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HC FPS gamer here, a few suggestions.

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Hi I Faw Down btw, nice to see more RnL wisdom here :D.

... I mean COD is the biggest FPS game out there. ...
If you mean PC+consoles, then don't mind the rest of this text. I however don't care for the consoles in this discussion as we are talking about the PC market.

Maybe I am wrong but isn't COD:MW2 and COD:BO both played 100% via steam? If so, then the steam statistics should sort of be an indication on which games on steam that are bigger than the other.

If that is so, CS and CSS is bigger than MW2 and BO, no question about it.
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
 
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What makes you think thease "Casual clans" would even care wahoo4?

Ever since CoD3, CoD has been a casual franchise, the games are designed from the ground up to appeal to casual gamers, and that, combined with a marketing machine that has made CoD a household name that everyone knows, means that it is what all their freinds are playing too.

Why should they care about Ro2? Sure there may be some buzz around the game right now, because it's new and something else, but even if the game included an FFA mode for them, what makes you think they would stick with it?

RO is not a casual game at it's heart, it's no CoD:MW, and a token FFA mode woulden't make it a casual game either, and still, all thease casuals will be finding themselves in a situation where all their freinds have the latest CoD, but not all of them will have Ro2, and there's going to be a new CoD released probably within 6 months of Ro2's release anyway, which again, all their freinds will buy.. so why exactly would they "convert"?


The casual market is huge, just look at all the players who play the likes of Halo, CoD and Madden, there's no denying there's a lot of them, and that there is tons of money to be made there, and with that in mind, i can fully understand why you think it would be good for buisness if Ro2 could rope thease players in.

But how is it going to do that? Ro2 is not a casual game, and an FFA mode would not be sufficient to turn it into one, it's just not what this player base is looking for in the first place, and whilst you could dupe them into buying it once, only some of them would play it, and probably only untill the next CoD is released, then they will dump it for that, and they won't be buying Ro3, having learned that it's not what they are looking for.

The only way to really rope thease players in, would be to kill RO, to turn it into a casual game, a bad clone of other popular franchises that they can relate to... only, even that doesen't work, it allways fails, just look at the latest MoH, it tried, and it failed.
And again, the reason is simply that casuals go with the flow, they play the new hot thing that all their freinds are playing, there was no good reason for them to dump CoD in favour of the new MoH, it was basically the same game, only, all their freinds where playing CoD, so that's what they continued to do.

A casual RO would face the exact same problem, it would be dumped by it's origional fanbase, because we don't want a casual shooter, in a vain attempt to attract a new and bigger playerbase.. but why should they care? TWI can't market the game like Activision can, RO is no household name, and again, all their freinds are playing CoD, and will buy the next CoD aswell, so that's where the casuals will be.

(Do note: I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here, i know you respect that RO is it's own game, you have said so several times, i'm just exploring what it'd take to rope in the casual market.. and i don't think the posibillity is even there for that, i think it would fail like MoH if they tried)



Ro2 absolutely can expand it's player base, and i firmly belive that it will, but it's not going to be the casual players that fill the ranks, Ro2 is no casual game, and any attempt to make it one would still not be able to compete with CoD anyway, so this is not where the bulk of new players will come from.

Some of them will come from the CoD community, but it won't be the casuals who is that franchise's target audience, no, it'll be the oldtimers who are growing tired of CoD, the ones who liked 1, UO and 2, but feels the series has gone down hill since then, the players who are angry and feel they have become second fiddle to the casual Console crowd.

Many more are likely to come from the BF community, again because that series has gone more Console, and more casual, and they want something more than that.

It'll also attract players from the ARMA and WWIIOL scene, who will come to it looking for some more instant action (funny that, to thease guys, Ro2 would be the more casual choice, the "jump in for fun" game in their arsenal.. perspective is a funny beast).

It will also attract a lot of the serious compettitive community, because it's skill based, and is one of few games to come out recently that has the propper tools they need to play on the PC, and it may even attract them from very different genres, who are all fleeing the "consoleization" of recent PC offerings.

And lets not forget the mod community, and all the players a mod freindly game can attract in todays market, where allmost nothing comes with a full SDK anymore.


There are a lot of players out there who are looking for something more substantial, something more PC minded, something more hardcore than the Console ports offer, and Ro2 is the game they are looking twords, Ro2 is damn near unique in todays market, just because it's a solid no-nonsense PC shooter, something we haven't seen since.. basically, since the Xbox360 was released (there have been a few PC only shooters, but most of them very buggy and conceptual, like the Stalker series, ARMA series, Metro 2033 and so on).

Thease are the players who are likely to join our ranks as RO fans, not the casuals, hopefully Ro2 will attract some of thouse too, who will play it and discover that this kind of game can also be fun, i hope we will see that, but the game should not go out of it's way to become more casual for them, because that would drive away the game's true fanbase, in favour of one who want's this weeks new flavour, and won't stick around.
 
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Anyone who wants balance can make a mod, it would be quite easy( at least easier than a full mod with models mpas ,etc), you only have to change damages, rpms or whatever you like, but RO must be realistic.

True. Anyone remember that god-awful mutator that used COD weapon sounds instead of RO's stock ones? Everytime I joined a server running it I quit because I couldn't stand the sounds :p
 
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True. Anyone remember that god-awful mutator that used COD weapon sounds instead of RO's stock ones? Everytime I joined a server running it I quit because I couldn't stand the sounds :p

Sadly I do too. And what was really tragic is that somebody obviously thought that they sounded better than the original RO sounds...horror...
 
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I think what Knighted and I both want is a balance. Come on guys, you cannot say that everything is bad about COD. They have created some really good game types, and they set a standard for others. The ability to wager your money/points was genius. I mean COD is the biggest FPS game out there. There are many good things about the game, it's not evolved into anything, but the same old. RO2 will bring better realistic features. You can't do much to re invent FPS games. Saying RO2 will be COD is just not a good argument. If TWI can bring some of those great games to their game it will just cut the throat of COD. Why not, we are talking about game types that have been established in the community. It would be dumb not to do it. You will steal a huge part of the market. Understand the more money TWI makes the more games and new features we will see in the future. My bet is TWI is wagering a huge amount of their success on this game. I'm only talking about adding some game types, making the game a little less slower than RO and have that snappiness you have with COD. I'm a twitch player, and I would hate not to be able to use my skill. I love what TWI has done so far and they have not compromised. I understand and respect you guys for wanting it like RO1. No one likes their favorite game changed. No one likes a new learning curve after spending years perfecting it. Do you want empty servers in two years? Then TWI has to do what they got to do. You can't blame them for it.
Red Orchestra was meant to be slow and strategic, unlike the new COD games in which you can just blindy run around being overpowered and killing everybody while not having a fair game and fight. Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 and Black Ops is completely unbalance. Yeah you can play a game mode in which everybody is strip from their powers, but nobody likes to play that anymore. And if your suggestions was to come out in HoS, yeah it'll get more sales but then the game itself wouldn't live up into the original players expectations and the series itself will go down the road like the Call of Duty franchise, and not in a good way, look at Medal of Honor, it tried being like Call of Duty and failed miserably. I understand that you want to bring more players into this game by turning down some major features that made Red Orchestra what it is and it's reputation for, but it's not going to happen, and I know that the majority of us RO players and the forums will agree with me.
 
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guys, I think you can lay off it, the message has been delivered. He said that he is liking ROOST and understands, so I feel that this many massive posts is kind of, how does the expression go, "beat a dead horse"?

Anyways, I can see his desire to incorporate the best of both worlds, but I feel that, in this case, we are making a very good step towards that by making it more available to a larger player base. It retains the "RO feel" while making it something less niche. A perfect balance. However, for those who desire a little bit less intense experience, there will likely be additional game modes or mods to accomodate you; so instead of "dont hope", the thing is to go out and make your dreams possible. It may not be quite right for RO2's main mode, but with our widening community, there is a broadened appetite for numerous gamemodes. But I really like the current main mode of RO2 as is, although I could see your vision of a "gateway drug" mode for adjusting players becoming a reality, especially if you go out there and put together a mod team. Then everyone is happy.:D
 
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Red Orchestra 2 can't be Red Orchestra +

Isn't that what a sequel is supposed to be? The same gameplay and style that everybody knows and loves, but better?

If you want something completely unlike the original, why even bother leaving "Red Orchestra" in the name? Sure we want changes, and there are already plenty, but we don't want to completely dissolve the sequel from the origional. I have the feeling that you don't want to play red orchestra at all, and if that is the case, why even bother with ROHOS?

The Dev's hated all the current fps's out there and said, screw it, lets just make our own game the way we want it. I think that's a lot more productive then sitting in the forums telling people how they are making their game is wrong, and they should do it this way instead. Maybe you should get a team togather and show everyone here how much better your game is. Hell maybe I'll be in your forums a years from know complaining about how your game isn't realistic enough.
 
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Red Orchestra 2 can't be Red Orchestra +
Your right 2 is not +,2 contains more than RO had:
-better core game play(no more feeling like stiffy when moving around-realism)
-interuptable actions YEY! (realistic)
-FPS cover system (realism)
-no more overpowered recoil for LMG's(realism)
-more recoil for the unforgiving MG's(realism)
-amazing tanks interiors(realism)
-3D scope and adjustable scope and iron sight for bolt rifles when shooting on different distances(realism)
-COD community handshaking (TDM,relaxed realism,strating,hopefully they will add killcam and FP spectator cam-its a nice feature)
-support for competitive gamers and clans

So yeah which ever way you look at it RO2 will not goign to be RO+ because it surpasses it,BUT!!! its a cold hard fact that RO2 will be the same as ROOST in one thing=Fast paced historically realistic FPS game(fast paced compared to sim FPS such as ARMA).
 
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Red Orchestra 2 can't be Red Orchestra +

and no one is saying it's going to be RO+. It has been definately changed enough to qualify as a sequel from what I can tell. In any case, let's try and have us all have a nice, calm debate with no provacotive statements or bickering

*Timur initiates puppy eyes*

images
 
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I'm only talking about adding some game types, making the game a little less slower than RO and have that snappiness you have with COD. I'm a twitch player, and I would hate not to be able to use my skill.
srsly..you guys really should start to play RO:OST NOW..because..i dont know man your assumption is totaly wrong that "slower" gameplay equals "i cant use my skill" whatever your skill might be. It seems you guys dont understand the core fundamentals of what makes RO:OST such a great game.

It only feels slow at start becasue you dont know how to handle certain situations and get shot from god knows where. More experienced players play pretty fast at times but know when to slow down.
 
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Your right 2 is not +,2 contains more than RO had:
-better core game play(no more feeling like stiffy when moving around-realism)
-interuptable actions YEY! (realistic)
-FPS cover system (realism)
-no more overpowered recoil for LMG's(realism)
-more recoil for the unforgiving MG's(realism)
-amazing tanks interiors(realism)
-3D scope and adjustable scope and iron sight for bolt rifles when shooting on different distances(realism)
-COD community handshaking (TDM,relaxed realism,strating,hopefully they will add killcam and FP spectator cam-its a nice feature)
-support for competitive gamers and clans

So yeah which ever way you look at it RO2 will not goign to be RO+ because it surpasses it,BUT!!! its a cold hard fact that RO2 will be the same as ROOST in one thing=Fast paced historically realistic FPS game(fast paced compared to sim FPS such as ARMA).


I agree with everything, but killcam? Seriously, thats another element which might ruin the RO gameplay. If you get shot you are dead, its your fault and you shouldn't be awarded with video of your nemesis. In RO its very important to find good spots and defensive positions for snipers or MG players. How that would work if MG or sniper gets exposed every time after he kills somebody?

Killcam might work in CoD where each player can be sniper or MG gunner but not in RO where are class limitations.

+1 to that what BlackLabel says. You guys should get RO:O and check how good gameplay works there.
 
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I agree with everything, but killcam? Seriously, thats another element which might ruin the RO gameplay. If you get shot you are dead, its your fault and you shouldn't be awarded with video of your nemesis. In RO its very important to find good spots and defensive positions for snipers or MG players. How that would work if MG or sniper gets exposed every time after he kills somebody?

Killcam might work in CoD where each player can be sniper or MG gunner but not in RO where are class limitations.

+1 to that what BlackLabel says. You guys should get RO:O and check how good gameplay works there.

Pretty sure the killcam would not happen, given the work they've done to notifications - the delayed death messages etc
 
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Guys, lol, I'm happy with what I see in RO2. I guess what some of us want are the best of both worlds in one game. Never happen I understand, but one can hope. :D I really do have faith in TWI and they will deliver a great balance of both worlds in their way.

You know the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none"?
In my humble opinion, RO and CoD are two completely different beasts. Settling yourself somewhere in the middle ground will end up pleasing neither side. It'll have some of this and some of that, but not enough of either of them to please each side.
Both sides will retreat to their respective genres, and that will cause the death of RO2 far earlier than you suggest if it doesnt include feature x and y from popular titles.

When i look at the gaming market, there are the big mainstream sellers which everybody and their granny has heard about. CoD being one of them.
They are popular, but not necessiraly representative of what 'gamers' want.
Sure, everybody can play a game, but that doesnt necesarily make them a gamer (in my opinion, they play for fun, a quick fix and then move on, while not really caring about gaming or games in general).
What i see happening is a lot of gamers taking refuge in smaller indie games, the games trying new stuff, offering interesting ways to progress the genre. RO2 is among them, though it is of a quality and 'bigness' that far outstrips many, if not all of the other indie games and because of this can actually compete with the big mainstream titles.
And these indie titles can gain a lot of big success. Few titles: Minecraft, Amnesia the dark descent, and ofcourse Red Orchestra etc. etc.
They didnt get big because they followed the mainstream, but rather because they strayed away from it and tried to be their own game.
That gathers respect from gamers, the people that stick and care about the game, and in my opinion those are the people you want, because they will come back and buy more of your next games.

Anyways, i'm not saying this to assault your opinion as you are entitled to it, this is just my humble opinion.
RO got attention because of the realism and all the other things that make RO what it is today, not despite it, and it would be idiocy to change that because it stands out now, but would fall in and get obscured by the myriad of other titles all doing the exact same thing.

That said, in TWI I trust. :IS2:
 
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Yes we are kind of beating a dead horse here, I'll beat my drum some more, lol, but why will they care? RO2 has many new features no other FPS game has, and it's game changing. Not because it's going to be harder, but because TWI put the hard work into features that make it fun. Oh yes, many love the WW era. Yes they are interested, and having one introduction type game like FFA, with open weapons, will not change RO2 for the worse. Understand, most of the PC community older and more mature. I'm 36, and change don't come easy. IF they take the time to learn a new game, how it feels, learn each weapon, you can bet they will stick with it for many years, even if the new COD comes out. Many I know never bought MW2 or BOs. It's a matter of introducing them to a very easy game like FFA, learning it and they will be loyal to it for years much like many here are to RO1. That's why I said it's so important for TWI to pursue people at the grassroots rather than wait for people to hear about the game.

From a marketing stand point, it would be unwise to neglect it. Well, some would say go play COD, well I tell you, you don't understand the gaming community as a whole. :( Team based takes more concentration, it's not relaxing, not for learning the game. So why frustrate people on both ends? Some will say, well there is the single player mode. Ok, how many here like to play bots? Good or not? I'm not talking about noobs either, I'm talking about good COD players that just need to transition, while still being able to play people. Those players will get into team based games after they get the feel for it.

I recently bought three games this month, Left for Dead 2, Mafia II, and RO1. LOL I'm bored, but I can't stand playing the AI anything. My fault, I should have known better. lol Nope no matter how frustrating RO1 is it's still better than playing the AI. I just don't think I'm the norm though. People hate changing and learning something new. Make it easy for that transition. I understand there will be TDM, but I say your still leaving out a segment of people that don't like team play. And that all I got to say about that. lol

What percentage of gamers do you think are ADD, or are introverts? lol How may do you think have played team sports or single oriented sports? How many gamers do you think like to communicate on a mic when they play? I wonder how many gamers are considered followers or leaders? I wonder how many gamers like to play a high level competition gaming? How many games on the market are team orientated? Humm..would be interesting to see those numbers? lol

What makes you think thease "Casual clans" would even care wahoo4?

Ever since CoD3, CoD has been a casual franchise, the games are designed from the ground up to appeal to casual gamers, and that, combined with a marketing machine that has made CoD a household name that everyone knows, means that it is what all their freinds are playing too.

Why should they care about Ro2? Sure there may be some buzz around the game right now, because it's new and something else, but even if the game included an FFA mode for them, what makes you think they would stick with it?

RO is not a casual game at it's heart, it's no CoD:MW, and a token FFA mode woulden't make it a casual game either, and still, all thease casuals will be finding themselves in a situation where all their freinds have the latest CoD, but not all of them will have Ro2, and there's going to be a new CoD released probably within 6 months of Ro2's release anyway, which again, all their freinds will buy.. so why exactly would they "convert"?


The casual market is huge, just look at all the players who play the likes of Halo, CoD and Madden, there's no denying there's a lot of them, and that there is tons of money to be made there, and with that in mind, i can fully understand why you think it would be good for buisness if Ro2 could rope thease players in.

But how is it going to do that? Ro2 is not a casual game, and an FFA mode would not be sufficient to turn it into one, it's just not what this player base is looking for in the first place, and whilst you could dupe them into buying it once, only some of them would play it, and probably only untill the next CoD is released, then they will dump it for that, and they won't be buying Ro3, having learned that it's not what they are looking for.

The only way to really rope thease players in, would be to kill RO, to turn it into a casual game, a bad clone of other popular franchises that they can relate to... only, even that doesen't work, it allways fails, just look at the latest MoH, it tried, and it failed.
And again, the reason is simply that casuals go with the flow, they play the new hot thing that all their freinds are playing, there was no good reason for them to dump CoD in favour of the new MoH, it was basically the same game, only, all their freinds where playing CoD, so that's what they continued to do.

A casual RO would face the exact same problem, it would be dumped by it's origional fanbase, because we don't want a casual shooter, in a vain attempt to attract a new and bigger playerbase.. but why should they care? TWI can't market the game like Activision can, RO is no household name, and again, all their freinds are playing CoD, and will buy the next CoD aswell, so that's where the casuals will be.

(Do note: I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here, i know you respect that RO is it's own game, you have said so several times, i'm just exploring what it'd take to rope in the casual market.. and i don't think the posibillity is even there for that, i think it would fail like MoH if they tried)



Ro2 absolutely can expand it's player base, and i firmly belive that it will, but it's not going to be the casual players that fill the ranks, Ro2 is no casual game, and any attempt to make it one would still not be able to compete with CoD anyway, so this is not where the bulk of new players will come from.

Some of them will come from the CoD community, but it won't be the casuals who is that franchise's target audience, no, it'll be the oldtimers who are growing tired of CoD, the ones who liked 1, UO and 2, but feels the series has gone down hill since then, the players who are angry and feel they have become second fiddle to the casual Console crowd.

Many more are likely to come from the BF community, again because that series has gone more Console, and more casual, and they want something more than that.

It'll also attract players from the ARMA and WWIIOL scene, who will come to it looking for some more instant action (funny that, to thease guys, Ro2 would be the more casual choice, the "jump in for fun" game in their arsenal.. perspective is a funny beast).

It will also attract a lot of the serious compettitive community, because it's skill based, and is one of few games to come out recently that has the propper tools they need to play on the PC, and it may even attract them from very different genres, who are all fleeing the "consoleization" of recent PC offerings.

And lets not forget the mod community, and all the players a mod freindly game can attract in todays market, where allmost nothing comes with a full SDK anymore.


There are a lot of players out there who are looking for something more substantial, something more PC minded, something more hardcore than the Console ports offer, and Ro2 is the game they are looking twords, Ro2 is damn near unique in todays market, just because it's a solid no-nonsense PC shooter, something we haven't seen since.. basically, since the Xbox360 was released (there have been a few PC only shooters, but most of them very buggy and conceptual, like the Stalker series, ARMA series, Metro 2033 and so on).

Thease are the players who are likely to join our ranks as RO fans, not the casuals, hopefully Ro2 will attract some of thouse too, who will play it and discover that this kind of game can also be fun, i hope we will see that, but the game should not go out of it's way to become more casual for them, because that would drive away the game's true fanbase, in favour of one who want's this weeks new flavour, and won't stick around.
 
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Sic, you make some good points. A lot of it is not an issue for me anymore. I'm really thinking of the many people I know in "Casual Clans" I'm talking about two established game types like TDM (which they have now) FFA, with open weapons classes. A few easy game type that allow people to grasp a new feeling of the game.

I somewhat agree with your "Jack of all trades" comment. It's going to be difficult, and people will have to choose to be good at one or the other. Going back and forth between all the FPS games I play really screws me up. I get ok at all of them, and lose that edge when I stop playing one exclusively. With all the CODs it's easier to adapt between them, but I'm sure RO2 will be different in the feel. It's very difficult to remove yourself from a game you have been playing for 10 years. Your good at it and don't want to give up that status. lol Same goes for both sides.

That brings me to my point, people say they have COD for that and RO2 for this, but I say add one single player minded game. My bet is people will choose RO2 exclusively when they get to play something of what they know, along with a taste of the new features and later new games types. I have a feeling RO2's movement will feel close enough to COD then it's a matter getting used to the weapons play.

You know the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none"?
In my humble opinion, RO and CoD are two completely different beasts. Settling yourself somewhere in the middle ground will end up pleasing neither side. It'll have some of this and some of that, but not enough of either of them to please each side.
Both sides will retreat to their respective genres, and that will cause the death of RO2 far earlier than you suggest if it doesnt include feature x and y from popular titles.

When i look at the gaming market, there are the big mainstream sellers which everybody and their granny has heard about. CoD being one of them.
They are popular, but not necessiraly representative of what 'gamers' want.
Sure, everybody can play a game, but that doesnt necesarily make them a gamer (in my opinion, they play for fun, a quick fix and then move on, while not really caring about gaming or games in general).
What i see happening is a lot of gamers taking refuge in smaller indie games, the games trying new stuff, offering interesting ways to progress the genre. RO2 is among them, though it is of a quality and 'bigness' that far outstrips many, if not all of the other indie games and because of this can actually compete with the big mainstream titles.
And these indie titles can gain a lot of big success. Few titles: Minecraft, Amnesia the dark descent, and ofcourse Red Orchestra etc. etc.
They didnt get big because they followed the mainstream, but rather because they strayed away from it and tried to be their own game.
That gathers respect from gamers, the people that stick and care about the game, and in my opinion those are the people you want, because they will come back and buy more of your next games.

Anyways, i'm not saying this to assault your opinion as you are entitled to it, this is just my humble opinion.
RO got attention because of the realism and all the other things that make RO what it is today, not despite it, and it would be idiocy to change that because it stands out now, but would fall in and get obscured by the myriad of other titles all doing the exact same thing.

That said, in TWI I trust. :IS2:
 
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Pretty sure the killcam would not happen, given the work they've done to notifications - the delayed death messages etc


It's too bad it's not an option, many friend orientated clans enjoy seeing each others "Great shots." It can also reduces some of the whining in game when they don't have a lot of admins to police. Another point is that it's can be a good teaching tool as well.
 
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