Make AKM avaliable only for certain classes (not for the rifleman)

[Perun58]

I accidentally posted this on RO2 forum previously, so here it is:
As far as I can tell, the AKM is hands down most popular of AK rifles in the game. It's no wonder as it is in my opinion by far the best AK variant in the game. In real life I think it's save to say that it was not nearly as common as Type 56. In the game however, it's the other way around and the Type56 is getting outnumbered by the AKM.
My suggestion is to remove the AKM from rifleman (leaving it to other classes that have the AK) and possibly replace it with milled Soviet AK or milled Chinese AK as a lower recoil AK variant (for the price of higher weight).
Also giving the AKM same accuracy as that of Type56 as I can see absolutely no reason for the AKM to be less accurate.

 

[gimpy117]

I'd say sure if the US was only limited to the M14...but the US has the M16 and it's generally excellent so I don't see an issue

 

[Grabbed_by_the_Spetsnaz]

Also giving the AKM same accuracy as that of Type56 as I can see absolutely no reason for the AKM to be less accurate.

The AKM has a muzzlebreak which lowers recoil but also lowers accuracy a bit, the Chinese Type-56 use an older AK design as it's template which didn't have one of those.

 

[Perun58]

I'd say sure if the US was only limited to the M14...but the US has the M16 and it's generally excellent so I don't see an issue

Well the issue is historical. I am not talking about balance here. Besides the AK47 would have similar stats as the AKM (it would be slighly more accurate and heavier) so I don't see any balance issue.

 

[Jeffnasty]

I've helped set up realistic 'real steel' shooting matches where you're only allowed to use Vietnam era equipment, so I've had to do some big amounts of research in the era's gear. In all my years of searching through video footage, photos, and bring back AK's that GI's smuggled home I've found VERY VERY few usages of European-sourced stamped AKM style rifles. I found one photo of a American advisor with the Vietnamese coast guard commandos using a captured Hungarian AMD65 in 1967, I've found a video of RVN Marines using captured Romanian PM63s (with the wooden vertical forward grip) right before the fall of Saigon, and have found one photo of a group of PAVN soldiers, with TWO noticable Romanian stamped PM65 (underfolder without wooden vertical foregrip, just palmswell grips) in the entire group of like 30-something PAVN soldiers with discernible equipment. I have never seen a Soviet AKM in a photo that was pre 1976 in the hands of any force in theater.

The most common rifle, exceedingly, is the milled (which isn't in the game) Chinese Type 56.

I don't think the Soviet AKM should even be in the game, the Type 56 and 56S do plenty of good work to be honest.

 

[AATTV]

Just curious Jeffnasty ,
given your experience with the AK platform etc of that era, do you the feel the nominal accuracy value (4 - 4.5 MOA iirc) assigned it, in game, is properly representative?

.....and further to this, M16-M16a1's by comparison are in game @ 1.5 MOA (or broadly speaking 3x more accurate than the typical AK), do you feel this value is truthful?


I'm not a fanboy of either platform, however I am a big fan of reason & have a fair amount of experience hunting & target shooting with various battlerifles (albeit full power chamberings), and even if the accuracy of the AK in game is not wildly wrong, i find it disingenuous & optimistic to suggest the average example M16a1 is producing 1.5moa groups.

thoughts?

 

[Jeffnasty]

To be honest, it'd depend entirely on the soldier for the respective rifle's accuracy. Even though I scored fairly high in Army marksmanship I'm sure I'd barely do 3.0 MOA with the M16A2, and that's on my best day. I have seen proof online of an Arsenal SLR107 (think of a Bulgarian AK103 copy, 7.62x39 rifle with 16" barrel) shooting just above 2.0 MOA. I have owned a few different Chinese AKs myself and they had, ironically, the nicest triggers and thus were the easiest to shoot.

Lots of our boys in 'Nam were draftees and I doubt they had the best marksmanship. I've done more accurate shooting before at the range with my Norinco 56s1 (stamped Chinese underfolder) then I have with my Colt SP1 (slickside M16A1 in semi auto only) in the same range trip, and I like to shoot as often as possible. I think the accuracy of the M16 should be marginally decreased because of my experience and research.

In light of all my experiences, "knowledge", and to finally get to the point, I think the Chinese AK should sit around 3.0 MOA if not a bit less than that and the M16A1 sit around 2.0 MOA if not more. 4 MOA vs 1.5 MOA is borderline hilarious. Not unfair enough to provide an advantage per se, but still kinda silly.

Edit: Also Colt wasn't making match grade rifles and sending them to Vietnam. I don't think any of them were 1.5 moa rifles at all. Ever.

 

[AATTV]

In light of all my experiences, "knowledge", and to finally get to the point, I think the Chinese AK should sit around 3.0 MOA if not a bit less than that and the M16A1 sit around 2.0 MOA if not more. 4 MOA vs 1.5 MOA is borderline hilarious. Not unfair enough to provide an advantage per se, but still kinda silly.

Edit: Also Colt wasn't making match grade rifles and sending them to Vietnam. I don't think any of them were 1.5 moa rifles at all. Ever.

Exactly, absolutely hit the nail on the head Jeffnasty,

 

[Jagdwyre]

To be honest, it'd depend entirely on the soldier for the respective rifle's accuracy. Even though I scored fairly high in Army marksmanship I'm sure I'd barely do 3.0 MOA with the M16A2, and that's on my best day. I have seen proof online of an Arsenal SLR107 (think of a Bulgarian AK103 copy, 7.62x39 rifle with 16" barrel) shooting just above 2.0 MOA. I have owned a few different Chinese AKs myself and they had, ironically, the nicest triggers and thus were the easiest to shoot.

Lots of our boys in 'Nam were draftees and I doubt they had the best marksmanship. I've done more accurate shooting before at the range with my Norinco 56s1 (stamped Chinese underfolder) then I have with my Colt SP1 (slickside M16A1 in semi auto only) in the same range trip, and I like to shoot as often as possible. I think the accuracy of the M16 should be marginally decreased because of my experience and research.

In light of all my experiences, "knowledge", and to finally get to the point, I think the Chinese AK should sit around 3.0 MOA if not a bit less than that and the M16A1 sit around 2.0 MOA if not more. 4 MOA vs 1.5 MOA is borderline hilarious. Not unfair enough to provide an advantage per se, but still kinda silly.

Edit: Also Colt wasn't making match grade rifles and sending them to Vietnam. I don't think any of them were 1.5 moa rifles at all. Ever.

Yeah, I've seen AK's be accurate as well, including Chinese production ones. And I agree 100% on the 3.0 MOA AK and 2.0 MOA M16, I've suggested similar values multiple times in the past.

Also to your previous post I also completely agree. I have no idea why there is no early milled receiver Type 56 in the game yet we have the AKM which was basically a unicorn weapon in Vietnam. I still don't quite understand why they even felt the need to have 3 different AK variants in the game.

 

[Jeffnasty]

Yeah, I've seen AK's be accurate as well, including Chinese production ones. And I agree 100% on the 3.0 MOA AK and 2.0 MOA M16, I've suggested similar values multiple times in the past.

Also to your previous post I also completely agree. I have no idea why there is no early milled receiver Type 56 in the game yet we have the AKM which was basically a unicorn weapon in Vietnam. I still don't quite understand why they even felt the need to have 3 different AK variants in the game.

Talk about a unicorn, because I still ain't seen a Soviet AKM in war time photos.

I'm down with variety, I can definitely drink the kool aid when it comes to different kalashnikov variants. I just think a milled AK with type 3 receiver, Chinese wood set and a hooded (not open ear'd) front site block would complete the game's weapons for the PAVN.

 

[Jagdwyre]

Talk about a unicorn, because I still ain't seen a Soviet AKM in war time photos.

I'm down with variety, I can definitely drink the kool aid when it comes to different kalashnikov variants. I just think a milled AK with type 3 receiver, Chinese wood set and a hooded (not open ear'd) front site block would complete the game's weapons for the PAVN.

I love AKs and weapon variety as well. I just feel like 3 AK variants is now the excuse to not add weapons like the VZ58 to the game, a weapon I've been asking for since this game was announced.
But yes, I'd also love to see a milled Type 56. I'm personally more of a milled receiver guy in general.