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Ramble on tanks, armor and other stuff...

Unless I am wrong, and I am never wrong, ROOST models the F1 grenade fragments (not technically "shrapnel"). This explains the occasional grenade distance kills. The closer you are, the higher the chance you'll be hit by a fragment, the further, the lower the chances, but it can still happen.

I'm not so sure. It seems like in ROOST you're either dead, or superficially hit by the concusion. I've never been wounded in, say, the leg by a stray piece. They behave like run-of-the-mill splash damage weapons just like Unreal Tournament.
 
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TBH, I'd rather believe German sources when they say ~400BHN since they tested LOTS and LOTS of T-34 and also actually used them themselves. ;)

Of course, there's always going to be the odd one, especially with a tank so mass produced under such varying conditions as the T-34, but if nearly all sources agree that the T-34's glacis was in the range of approx. 400BHN after testing dozens of different tanks and one single test the British did on one single tank indicates otherwise I wouldn't even consider the test enough to actually have any real impact on the numbers.

Btw, I also doubt Bovington's figures, as they'd go against most combat reports and tests conducted by other nations (for instance the US army penetration values for the L/43 and L/48). Also, does it indicate what the angle was? Could be at some odd angle.
 
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TBH, I'd rather believe German sources when they say ~400BHN since they tested LOTS and LOTS of T-34 and also actually used them themselves. ;)

Of course, there's always going to be the odd one, especially with a tank so mass produced under such varying conditions as the T-34, but if nearly all sources agree that the T-34's glacis was in the range of approx. 400BHN after testing dozens of different tanks and one single test the British did on one single tank indicates otherwise I wouldn't even consider the test enough to actually have any real impact on the numbers.

Btw, I also doubt Bovington's figures, as they'd go against most combat reports and tests conducted by other nations (for instance the US army penetration values for the L/43 and L/48). Also, does it indicate what the angle was? Could be at some odd angle.

I don't take those Bovington tests on the penetration capability too seriously - as I said, something wierd about them. On the plate hardness - I don't think I have ever seen any German data on the T-34 armor, strangely. If you have some, I'd be interested to see it.

But what IS clear is that Russian armor hardness was fairly variable - potentially well short of spec. The Russians don't have any convenient test data available - only what the hardness is "supposed" to be.

Also, as has been said many times - I only use anecdotal evidence as a cross-check. The panzerwaffe seem to have been fairly confident of defeating T-34s at long range, so we have to look at that once we have the model working and see if there is a fault in the basic assumptions - which is always possible! As I said above - quite possible the model ain't perfect yet. If the only remaining problem is about the data, then I won't be too unhappy - that is easy to correct :)

@Hans: nice picture! One straight through the mantlet, another straight through the nose.
 
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I'm really hoping for realistic tank combat won't be sacrificed to balance.
I mean, I don't want both tanks to have tough to break hull front, easily penetrable turret etc. if it's againt sources of course. From what I see everything is going in the right direction anyways, which will make me a happy tanker.

There's 100 reasons why 1 tank is better than the other in certain departments and it should be left that way in my opinion, with no additional "tweaks" to make them more "equal". Since there's only 1 "tank only" map, this shouldn't be an issue anyways, because this one map can be designed well enough to make the chances of both teams not that different.
 
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Sorry Lemon, I didn't read Your posts correctly. Went back and had another read and agree on a lot of what You have posted.
To be honest, I'm really looking forward to the Tank aspects of HOS, I could never really get into the Tank Combat in ROOST, so I'm eager to see what the new engine can do.
Also the amount of work going into these Tanks is mind boggling and very impressive...even to the point I'd say TWI could put out it's own Dedicated Tank Sim:IS2:


Also agreed...great Photograph Hans:)
 
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Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-B22359_Russlab.jpg

There's another (or two?) hits just below the turret ring.

Also, is it just me or is the ball-mount of the hull mg looking pretty badly damaged?


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@Wilsonam, I'll try to dig out those reports, never saving anything like this always bites me later. :(

All I can say is that the US army specified the hardness at ~430 BHN using a combination of the one T-34 they recieved in 1942 by the Soviets for testing and others they later got out of the ruins in Berlin.

The Germans generally specified the hardness at ~420 BHN during tests in 1941 and 1942, stating that the high hardness armour resulted in a roughly 15% increase in protection against their 3.7cm and 5cm guns.

The Brits AFAIK set the hardness at roughly 360 BHN if I'm correct.

On a side-note, What will be the maximum depression for the T-34's main gun?
 
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Discussed here: [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=36644[/URL]

I've been wounded by grenades (I think). Maybe a TWI person could clarify the point in ROOST.

Again yesterday, Artillery hit 60 meters away, I got killed while a friend running 10 meters past them survived... lucky bastard:p
Same thing happens with grenades. I think they can wound but I can't remember getting hit int he leg or get 'weapon shot out of hand' by a grenade.
 
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@Wilsonam, I'll try to dig out those reports, never saving anything like this always bites me later. :(

All I can say is that the US army specified the hardness at ~430 BHN using a combination of the one T-34 they recieved in 1942 by the Soviets for testing and others they later got out of the ruins in Berlin.

The Germans generally specified the hardness at ~420 BHN during tests in 1941 and 1942, stating that the high hardness armour resulted in a roughly 15% increase in protection against their 3.7cm and 5cm guns.

The Brits AFAIK set the hardness at roughly 360 BHN if I'm correct.

On a side-note, What will be the maximum depression for the T-34's main gun?
And the trouble with KEEPING copies of all that stuff is then trying to find the one piece of data you know you saw last year... drives me nuts.

T-34's 76.2mm elevation/depression range - -3 through +30. Pz IV does -8 through +20. T-34 turret traverse rate 24 deg/s max (15 seconds full 360), Pz IV rated at 14 deg/s (25 second full 360).

The British report has a wide variety of hardness numbers, as they tested a whole bunch of plates - ranges from 350 to 410. The Russian spec for the armor was supposed to deliver 450 BHN for plate up to 60mm, 340 up to 80mm and 300 above that. But I get the impression their quality control was tossed aside in the "5-year plans" in order to meet quotas. Now, if we apply that same variation to their gun rounds, we'll have to allow for the rounds to be anything up to 25% below spec - which is significant. Must play with the numbers more :)

And I'll try and remember to throw out some thoughts on small arms in the next post...
 
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The British report has a wide variety of hardness numbers, as they tested a whole bunch of plates - ranges from 350 to 410.
Well, going from low spectrum to high spectrum, 350-410 BHN by Brits, 420-430 by Germans, 440 by US army and 450 BHN from Soviets, 420-430 BHN appears to be surprisingly accurate. ;)

Btw, lack of consistency in terms of hardness doesn't say anything about the quality of the plates themselves. So that's another factor that comes into play. Christ, I wish I could find that Kummersdorf report where they tested the T-34 against the KwK 36, KwK 38, KwK 39 and Pak 38 and were extensively researching on the impact the hardness of the plate had on the rounds. I definitely remember it giving hardness numbers of multiple T-34 plates after which the Germans put the average hardness of the T-34's glacis at roughly 420-430 BHN.
 
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Interesting stuff. I gather it would be more realistic to model the variation in armor and even shot quality.

But would this be on par with including gun jams? How would the competitive community, which hate randomness, take this?


Personally, I'm fine either way. Perhaps the quality could even vary depending on the date of the action, assuming it was historically correct.
 
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And cold temperatures would affect the malleability even more. Can we please not go totally nuts and random because certain experts think they know it better yet again?

Please use ONE decent model as the basis for your calculations and do not throw random internet opinions into the mix. Consistency and reproducibility in a game are important, depending on a lottery to win a match is neither motivating nor satisfying.

There are enough modders out there which will "fix" your penetration system anyway.

/rant
 
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And cold temperatures would affect the malleability even more. Can we please not go totally nuts and random because certain experts think they know it better yet again?

Please use ONE decent model as the basis for your calculations and do not throw random internet opinions into the mix. Consistency and reproducibility in a game are important, depending on a lottery to win a match is neither motivating nor satisfying.

There are enough modders out there which will "fix" your penetration system anyway.

/rant
I think discussing things like this is rather important, else you could end up with ping-pong T-34/76's penetrate Tiger 1's at 1000m and PTRD's penetrating over 100mm of RHA. ;)
 
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