipe.
These are simply facts. Skill, of cos, can overcome some of the weakness, and if you are god-like enough, noting can stop you no matter what weapon you are using. But you cant just judge a perk by what YOU can do with it.
YOU cant use M14 well, then it's underpowered. YOU use commando well, then its fine? Shouldn't we judge things more objective?
And to respond to some myths:
Myth 1: Support need to katana a scrake's head in order to one-shot it with huntingshotgun.
Truth 1: You DONT need to hit the head. If you miss the hunting shotgun blast, even slightly, you fail.
Myth 2: Supprot NEED a katana to solo a 6-man HoE scrake.
Truth 2: You can do it without armour. So my advise is NEVER run away from a raging scrake. Crouch and attack till one of you die is always better. You can actually tank for quite a few seconds before you die. So you give your team a lot of time, which is usually enough for them (or you) to drop that chainsaw guy.
Myth 3: You need at least three nades + two hunting shotgun alt-fire to kill a 6-man HoE fleshpound.
Truth 3: You only need two nades.
Myth 4: You need to use the jumping trick to kill fleshpounds with 3 nades + alt-fire from hunting shotgun.
Truth 4: You dont need to jump even you are using only two nades.
Myth 5: The max. number of nades you can land on a fleshpound without hurinng yourself is 3.
Truth 5: The max. number is 4. With the alt-fire raging the pound, you instan kill it.
Lastly I must add, using any more nade then two on a single fleshpound is just a waste. The whole point of support and demo is only to drop the big guys' health low enough, then anyone who want to kill the fleshpound (or scrake) can kill it (while scrakes you have much more perks who can deal with it).
HSG + 4 nade can instan kill fp, and HSG*2 + nade*2 can also do the same (AGAIN, no jumping "trick" is involved).
And clearly some of you haven't play with any good ss, support or demo
.
Judging only by weapon, power (NOT SKILL), support and demo clearly over shine other perks. They instand kill GORUPS and GROUPS of trash or drop their health low enough to one body shot by other perks while spike the big guys health down to as much as a gorefast.
Sharpshooter need to HEADSHOT to meet the effectiveness of support or demo while commando need HEAD SHOT PLUS some body shot. At the same time, support and demo can miss their target and still do enough damage. Area of effect is always better then single target attacks unless the area attack is too weak (which clearly is not the case for support or demo). That's why sirens and husks can lead to most team's wipe.
These are simply facts. Skill, of cos, can overcome some of the weakness, and if you are god-like enough, noting can stop you no matter what weapon you are using. But you cant just judge a perk by what YOU can do with it.
YOU cant use M14 well, then it's underpowered. YOU use commando well, then its fine? Shouldn't we judge things more objective?
And to respond to some myths:
Myth 1: Support need to katana a scrake's head in order to one-shot it with huntingshotgun.
Truth 1: You DONT need to hit the head. If you miss the hunting shotgun blast, even slightly, you fail.
Myth 2: Supprot NEED a katana to solo a 6-man HoE scrake.
Truth 2: You can do it without armour. So my advise is NEVER run away from a raging scrake. Crouch and attack till one of you die is always better. You can actually tank for quite a few seconds before you die. So you give your team a lot of time, which is usually enough for them (or you) to drop that chainsaw guy.
Myth 3: You need at least three nades + two hunting shotgun alt-fire to kill a 6-man HoE fleshpound.
Truth 3: You only need two nades.
Myth 4: You need to use the jumping trick to kill fleshpounds with 3 nades + alt-fire from hunting shotgun.
Truth 4: You dont need to jump even you are using only two nades.
Myth 5: The max. number of nades you can land on a fleshpound without hurinng yourself is 3.
Truth 5: The max. number is 4. With the alt-fire raging the pound, you instan kill it.
Lastly I must add, using any more nade then two on a single fleshpound is just a waste. The whole point of support and demo is only to drop the big guys' health low enough, then anyone who want to kill the fleshpound (or scrake) can kill it (while scrakes you have much more perks who can deal with it).
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Truth 1:*edited* True.
Truth 2 - 100% agree with you. All support needs is to crouch, stop the Scrake and wait a moment for Sharpshooter (or whatever team is using) will stun SC. In thit situation support takes 1, max 2 hits, which isn't lethal with 100% hp even on HoE without an armor. But most of players just run away / retreat back, which leads to SS missing again and again, so Scrake is hitting again and again.
Truths 3 - 5 are correct too.
Truth 2 - 100% agree with you. All support needs is to crouch, stop the Scrake and wait a moment for Sharpshooter (or whatever team is using) will stun SC. In thit situation support takes 1, max 2 hits, which isn't lethal with 100% hp even on HoE without an armor. But most of players just run away / retreat back, which leads to SS missing again and again, so Scrake is hitting again and again.
Truths 3 - 5 are correct too.
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I misunderstood you. But why on Earth are you trying to solo a FP with just grenades? I assumed that you were talking about the widely known combos (which is why this thread exists), the combos in which you could solo a FP with two grenades. If everyone just tried to use grenades, then support wouldn't even be thought to be overpowered at all.
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He wasn't... he was responding to your comment that you could do it. Like you said, you left out the part about what else you need to do ontop of the grenades, which messes up your point in the first place.
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There are few different ways you can do it but the hunting shotgun blast to the head is the most important part of any combo used against scrakes. The main misconception is that you have to do it while crouching. You can do it standing still or jumping. The most important thing is placement of the shot depending on which one you're doing.
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Sorry, dude, you're right. Just checked it out. But that means some pellets must hit the head twice. Math and logic doesn't work here. But anyway, don't you think that one-shot kill Scrake doesn't make Support OP?
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[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=739860&postcount=90[/URL]
TWI was well aware that the berserker could melee fleshpounds and stun scrakes during the KF Beta. They had a chance to make changes to the fp rage mechanics but the only change that was made was to fix the damage accumulator only adding in base damage. They also removed the random damage from melee weapons (except for chainsaw primary) which allowed the berserker to consistently stun scrakes with axe alt fire head shots.
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[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=739860&postcount=90[/URL]
TWI was well aware that the berserker could melee fleshpounds and stun scrakes during the KF Beta and knew what he could do with the buffed stats. They had a chance to make changes to the fp rage mechanics but the only change that was made was to fix the damage accumulator only adding in base damage. Melee weapons were also changed to always deal max damage (except for chainsaw primary) which allowed the berserker to consistently stun scrakes with axe alt fire head shots.
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Here comes some calcs again:
6p HoE SC body hp = 6125, head = 2843.
Alt fire HSg shoots 20 pellets, 50 damage each + 60% perk bonus = 1600.
With headshot multiplier x1.65 = 2640.
So theoretically it's not enough to even decapitate SC. First I thought it's necessary to hit the head with katana, then it's enough to decap him. But practice shows you're not supposed to hit the head with katana.
Even if each pellet first shoots body, then head, and somehow penetration damage penalty isn't applied, then it is 1600 + 2640 = 4240 - and it's far away from Scrake's total health.
So maybe pellets hit the head twice (somehow)...
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I dont think the sk die cos of head health reaches zero. I think its his total health drop to zero. While crouching, most pellets hit THREE times (two body hit boxes and one head hit boxes). But after penetration, pellets should not do full dmage... so.... whatever. The whole point is katana off-perk should not interupt scrakes' attack.
And this can ONLY be done by supports using the katana to interupt a sk's attack WHILE THE SK IS TARGETING THE SUPPORT. If the scrake is stuned (stun, not interupting his attack), the hit boex become dodge, there's no way anyone can do a consistance perfect shot on a scrake. And even if they can, you require someone else to stun it, so that's team work.
As I said, katana should not interupt scrake's attack off-perked. I dont know why they remove the endless interuption but let it stay once. (btw, with the katana, even firebug and commando can kill scrakes harmlessly)
And support can kill fps with 3 nades + HSG since support was there in the game (if you play with difficulty correspond to your level).
Lastly, most of us now have the tesh map. What most people do is they find some guys use trick A, then they use testmap to tesh and say "OH!!! This trick works!!! I must test it in-game now". What the test map should be used is "OH, trick A is found, WHAT can I do with it?"
You KNOW that granades can set off other grenades nearby.
You KNOW that when a fleshpound rage, he stand still for a few seconds.
You KNOW you can do more damage with shotguns several feets away from your targe compare to point blank range.
So... still no one can answer WHY killing fleshpound as support is "new tricks"?
And with so many people here claim that they wont miss the zed's head, and the play so good as commando, WHY M14 is underpower instead of overpower?
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once again....
[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...0&postcount=90[/URL]
Some pellets hit head twice and some hit body then head. The end result is the total health is low enough that the decapitation damage will finish off the scrake.
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Maybe "Auto-HSg" exploit exists from the very beginning too. So that's why it shouldn't be fixed too?
And you don't see nothing wrong about it?
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Ok, after reading thoroughly the last three pages, I've come to the diea that:
1. Get rid of Scrake stun for all perks other than Beserker when using the Katana. Has been stated by numerous people.
2. The resistence to shotguns for larger zeds is interesting, but it should be minimal if implemented. Personally I think it should be left as is.
3. Everyone likes different perks due to different game styles. I myslef love support becuase I started with Doom 1, giving me that run and gun gameplay with the shotty. Run and gun as a team, and you have a good chance of winning, but not really easily.
4. The hit box needs to be fixed so that one shot can't deal multiple lots of damage to one specimen, cos that's a bit weird, I'd doubt that was a deliberate action...
A lot of the people who are worried about Support being overpowered are actually probably too good for Hell On Earth with Support. Try another perk, if you already know you cna win with Support, challnge yourself and go something different. Unless you know alot of the Support "tricks", it's pretty much the same as every other perk. Fire bug and Commando are insane for killing trash, beserker is great for scrakes and overall mobility, Sharp Shooter is great for dealing huge amounts of damage to large zeds before they can lay an attack, but it requires precision. (Hence the name SharpShooter). etc, etc, every perk is good at something, Support apparently has some extra stuff chucked on that makes it a slight cut above the rest. I don't agree with that completely, it's very versatile, but it's so easy o lose all AA12 ammo, even while being conservative, so if you egt grabbed by a swarm of clots, panic and spam, you've lost alot of health and your ammo supply is shot to hell with one mistake. That is Suports weakness. It is Demos weakness. It is the Crossbows weakness. All have low ammo. People have to learn to switch weapons to make sure they don't blow all their big fire power.
As for the Supports carry weight, I think it's fine. As a Support, you carry more, whether this be extra weapons for you or maybe an extra M32 or whatever for a Demo in case they run out. Everyone uses it differently, I personally carry and AA12 and a Hunting Shotty, and predominantly use the Hunting to wipe things out, though reload time is shocking, you just have to make sure you don't fire when you think you may eb too close to a wide range of zeds, cos they will smack you up if you sit there trying to reload.
I think I'm rambling now, but my point is that as a Support (or any perk), you have to develope your gameplay in a way that will benefit your team. Every perk has their benefits and really, I don't think the Support Specialist outshines other perks by a mile, I just think that everyone is picking it at the moment cos it's a lot of fun
1. Get rid of Scrake stun for all perks other than Beserker when using the Katana. Has been stated by numerous people.
2. The resistence to shotguns for larger zeds is interesting, but it should be minimal if implemented. Personally I think it should be left as is.
3. Everyone likes different perks due to different game styles. I myslef love support becuase I started with Doom 1, giving me that run and gun gameplay with the shotty. Run and gun as a team, and you have a good chance of winning, but not really easily.
4. The hit box needs to be fixed so that one shot can't deal multiple lots of damage to one specimen, cos that's a bit weird, I'd doubt that was a deliberate action...
A lot of the people who are worried about Support being overpowered are actually probably too good for Hell On Earth with Support. Try another perk, if you already know you cna win with Support, challnge yourself and go something different. Unless you know alot of the Support "tricks", it's pretty much the same as every other perk. Fire bug and Commando are insane for killing trash, beserker is great for scrakes and overall mobility, Sharp Shooter is great for dealing huge amounts of damage to large zeds before they can lay an attack, but it requires precision. (Hence the name SharpShooter). etc, etc, every perk is good at something, Support apparently has some extra stuff chucked on that makes it a slight cut above the rest. I don't agree with that completely, it's very versatile, but it's so easy o lose all AA12 ammo, even while being conservative, so if you egt grabbed by a swarm of clots, panic and spam, you've lost alot of health and your ammo supply is shot to hell with one mistake. That is Suports weakness. It is Demos weakness. It is the Crossbows weakness. All have low ammo. People have to learn to switch weapons to make sure they don't blow all their big fire power.
As for the Supports carry weight, I think it's fine. As a Support, you carry more, whether this be extra weapons for you or maybe an extra M32 or whatever for a Demo in case they run out. Everyone uses it differently, I personally carry and AA12 and a Hunting Shotty, and predominantly use the Hunting to wipe things out, though reload time is shocking, you just have to make sure you don't fire when you think you may eb too close to a wide range of zeds, cos they will smack you up if you sit there trying to reload.
I think I'm rambling now, but my point is that as a Support (or any perk), you have to develope your gameplay in a way that will benefit your team. Every perk has their benefits and really, I don't think the Support Specialist outshines other perks by a mile, I just think that everyone is picking it at the moment cos it's a lot of fun
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FIX? First thing need to be fix is the HIT BOXES.
And if you really want to fix the double hiting, base damage must increase too. As I said, all of you said support is fine vs trash (at least before these two months). If you remove 90% penetration, you al least take away 20-30% of the damage. How can that still be "fine"?
ANd if they make shotguns actually do most damage at point blank range, EVEN BETTER. And it SHOULD work this way. By just suddenly remove quite a lot of shotguns' power, NO. And the whole point is, NOBODY said support is OP.
They say support is OP ONLY AFTER they know you can interupt scrake's attack AND THEN one-shot it, and it take them TWO YEARS to notice that:
1. granades can set off other grenades nearby.
2. when a fleshpound rage, he stand still for a few seconds.
3. you can do more damage with shotguns several feets away from your targe compare to point blank range.
And feel free to remove the nade bonus too. The whole point of BOTH demo and support to spike the big guys' health to as much as a bloat or gorefast. They dont "need" to kill the bigs.
And if support is op, demo is too.
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Support is OP because of the amount of grenades he has. If he had only 5, he'd only be able to solo 1 FP easily (or 2 FPs with a bit more difficulty). As is, a support can use the trick involving 3 nades (very very easy) and kill3 FPs before he has to worry about anything. That's at least 50% of FPs on wave 10, so I think it's a balance problem.
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Touch my shotguns and I will weld your butt-hole shut after I toss a few nades in for good measure . Seriously guys leave support alone. It has several weaknesses already
1.low ammo
2.slow movement
3. loooooong reloads
4. grenades are more likely to kill the player than it's intended target
5. Point blank with shotgun is worthless!!!
People say a team of supports can mow through HOE. 6 Commandos=win 6 Berzerkers= win 6Firebugs=win 6 demos (lol)= win with a occasional suicide, 6 medics= a very slow and drawn out death past round 5.
I am only posting to be so that TWI can get the side of people who haven't played a thousand or more hours. It's a shame that sea bandits can enjoy what ever version of Killing floor that suits them and paying customers just have to deal with what ever.
. Seriously guys leave support alone. It has several weaknesses already1.low ammo
2.slow movement
3. loooooong reloads
4. grenades are more likely to kill the player than it's intended target
5. Point blank with shotgun is worthless
!!!People say a team of supports can mow through HOE. 6 Commandos=win 6 Berzerkers= win 6Firebugs=win 6 demos (lol)= win with a occasional suicide, 6 medics= a very slow and drawn out death past round 5.
I am only posting to be so that TWI can get the side of people who haven't played a thousand or more hours. It's a shame that sea bandits can enjoy what ever version of Killing floor that suits them and paying customers just have to deal with what ever.
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If support is overpowered everyone should play it, that way teams will win every game instead of dieing!!!
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He can carry tons of stuff so ammo is not going to be a problem unless he buys both HS and AA12.
Its called "normal" movement speed, medic and zerker are the only perks who move quickly, others move the same speed as support. The only thing that may affect is the how much stuff you carry, but to quote Smiff: "a support with 21/24 actually runs faster than a 15/15 commando".
So... no.
AA12 reloads in a second or so, and Hunting Shotgun reload can be cancelled BUT it still reloads so basically thats less than a seconds reload. Hows that slow? The normal shotgun isnt that slow either considering you can shoot beetween each shell reloaded.
lol, fair point but thats only if you get the bug which will hopefully be fixed. So that doesnt count towards balance.
5. Point blank with shotgun is worthless
Not if you are carrying an AA12, and nothing gets near him anyway due his massive firepower.
If everyone goes support they WILL win every game unless they are beginners.
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