The MAT-49. Model and animation inaccuracies.

[Lemonater47]

The MAT-49 is a very weird gun indeed when it comes to the way it works and the way it was designed. It's a cheap easy to manufacture gun but at the same time has many features you wouldn't expect on a gun that was made to be cost efficient. Post war weapon as it were.


Main issue. The charging handle. It's both a charging handle and a dust cover for the left hand side. It doesn't move when firing. Yes it is an open bolt weapon. But the charging handle and bolt are not attached to each other. So when you fire the weapon it doesn't move. Provided its in the forward position. If its in the rear position it slams forward into the closed position and stays closed. Though you risk wearing it down doing that. But it WON'T spring into the rear position again. It will stay in the forward position. Works just like an M2 browning. Only its open bolt. The Bolt and charging handle ain't attached to each other and the charging handle will not spring back.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...7_10212689564331592_1019869358605050550_n.jpg

This document is part of the French army manual for the MAT-49. This page in particular is about loading and firing the weapon. 2.1.6 says in French.

"Appuyer sur la manette de securite, puis amener le levier d'armement vers l'arrere sans tou-chera la detente

Ramener le levier d'armement completement vers l'avant"

Loosely Translated that is

"Press the safety lever and then move the cocking lever towards the rear until it stops without touching the trigger

Return the cocking lever fully to the front."


This is all after inserting the magazine. But you'll notice. It says "Return the cocking lever fully to the front". It tells the user to move the cocking lever or charging handle to the front. Back into the closed position. 2.1.7 tells us how to fire the weapon. It doesn't say to move the charging handle to the rear position again. Translated its "The weapon being supplied and armed, pressing the security lever, then the trigger". Security Lever being the safety which is located on the pistol grip.


So yes. The Mat-49 Works differently from the standard open bolt convention. Preventing random stuff from getting into the firing chamber was a top concern with the design. Along with being cheap and easy to make. So their Charging handle became independent from the bolt to serve as a dust cover. On the shell ejection port it has a dust cover that is spring loaded to automatically open when the gun is fired. So you can have the firing chamber completely closed off while still having the gun ready to fire. A massive advantage over other open bolt designs at the time.
The separate charging handle was an extra part yes. But it didn't make the gun any more expensive or harder to make. Harder to maintain slightly but it was designed for the French army which despite all the jokes was actually a first class military force.


So yes. Animation wise. The bolt and charging handle need to be made separate. Even if you don't animate the user moving the charging handle into the forward position. When the weapon fires. It get locked into the forward position on the first shot. And will not move at all for the rest of the shots. The bolt will still move of course.

 

[-Moody-]

Since I'm not the biggest weapon-nerd I don't really care about those things in such a detail because I don't notice them.

It's good when they are fixed but won't make a difference for the most people. That's why I would assume that it would be better to focus on other things but that's up to the devs.

But I wanted to say that is a very well done post. Very interesting insight, sources and well written.

 

[Lemonater47]

Well on the RS2 discord a french guy who owns one of these was talking about this. Only his English wasn't so good.

For the mat-49 Theres barely anything on the Internet written about it in English. There's extremely detailed french websites about it though.
Video wise there's pretty much nothing. Looked at English videos and french videos. About 2 videos show it being fired. One of the videos has the camera behind the person firing it the whole time so you can't see the mechanism. The other video (which was in Italian with the description in English) shows the weapon front its front right side. So you can see the right hand side ejection port with its dust cover open. If you look closely enough you will notice you can't see all the way through the gun. So you can assume the user has pushed the charging handle forward like it says to do in the manual.

 

[Jagdwyre]

Well on the RS2 discord a french guy who owns one of these was talking about this. Only his English wasn't so good.

For the mat-49 Theres barely anything on the Internet written about it in English. There's extremely detailed french websites about it though.
Video wise there's pretty much nothing. Looked at English videos and french videos. About 2 videos show it being fired. One of the videos has the camera behind the person firing it the whole time so you can't see the mechanism. The other video (which was in Italian with the description in English) shows the weapon front its front right side. So you can see the right hand side ejection port with its dust cover open. If you look closely enough you will notice you can't see all the way through the gun. So you can assume the user has pushed the charging handle forward like it says to do in the manual.

Someone in France owns a MAT-49? What? I take it he owns some deactivated version, though I don't think that would matter if you just want to understand how it's action works. Still, I'd defer to his knowledge on the gun over my own since I've sure as hell never handled one.

 

[Lemonater47]

Someone in France owns a MAT-49? What? I take it he owns some deactivated version, though I don't think that would matter if you just want to understand how it's action works. Still, I'd defer to his knowledge on the gun over my own since I've sure as hell never handled one.

It's deactivated but yeah the action still works. He can have it all closed off, pull the trigger and the bolt will still go forward. He assembled the whole thing himself.

Plus he has the user manual. That image is a picture he took.

His one is technically a MAC-49. As it isn't made by Tulle which is where the T in MAT comes from. His one is manufactured by Chatellerault. Only difference really is the engraving at the top says Chatellerault instead of Tulle and it has an extra engraving of the company initials in a box on the magazine twisty bit. Whatever it's called. They had foldable magazines for transportation. Worked as a backup saftey too.

 

[Jagdwyre]

It's deactivated but yeah the action still works. He can have it all closed off, pull the trigger and the bolt will still go forward. He assembled the whole thing himself.

Plus he has the user manual. That image is a picture he took.

His one is technically a MAC-49. As it isn't made by Tulle which is where the T in MAT comes from. His one is manufactured by Chatellerault. Only difference really is the engraving at the top says Chatellerault instead of Tulle and it has an extra engraving of the company initials in a box on the magazine twisty bit. Whatever it's called. They had foldable magazines for transportation. Worked as a backup saftey too.

Interesting stuff. Personally I think French weapons in general are a bit underrated, but that may be partly due to not much information about them outside of France(in my own experience at least), save for some of their main service rifles.

Nice to see that there always seems to be at least a couple of people in this community from all over that have first hand information with more "obscure" weapons and making sure they're modeled and animated right.

 

[BD38]

Interesting stuff. Personally I think French weapons in general are a bit underrated, but that may be partly due to not much information about them outside of France(in my own experience at least), save for some of their main service rifles.

Nice to see that there always seems to be at least a couple of people in this community from all over that have first hand information with more "obscure" weapons and making sure they're modeled and animated right.

I think it is really important to get the guns right.
It's like saying "it's OK that the dustcover opens and closes everytime the player shoots his M16" in BC2

Sure, the average player doesn't give a damn (and BC2 isn't supposed to be realistic), but in a game that tries to be realistic, something like that shouldn't happen.
Just like the model confusion of the Greasegun in RS2
(which I already stated in the weapon issue thread a few weeks ago)

 

[exhausted]

it's been kind of hard getting people to care about the guns when all they say is 'nobody cares, it's already done, it's just a game, blah blah blah' while they sit there and want to talk about the different wardrobe options they want the game to have.

I've been with the RO series since 2006, and if this game is released with the guns in the same state as they were in the last beta I won't be playing long. It will be too big a slap in the face to ignore the people who have first hand experience with these guns and provided the information to make corrections.

It needs to be done right, or they could kiss their Vietnam half-measure releasing butts goodbye.

 

[Beskar Mando]

it's been kind of hard getting people to care about the guns when all they say is 'nobody cares, it's already done, it's just a game, blah blah blah' while they sit there and want to talk about the different wardrobe options they want the game to have.

I've been with the RO series since 2006, and if this game is released with the guns in the same state as they were in the last beta I won't be playing long. It will be too big a slap in the face to ignore the people who have first hand experience with these guns and provided the information to make corrections.

It needs to be done right, or they could kiss their Vietnam half-measure releasing butts goodbye.

Then don't play lol, having a hysterical fit over an animation is silly. I really don't care if the MAT-49 is "fixed". And no I don't give a crap about customization.

 

[BD38]

nobody said that these things need to be changed ASAP, because the devs have other problems
but, things like animation errors should be fixed before the game releases

 

[exhausted]

Then don't play lol, having a hysterical fit over an animation is silly. I really don't care if the MAT-49 is "fixed". And no I don't give a crap about customization.

yeah im actually pretty frustrated because every time somebody points out a flaw, we have ppl like you telling them to get bent.

you won't like who's left if all the people in the know go away

 

[Beskar Mando]

yeah im actually pretty frustrated because every time somebody points out a flaw, we have ppl like you telling them to get bent.

you won't like who's left if all the people in the know go away

If it's a flaw that I see personally as valid, I'll support the change. But not many people will notice a change such as this or even care for that matter. But if it's something as small and minor as an aesthetic inaccuracy such as this I don't care, just don't try blowing it up into something it's not.

Which is a very small amount of people, we both know this. This forum hardly represents a majority of players in the game. Don't exaggerate it. It's nit-picking. I'm not telling you to f*** off, I never said that anywhere. All I've been saying is it's really petty with the threatening to not play the game because a few guns are slightly inaccurate. Think about that for a minute. You're saying you won't be playing long because some guns are slightly off. Not because of some game breaking bug or issue, but because a weapon is slightly off.That sounds rather petty. That's all I'm saying. I'm not telling you to get bent or to f*** off, instead, you're basically saying that to the developers, because a gun isn't 100.000% accurate. I'd be complaining if the M16 was shooting lasers or rockets, I'm fairly sure anyone would if this was the case. I'm not complaining or running around in circles in a hysterical fit because a gun's charging handle isn't moving when the gun fires.

 

[exhausted]

I'm telling you to get bent or to f*** off

This is what I've been saying. Every time somebody points out a flaw, this basically follows. It really puts people who know the guns, have handled the guns and appreciated historical accuracy in a tough spot. We are a resource and you're telling us to f*** off. Why should we fall in line behind that? We just want things fixed and to function correctly.

 

[Beskar Mando]

This is what I've been saying. Every time somebody points out a flaw, this basically follows. It really puts people who know the guns, have handled the guns and appreciated historical accuracy in a tough spot. We are a resource and you're telling us to f*** off. Why should we fall in line behind that? We just want things fixed and to function correctly.

Good job, deliberately editing that quote. You didn't even read my post did you?
Oh wait, that was a typo. My mistake, apologies on that. I'll edit the post above. But seriously man, did you really have to zero in on that, a typo? If you read the whole sentence, it makes no sense.

 

[Beskar Mando]

I'm all for fixing things, non-aesthetic non-nitpicking things. Things like this sort of grind my gears, it's like of all the things you could have complained about it's some tiny aspect of a gun, that won't change the game in the slightest for better or for worse. I guess it's a pet peeve or something for me, but my point is I'm not going to to go "ape****" on you because you're pointing out a flaw. I'm going to "ape****" if it's something as in insignificant as this, which will only be noticed by a minority of a minority of a minority of a minority of players. Which is then overdramatized as the end of the world by that minority of a minority of a minority of a minority of players. We're entitled to our own opinions. Your opinion might be with making sure the game's guns are 100% historically accurate to the tiniest of detail, my opinion isn't. This is what forums are for, to argue for or against an idea or opinion.

 

[exhausted]

Good job, deliberately editing that quote. You didn't even read my post did you?
Oh wait, that was a typo. My mistake, apologies on that. I'll edit the post above. But seriously man, did you really have to zero in on that, a typo? If you read the whole sentence, it makes no sense.

Yep, I'm glad you figured out what you wrote. I'm glad you're still accusing me of editing it, especially when I directly quoted you. Honestly, the whole thing doesn't really make much sense since it's really just you telling me to fall in line when something is obviously wrong and should be fixed.

My fear is that your gung-ho attitude on the state of the game now is that you're willing to overlook glaring errors. Anything that close to the players face, that has been pointed out already, is a glaring error - IT'S RIGHT THERE! If you put as much effort into looking for answers as you do in shutting others up then we would be headed toward something much better. We don't need more people telling us to fall in line -- we need people willing to concede that somethings should be made better.

 

[Perun58]

Wasn't this fixed in recent beta version?

 

[Lemonater47]

Yeah it was.

Beskar is a modder. He can see far far more pressing issues in the game that should take priority over an animation fix for realsim. And yeah they should.

However an animator can't fix many of the bugs that exist in the game. But he can fix animations. You gotta realise that it is a team effort behind the game. People doing all sorts of different things to get it working. So some bugs/issues can be worked in parrelel due to the different skills required.

Plus I knew AMG would did this since they have done so many similar things in the past when it comes to minor artistic innacuracies. M14 reload animation, Double barrel shotgun name, M3A1 grease gun, M16 sights from the wrong period. All fixed when pointed out to them. Now the MAT-49.

AMG does do a lot of research on all this. But when it comes to extremely extremely specific things they may not get it entirely right. Quite often because the information is extremely hard to find. We as the community may have first hand knowledge on a subject. For example the MAT-49. That information came from a guy who owns one and has an original french manual for the gun. I merely posted what he had to say here because his English wasn't so good. So yeah really it's fine to point out certain things to the developers.

 

[BD38]

Plus I knew AMG would did this since they have done so many similar things in the past when it comes to minor artistic innacuracies. M14 reload animation, Double barrel shotgun name, M3A1 grease gun, M16 sights from the wrong period. All fixed when pointed out to them.

The Problem with the Grease Gun isn't an animation error, it's a model one.
The model is clearly a M3 (small ejection port, small ejection port cover, ...), but with M3A1 animations (using your indexfinger to reload).
I don't want to derail another thread, but the guys behind the models & animations, should watch more of Ians (Forgotten Weapons) videos on Youtube:

 

[Lemonater47]

Yes I was told by AMG that they had a new M3A1 planned shortly after wave 6.2.


But it was just a texture change to the existing one…


But yes in the SDK there is actually an M3 with crank handle attached. Fully rigged. But yes the in game one is just that with the handle removed.


I haven't actually seen that particular video and can't see it currently. But I wonder if he mentions a 3rd kind of M3. The field modified M3 that uses a Sten style bolt on the right hand side. In England shortly before the invasion of normandy M3s issued to american units training their often hand their charging handle break off. Some armourers modofied the broken guns with a sten style bolt. They weren't actual sten boots but they look very similar externally. These modifications could also be potentially made in France whole deployed as well you didn't need much of the way in tools to modify it.