Support Specialist : Balance

[Undedd Jester]

It's hard to understand how changing those 2 trivial things makes you think it would go from overpowered to okay.
As far as I am concerned, that would change exactly nothing about how the support plays.

Come on now be fair. Listen to what he is saying before you start ranting at him.

The support is generally agreed to be the most versatile of all classes, I'm sure we can all agree on that. He can take on everything pretty capably, and doesn't really have an outstanding weakness.

Its the same arguement as the Berserker arguement that went on a while back. The Berserker has enough strengths already that he doesn't need the extra buffs given to him. I don't really see why such a debate has to get so heated.



So here is my take on the situation.

Spoiler!

The arguement sverek and indeed a number of people on the forum make agaisnt the Support SPec is, on their own the grenade capacity, the extra weight blocks and the Scrake melee stun aren't inherantly overpowered, its when coupled with the overall power and dexterity the Support already has that it leans him towards being overpowered. All 3 shotguns have attributes that make them powerful and versatile weapons.

Grenades are expensive sure, but they are also pretty powerful now. Money isn't really too big a problem in HoE as long as you are careful with you're spending, and lobbing in a couple of nades to take that Fleshpound down cleanly is a much better investment than losing

 

[outofrealman]

I think I am talking with hard / suicidal level people here. nvm.

edit: feel free to rate down this post. I again could not bring my point... trying to say supporter is supporting, not annihilating all living around.

I am not saying supporting ruining game fun or something. What I am saying, he can do lots of tricks, that other classes can't. Like I wish Commando/Firebug could pull some tricks to deal with scrakes.

I just can't get over that some classes can handle most situation and other can't and have to rely on other classes. It's just wrong imo. Why need SharpShooter, when Support can quickly kill scrake with axe stun + hunting shotgun. Why need Demolition, when Supporter can just hit and blow FP. Why need Commando, when Supporter can clear all small zeds with piercing shotgun.

It just doesn't seem right. I know there no perfect balance, there always will be flows, but I think it possible to bring game near the point, where classes have to rely on each others if they want to survive on HoE.

No... firebug, medic and commando is not a must since 1st day. But if a team dont have ANY ss, support or demo, I personally haven't win a single game unless that's a 6 berserker or 6 medic game.

Rely on each other? Support CANT rambo on 6-man HoE games, mind you. They just cant. And even you REMOVE nade bonus of any kind, AND nerf a little bit damage, it still overshines commando and firebug. Clearly.


And it is REALLY FUNNY that we have NO PROBLEM at all before, when people start to see one or two berserker solo, suddenly "everyone can do it". When people start to say support is OP, then suddenly support is a "one-man army".

 

[C_Gibby]

Why need SharpShooter, when Support can quickly kill scrake with axe stun + hunting shotgun.

Then we ought to get rid of demo. He can still deal with scrakes pretty well by himself. Also, firebug, mando, demo and zerker are designed to deal with crowds. We should remove them altogether!

Why need Demolition, when Supporter can just hit and blow FP.

You missed the sharpie. Demo was included to the game as an afterthought, whilst the support and sharpie were still killing the big guys. Like I said, we may as well remove three of the four large-crowd controllers! No, wait. It's down to play style. If people want to make the same outcome with the weapons that suit their own play style in a way that isn't blatantly overpowered like pre-nerf sharpie, let them.

Why need Commando, when Supporter can clear all small zeds with piercing shotgun.

You obviously don't play those perks very often. The commando is about covering a wider area and killing trash zeds, such as the fields in farm, the halls in foundry, the streets of london, and the yard in fron of the manor with tons of ammo to spare, whilst the support is terrible at doing this and has to really conserve his ammo and cover doors/chokepoints, i.e spending less shots to kill more zeds at opportune moments, unlike the commando who can do it in many situations. The support welds doors, so following on from that, it's pretty much his job to be able to deal with a door when the **** hits the fan. But the commando, firebug, demo, and zerker perks are quite good at doing that, too. Lets nerf them instead!

It just doesn't seem right. I know there no perfect balance, there always will be flows, but I think it possible to bring game near the point, where classes have to rely on each others if they want to survive on HoE.

The classes rely quite a lot on each other as it is. Berzerker relies on medic for healing, support/sharpie/demo rely on commando to help them avoid using expensive ammo inefficiently, everyone relies on firebug to apply DOT to the masses of enemies to make the killing far easier, medic relies on everyone else to stop him from having to deal with zeds himself so he can heal the others, the list goes on.

 

[FSUBoo]

@ 9_6
The Overpower threads will NEVER end. If they nerf support at the next patch, demo will be next at the next next patch.



Back to topic:
Unless you make support have NO DAMAGE bonus with nade, and no TOTAL NADE COUNT BONUS, support still rapes fps. Fps are weak against nades anyways.

So supprot will be the next perk which have "no weakness". Oh, only shotguns alone beat several classes in BOTH trash cleaning and do spike damage to bigs. Just like demo.


Still most of the people dont realise how much damage hunting shotgun can do. So they think aa12 is the way to go when facing bigs. 2 alt-fire stun patty 1st time on 6-man HoE, for your reference.

Have you actually tried the Comm Beta supports? With the nerfs down to 5 nades with no bonus damage, it's almost impossible to solo a FP without being seriously injured. And even if you do get it down, it takes (and this is the order I did it it) one pump shotgun to head, one nade at FPs feet, 1 alt fire from hunting shotty, 2 more nades at FPs feet, 3 pump shots at FP while backing up, and one more alt fire jumping and aiming down. Do you realize the time needed to do that on Testmap even? In game a support is dead before he does that. So the nade nerfs make it damn near impossible to solo a FP. There are a few combos that worked really well, but that took 2 supports knowing EXACTLY what they needed to do, and they couldn't miss a shot or someone got hurt.

 

[9_6]

Come on now be fair. Listen to what he is saying before you start ranting at him.

Excuse me?
I am listening and trying to make sense of what hes saying and vaguely saying "he needs his old role back" is kind of bollocks reasoning and I explained why already.
What I got so far is being called out on what difficulty I supposedly play twice.

Also those 2 things still are minor details to me which is funny because in the first post he talks about overpoweredness as if it's a huge problem.
You know, overpowered compared to all other perks, "no weaknesses" (yeah... that again) etc.

Before you start bashing the idea

Read my last post please...

a lone fighter outshining every other perk.

Wrong thread, zerker thread #42 is the other way.
Oh wait you actually meant the support with that? That's probably hilarious.

 

[Steeps]

#24, I don't feel he's overpowered because a few select people are capable of soloing scrakes and fleshpounds with it. There was a testmap video floating around here where someone soloed the fleshpound with commando and firebug as well, and they clearly aren't overpowered.

Support isn't overpowered in an individual setting, as berserker and medic are both better at soloing than he his. A mob of them are just practically unstoppable. No zeds pose a threat, you can carry two shotguns and a grenade launcher with NO penalty, 11 perked grenades, instant welding, and there is really no skill involved to play it effectively. You don't need to worry about aim, movement, etc. Just stand still (or crouch) and press mouse1 until everything dies. When I'm with a team of supports on HoE 90% of my squad's wipes (assuming we're all half competent players) are from either not making it back from the trader in time or us goofing in the beginning, which leaves us 2 or 3 people down with 300+ zeds to go.

Of course it isn't game breaking and I'll admit support is a fun perk to play (I do play it quite a bit), but seems to be far more effective and less punishing than the rest. Unless you're with a kiting zerker team there is no reason not to choose it at any given time.

 

[FSUBoo]

Steeps I understand what you are saying but so many people say a support is OP because they can solo a FP, and they can in the right settings, but how often do you see a ton of people able to do it every single time? I can do the scrake and FP tricks pretty much with my eyes closed on testmap but that doesnt always mean it will work in game. Take last night for example, we did Hospital on HoE, wave 9 a FP hits and when I go to do one of the combos on it a siren comes behind it, wipes out the nades and I instantly go to 1hp. Also many supports I see go through a ton of ammo and are running out before 75 left and are down to only hunting shotgun. I carry an axe machete or katana when playing support so I can melee small specimens to save ammo.

Also you say they can stand still and just mouse 1 till everything is dead but it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you have to move around and also, timing reloads correctly plays a big part.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Excuse me?
I am listening and trying to make sense of what hes saying and vaguely saying "he needs his old role back" is kind of bollocks reasoning and I explained why already.
What I got so far is being called out on what difficulty I supposedly play twice.

Also those 2 things still are minor details to me which is funny because in the first post he talks about overpoweredness as if it's a huge problem.
You know, overpowered compared to all other perks, "no weaknesses" (yeah... that again) etc.

This is kind of my point. The way you convey your point of view is very harsh and aggressive. Disagree by all means, but don't attack people and rubbish their posts, thats how arguements start, and that is exactly what happened in the Berserker thread.

By all means please do take part in the discussions, you usually raise some good points, but at least try not to rile people up every time you do.

Where you said "Out of everything you could've chosen, the grenades, being able to carry some relatively useless stuff and being able to stun a scrake for half a second is the "problem"?
Seriously?"

This is a very combative post, and is inciting an arguement, which is what the next 5 posts are all about.

All you would have had to have said instead was "I don't agree that the grenades, extra weight slots and Scrake stun are grounds for saying the Support is overpowered. Changing them wouldn't really change anything significant about the perk" and no one would bat an eyelid.



The only reason I'm challenging you on this is right now I can see this thread turning into yet another rage thread for no good reason. It is frustrating because I personally want to see the balance issues of KF 100% resolved, and yet the thread dealing with it gets derailed by a flame war. This thread has been made to establish what other people think about the the support specialist and what if anyhting should be done about him. I personally feel the Support is bordering on overpowered myself, and there are a number of people who share that opinion. I don't however think taking the Scrake stun lock is fair, but I do think taking away his grenades and such could well help evne him out.

If you disagree with that assessment entirely, or feel he should be nerfed another way by all means share it... but don't take a chunk of flesh out of everyone else first.

 

[C_Gibby]

Anyway, out of the whole Support's measure of power, when compared to the other perks, he is very, very powerful just like he always has been, but not quite overpowered. He still has his weaknesses such as his terrible firing speed, the constant need for reloading, the price of his guns, and the price of his grenades and ammo which require a player to be efficient and spend their shots/nades sparingly as to avoid dosh trouble.

Basically, it's down to expense and the need for efficiency as well as not being able to shoot fast enough.

 

[outofrealman]

"Able to solo fp" itself is not the desiding factor of a perk is OP or not. But many people use this as the main argument. Make perk X cant solo fp then he is not OP? WHAT? SERIOUSLY?

I see some of the people here crying support is OP here said support is balanced in the sharpshooter balance threads and beta discussion. And WHAT really changed? Hunting shotgun PRIMARY-FIRE. Oh wait... what does this matter...?

Like I said, one people say perkX is OP, then the perk will suddenly become "no skill at all" and "everyone can play it with eye closed", "a retarded can play it effectively". Then everyone try to act smart and agree.

This kind of thought is really bad for the game. If you change the game for wrong reasons, sooner or later things will go wrong. You nerf something it dont deserve or you make some perk(s) really useless. (Chainsaw? Xbow?)



Yes, without nade bonus, support need A HELL LOT more effort to solo fp. But that's not really the point anyway... In the current version, I will only use 1 nade per fp. Because after 2 hunting shotgun alt-fire, the fp is down to ~1/3 health anyway, add in the nade (and most people will throw in one or two from their own), anyone who dont want to die will shoot it, and he WILL die. Then I can focus to the upcoming trash, the point isn't try to solo the pound or not. So without nade bonus, may be one more nade from teamate is also needed. And fp waves usually have demo anyway... M32 spam + alt-fire kill them 99% of the time.

And what is fixed?
-Support is really hard to solo fp.
LOL? Even I cant do it, I rather focus more on trash, I do enough damage then step aside. Most of the team wipes is because a SINGLE scrake or fp draw ALL the firepower from the team, then everything is getting too close, demo cant do a damn thing, and sirens start to scream, ss/commando cant aim... etc.

So what is NOT fixed?
-Support out shines commando, firebug in trash, and out shines demos for scrakes, sharpshooter for fps.
And NOBODY think this is a problem? Really? Oh wait... after the nade nerf the damage will nerf too. Judging from the "balancing history". And I believe it will be nerfed BADLY. That's why I always say you should not change the game for wrong reasons. Nade is only making it 10 times easiier for support to solo fp. ONLY. When used on other zeds, they dodge the nade and you cant even kill a clot with the bonus.

 

[FSUBoo]

Outofrealman I do understand your point and I agree with you for the most part. If the support gets nerfer it will probably be to the point where support isn't a fun class to play anymore. I don't mind the nade nerds just don't take some of his other stuff. Even as is if left to solo most supports will falter and wipe. The ammo isn't great enough to solo 100+ by itself. Support is by far my favorite perk, and if it gets nerfed KF won't be as fun for me, and I am guessing that tons of other players will feel the same. Supports don't always get front lines duty. If we are camping a spot where a door needs to be kept welded it's always the supports job to do it. I don't mind doing that because I've seen tons of players who can't hold a weld for a damn. They just hold down mouse 1 and they get in trouble because that will only work for so long before trouble hits.

 

[outofrealman]

Outofrealman I do understand your point and I agree with you for the most part. If the support gets nerfer it will probably be to the point where support isn't a fun class to play anymore. I don't mind the nade nerds just don't take some of his other stuff. Even as is if left to solo most supports will falter and wipe. The ammo isn't great enough to solo 100+ by itself. Support is by far my favorite perk, and if it gets nerfed KF won't be as fun for me, and I am guessing that tons of other players will feel the same. Supports don't always get front lines duty. If we are camping a spot where a door needs to be kept welded it's always the supports job to do it. I don't mind doing that because I've seen tons of players who can't hold a weld for a damn. They just hold down mouse 1 and they get in trouble because that will only work for so long before trouble hits.

Umm..... with some spam, killing 200 zed isn't that hard.

YouTube - ‪KillingFloor Killing 200 zeds in 3 minutes [Hell on Earth Biohazard]‬‏

Really... support should not have ammo problem... unless your team really leave EVERYTHING to you.

 

[FSUBoo]

Umm..... with some spam, killing 200 zed isn't that hard.

YouTube - ‪KillingFloor Killing 200 zeds in 3 minutes [Hell on Earth Biohazard]‬‏

Really... support should not have ammo problem... unless your team really leave EVERYTHING to you.

2 things that really need to be taken into consideration for the video you just posted.

#1) You're camping a spot that if you weld a door pretty much everything comes from the front. Weld the 2 sets of door on the right and EVERYTHING funnels to you from straight ahead.

#2) Look at the wave number that you're on. It's wave 3. Worst things there are Husks and Sirens, which an alt fire hunting shotgun or a few pump shotgun shots takes down. By soloing I'm referring to waves 7 - 10.

 

[starxpilot]

Um...

I don't see anything wrong with the support perk. All this talk makes me want to have an aneurysm. Of course there's going to be 'mis-sights' in gaming production, IT HAPPENS, and what do you do? You make a simple post in the suggestion forum and DEAL WITH IT.

Have any of you prats missed the entire point of the game? "Casual Gaming". If you're looking for a ZOMG EPIC FPS game, I think you missed the Call of Duty Modern Warfare button.

The reason you guys are seeing it be 'Overpowered' in the first place is probably because of the maps you are playing on. Try a Level 6 Support Specialist on "ThePit" on Hell on Earth Difficulty, I dare you. You won't last 10 minutes in there.

So many factors go into the game that it makes arguments like I just skimmed through pointless and a waste of time, if you got something smart to suggest, maybe on the Suggestion forum? (Instead of flaming each other like gormless tossers...)

One other hting I'd like to point out is that you should have made a poll where people could have debated of whether or not support is really overpowered, if you turn your attention to the Zerker thread, you'd see that the majority of the community finds it 'Alright' the way it is, second most being its a 'Tad' overpowered.

I think the system is great, while not 'perfect', too many of you 'Pro Gamers' have your expectations too damn high.

While this video isn't support, it should give you an idea how the game-play goes when leveling up (I'm gonna have to buy a second copy of KF...didn't really want to level up xD)

 

[SMIFF]

@starxpilot "Casual gaming" doesn't apply to HoE difficulty, it was created to please the "Hardcore" KF player, the kind of players that want a challenge.

Supports being able to annihilate everything a little too easily is hardly "Hardcore".

Bringing up "ThePit" (a map I'm not familiar with, but sounds like from your post it's incredibly hard/impossible to beat like KF-Die and KF-Survival) really doesn't help your argument at all.

Don't really know why you posted that video of you using a level 5 Commando on what's clearly Normal difficulty, explain?

 

[sverek]

I am not against tricks, like being able to take down scrake. But if support can do all this tricks, why other classes can't?

like....

I would love if crossbow could stun scrake on 1st hit (non-sharpshooter / like axe). That for example could give great combination for Commando to go Crossbow + SCAR. So he is capable of stunning scrake on rage and finishing him of with SCAR.
With that Commando will probably be able to handle scrake.

Those are tricks I am talking about, not only supporter being op. If most classes could share some nice combination, where they have to suffer fire power, but get some combination of attacks that will take down big zed, that would really awesome, imo.

 

[ChairmanMurder[Forge]]

If I were to pick one change to make the Support Specialist less powerful (I don't consider him "overpowered", just damned powerful), it would be removing his grenade damage bonus (while keeping his grenade capacity).

From what I've seen of people who are using the KF Comm-Beta, that makes it a lot harder for a Support to consistently play Bowling for Fleshpounds. Other than the grenade damage nerf, and possibly the speed nerf, I can't think of anything else to weaken the Support that wouldn't totally gank him into weaksauce realm.

 

[Steeps]

#27 I was exaggerating with the crouch in a corner and hold mouse1, but the support specialist does have a lot of strength for the very little effort you have to put in. Putting the fleshpound and scrake soloing aside I’d still say he’s the strongest perk in the game by a good margin. Backing off when low on health and not reloading at bad opportunities (I partially disagree with the long reload time since taking the pump shotgun can solve this problem) is not much of a downside for the amount of firepower you get. Compared to the other perks I’d say support specialist and firebug require the least amount of skill.

And I’m not trying to give the impression that the support specialist is game-breaking and absolutely NEEDS a nerf. IMO he is clearly the strongest group perk, while berserker is clearly the strongest solo perk. If he never gets nerfed I’d be perfectly happy. I’m just saying if future changes are going to be made, he would be the first class I would adjust. Second I’d give the firebug a buff to make his role for prominent. Finally, I’d change the game mechanics slightly so the berserker can’t abuse them as easily (and possibly a small nerf for him as well, but that was discussed to death already).

#37 I don't want to make him weak, either. I'm fine with him being the heavy hitter and most powerful of the bunch. I mean that title has to go to someone, and if it doesn't go to support then there will be another most powerful perk in need of a nerf. That's why I suggested the speed reduction a million times. He will still be the powerhouse that he is (and should be), but people will think twice before deciding to be the third or fourth support specialist on the team.

With a speed nerf the support specialist will be the strongest, but not always the best and wisest choice anymore.

 

[starxpilot]

@starxpilot "Casual gaming" doesn't apply to HoE difficulty, it was created to please the "Hardcore" KF player, the kind of players that want a challenge.

Supports being able to annihilate everything a little too easily is hardly "Hardcore".

Bringing up "ThePit" (a map I'm not familiar with, but sounds like from your post it's incredibly hard/impossible to beat like KF-Die and KF-Survival) really doesn't help your argument at all.

Don't really know why you posted that video of you using a level 5 Commando on what's clearly Normal difficulty, explain?

If they want to really get their share of the 'profits' in Hardcore, then maybe they should play a more 'Classic' mode? You know, take out them weapons we didn't use to have...using only certain ones. Can't remember the list because I never saw much of the old KF. That should please them, and then some. (Over making a change that affects all Difficulty and gameplay)

If that were true that they can annihilate 'everything' that's a little farfetched. Only way that could happen is with a team of Supports. It also hurts it when you think about the average player not being able to use things wisely, (I.E., using the Auto mode and spamming all your nades on two FPs, early-mid wave)

It does actually, because the majority of the maps seen that say this is 'OPed' are maps that you can sit and camp someplace where nothing can get to you, what's the point of that if not going to get some well placed hurt? Takes the challenge out of it completely, a map has to be challenging as like Survival, give or take a little, in order to 'Balance out' things.

Yeah, that's Normal, and leveld up to 6. Its an example of a 'Regular' gamer, there's nothing Hardcore about that. That's the kind of player that's uncommon but damn well close to being as common than 'Pro' or 'Hardcore' players.

If a certain group of individuals wish to be pleased, then make a mut or something that can be 'Added on', instead of changing the entire damn game. (There's a Melee or something in the defaults that's for 'all ye hard nuns', that's what I'm talking about.)

Although, I wouldn't mind seeing the Support be nerfed a little. But only a Little, as all no doubt are aware of the 'Sharpshooter' nerfing that..what was that slogan? Something about Sharps 'were once good'.

@Sevrek Xbow was nerfed a while back, I think you could do that before...not so much anymore, things get nerfed and throw the balance off, one way or the other, hard as heck to get it 'Balanced out'

Or damn well close to anyways.

 

[FSUBoo]

I am not against tricks, like being able to take down scrake. But if support can do all this tricks, why other classes can't?

like....

I would love if crossbow could stun scrake on 1st hit (non-sharpshooter / like axe).

As far as I know, the axe thing works on ANY perk. Not just support, support is just one that can take advantage of it.