• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Squad Clan names, tags and war crimes

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sort by date Sort by votes
[TW]Wilsonam

[TW]Wilsonam

VP, Tripwire Int.
Oct 17, 2005
4,060
2,618
65
Roswell, GA
www.tripwireinteractive.com
#1
While I am not into "censorship" personally, with the growing numbers of members of the forums, I am finding that we are getting growing numbers of complaints/comments about SS units in particular. People need to understand that many find a lot of these things distasteful; elements of them are still illegal in some jurisdictions.

So - I am going to indulge in some clarification and some rule-giving here.

ALL CLANS WISHING TO BE LISTED ON THESE FORUMS WILL COMPLY OR WILL BE REMOVED FROM THESE FORUMS.
  1. There will be a list of unit names banned completely from these forums at all times. The list is currently:
    • SD Einsatzkommando/ Sonderkommando der SS
    • SS-Polizei Battalion 303
    • 13.Waffen-Geb.Div. der SS "Handschar" (kroatische Nr. 1)
    • 21.Waffen-Geb.Div. der SS "Skanderbeg" (albanische Nr. 1)
    • 29.Waffen-Gr.Div. der SS (russische Nr. 1) and all reference to "Kaminski" units
    • 36.Waffen-Gren. Div. der SS and all reference to "Dirlewanger" units
  2. There will also be a list of names of people also banned, starting with the blindingly obvious - so don't use these as Clan names or user ids:
    • Hitler
    • Stalin
    • Beria
    • Himmler
    • Heydrich
    • Kaminski
    • Dirlewanger
    • Eicke
    • Mengele
  3. There are "complex" times, including the fact that some units carry "honorific" names, such as LSS Adolf Hitler. When representing these units and any other "dubious" units (including all SS and NKVD; Partisan and other "volunteer"/"behind-the-lines" units are also included in this list), the management of the clan WILL:
    • Educate all their members publically on the war crimes and atrocities committed by the members of the real life unit, both proven and alleged. Ensure this is carried on your clan website. If you don't know - do the research. You owe it to all those who died, as well as to all those who were honourable enough to refuse to commit war crimes. You also owe it to all those who were purely front line combat soldiers.
    • Disclaim any and all political and ideological allegiances publically on your clan website
    • Ensure that ALL clan members understand these rules and follow them. The Clan management WILL be held accountable for the behaviour of any and all clan members on these forums and elsewhere. Do not bring your clan or us into disrepute
    • If you find any neo-nazi or neo-Stalinist ranters in your Clans - deal with them; there will be no "holocaust denial" or apologists; neither will there be any denial of the vast Stalinist purges and atrocities.
These are very sensitive topics: I have been asked to ban ALL SS-related clan tags. At this time, I am not prepared to do that - so long as all those clans follow the rules above.

If you are going to represent units from the war that people feel very sensitive about - you will also ensure that you portray a balanced view of those units. This means acknowledging the darker side of those units publically and permanently, in order to assist in continued education.

If you need assistance in the research - contact me.

Edited 29th April 2006, to include Partisan units. The reason for including partisans (and this applies to ALL behind-the-lines/volunteer units) is simply that many view these as being bunches of bandits and terrorists. Some of them WERE no better than terrorists and made a career out of terrifying the local populace. Others were indeed very brave and very heroic. Therefore care and consideration needed, please!
 
#7
These are only SOME of the russians crimes committed.

- the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its secret Protocol for the partition of Poland
- the invasion and occupation in September 1939 of Eastern Poland, an area containing eight out of sixteen Poland's prewar provinces and representing 52 percent of Polish soil with over 13 million people
- the consequent breaking of two bilateral treaties with Poland, namely - the 1921 Treaty of Riga and the 1932 Polish-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, renewed in 1934 for an additional ten years; moreover, as a member (since 1934) of the League of Nations, the Soviet Union violated at least three multilateral pacts as well
- the gratuitous handing over of Wilno and the Wilno region to Lithuania in exchange for allowing the Soviets to have military bases in that country
- the rigged plebiscites on the basis of which the occupied Polish territories were incorporated into the Belorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR
- the wholesale looting of Polish raw materials, agricultural produce and both movable and immovable goods to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union
- the wrecking of the Polish economy and the banking system
- the subversion of the Polish educational system, the arts, and the free press
- the trampling underfoot of human rights, including the freedoms of free speech, assembly and worship
- the confiscation of all Polish private and state landed property
- exorbitant taxation without representation
- the four massive and other, less-known smaller deportations of entire Polish families to the Gulag
- the massive arrests of so-called counterrevolutionaries and anti-Soviet elements
- the internment of Polish POWs in forced-labour camps in occupied Eastern Poland and the USSR
- the 1940 cold-blooded execution and burial in mass graves in Katyn, Mednoye and Kharkov of 21 857 Polish prisoners (this exact number of those murdered comes from a 1959 KGB memorandum from Aleksandr Shelepin to Nikita Khruschev and represents the total number of executions during the April-May 1940 action, including 7300 persons murdered in Belorussia and Ukraine). The relatives of the victims in the Soviet-occupied part of Poland were subjected to one of the most severe repressions - deportation to the Gulag. In postwar Poland, they were not allowed to speak of the manner in which their loved ones died, and had to mourn them in complete silence
- the recently-discovered graves filled with Polish corpses near Tavda and Tomsk, east of the Ural Mountains
- the forced death marches to the interior of the Soviet Union following the June 1941 German invasion
- the massive, cold-blooded executions of thousands of prisoners in occupied Eastern Poland in the first days of that invasion
- the establishment of a communist party in Nazi-occupied Poland in early 1942 with orders to destabilize the Polish Home Army by denouncing its members to the Gestapo
- the Moscow 1943 order to combat the Polish underground with "every possible means"
- the establishment in 1943 of the Moscow-based Union of Polish Patriots to take over the Polish government after the war
- the deliberate withholding of material and military assistance to the defenders of Warsaw during the 1944 uprising
- Stalin's 1944 order to liquidate the members of all Polish underground forces, which resulted in the execution of thousands of Polish soldiers and the arrest and deportation of tens of thousands to the interior of the Soviet Union
- the luring of sixteen Polish leaders to Moscow in March 1945 and their show trial
​
 
Upvote 0
#8
Knapp|3. SS| said:
These are only SOME of the russians crimes committed.
- the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its secret Protocol for the partition of Poland
- the invasion and occupation in September 1939 of Eastern Poland, an area containing eight out of sixteen Poland's prewar provinces and representing 52 percent of Polish soil with over 13 million people
- the consequent breaking of two bilateral treaties with Poland, namely - the 1921 Treaty of Riga and the 1932 Polish-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, renewed in 1934 for an additional ten years; moreover, as a member (since 1934) of the League of Nations, the Soviet Union violated at least three multilateral pacts as well
- the gratuitous handing over of Wilno and the Wilno region to Lithuania in exchange for allowing the Soviets to have military bases in that country
- the rigged plebiscites on the basis of which the occupied Polish territories were incorporated into the Belorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR
- the wholesale looting of Polish raw materials, agricultural produce and both movable and immovable goods to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union
- the wrecking of the Polish economy and the banking system
- the subversion of the Polish educational system, the arts, and the free press
- the trampling underfoot of human rights, including the freedoms of free speech, assembly and worship
- the confiscation of all Polish private and state landed property
- exorbitant taxation without representation
- the four massive and other, less-known smaller deportations of entire Polish families to the Gulag
- the massive arrests of so-called counterrevolutionaries and anti-Soviet elements
- the internment of Polish POWs in forced-labour camps in occupied Eastern Poland and the USSR
- the 1940 cold-blooded execution and burial in mass graves in Katyn, Mednoye and Kharkov of 21 857 Polish prisoners (this exact number of those murdered comes from a 1959 KGB memorandum from Aleksandr Shelepin to Nikita Khruschev and represents the total number of executions during the April-May 1940 action, including 7300 persons murdered in Belorussia and Ukraine). The relatives of the victims in the Soviet-occupied part of Poland were subjected to one of the most severe repressions - deportation to the Gulag. In postwar Poland, they were not allowed to speak of the manner in which their loved ones died, and had to mourn them in complete silence
- the recently-discovered graves filled with Polish corpses near Tavda and Tomsk, east of the Ural Mountains
- the forced death marches to the interior of the Soviet Union following the June 1941 German invasion
- the massive, cold-blooded executions of thousands of prisoners in occupied Eastern Poland in the first days of that invasion
- the establishment of a communist party in Nazi-occupied Poland in early 1942 with orders to destabilize the Polish Home Army by denouncing its members to the Gestapo
- the Moscow 1943 order to combat the Polish underground with "every possible means"
- the establishment in 1943 of the Moscow-based Union of Polish Patriots to take over the Polish government after the war
- the deliberate withholding of material and military assistance to the defenders of Warsaw during the 1944 uprising
- Stalin's 1944 order to liquidate the members of all Polish underground forces, which resulted in the execution of thousands of Polish soldiers and the arrest and deportation of tens of thousands to the interior of the Soviet Union
- the luring of sixteen Polish leaders to Moscow in March 1945 and their show trial
​
Click to expand...

I think it would be more appropriate for you to post the warcrimes of 3. SS...
 
Upvote 0
#10
Why would it be approriate? I've never denied the war crimes of the 3.SS. I am simply posting these Russian atrocities because it seems there are ALOT of people on these forums who deny that the russians killed innocent civilans..as well as raping as many as 100,000 woman in Germany. 85% of German 6th Armee Prisoners never returned from the Gulags. Woman and girls ages 8-80 were ruthlessy and brutaly raped in Berlin. The crimes of the Waffen-SS are always talked about and are obvious..however Soviet crimes need to be brought into the light.


Thank you Wilsonam btw for you view on Censorship. If anyone wants to call me a Nazi go ahead..let me just tell you that I am Puerto Rican, so if you think I'm chanting WHITE POWER or any of that bs your wrong.
 
Upvote 0
#12
Knapp|3. SS| said:
Why would it be approriate? I've never denied the war crimes of the 3.SS. I am simply posting these Russian atrocities because it seems there are ALOT of people on these forums who deny that the russians killed innocent civilans..as well as raping as many as 100,000 woman in Germany. 85% of German 6th Armee Prisoners never returned from the Gulags. Woman and girls ages 8-80 were ruthlessy and brutaly raped in Berlin. The crimes of the Waffen-SS are always talked about and are obvious..however Soviet crimes need to be brought into the light.


Thank you Wilsonam btw for you view on Censorship. If anyone wants to call me a Nazi go ahead..let me just tell you that I am Puerto Rican, so if you think I'm chanting WHITE POWER or any of that bs your wrong.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I came off a little rude. And I do not think that you are a nazi, but with the 3. SS tag in your name, it seemed to me like a "I have a SS name because russians comitted crimes too"-reason to post the russian crimes. Well, that is settled then ;)
 
Upvote 0
#14
And we are talking about the crimes attributed to units that are likely to be taken as names by clans. That long list of Stalinist activities may well be true - but very little of it relates to clan names!

I'm trying to finish writing a piece on the ideologies and their consequences. In the meantime, we will not, repeat NOT, get into a slanging match in this thread about who was worse than who.

Clan members/leaders - up to you to take note and ensure that the lid stays ON the zoo, please :)
 
Upvote 0
#15
Steve Connors said:
is Panzer Abteilung 505 offensive? we just changed our clan name to it, as far as I know it is just a basic german tank division
Click to expand...
See the bit where it says "go do the research"? ;)

Ah well - it says ask me, too.

The unit was actually schwere Panzer Abteilung 505. Heavy Tank Battalion 505. Standard Heer unit. Offensive - not that I am aware of. Wish more people would pick nice simple unit names :)
 
Upvote 0
#16
Knapp|3. SS| said:
These are only SOME of the russians crimes committed.

- the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its secret Protocol for the partition of Poland
- the invasion and occupation in September 1939 of Eastern Poland, an area containing eight out of sixteen Poland's prewar provinces and representing 52 percent of Polish soil with over 13 million people
- the consequent breaking of two bilateral treaties with Poland, namely - the 1921 Treaty of Riga and the 1932 Polish-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, renewed in 1934 for an additional ten years; moreover, as a member (since 1934) of the League of Nations, the Soviet Union violated at least three multilateral pacts as well
- the gratuitous handing over of Wilno and the Wilno region to Lithuania in exchange for allowing the Soviets to have military bases in that country
- the rigged plebiscites on the basis of which the occupied Polish territories were incorporated into the Belorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR
- the wholesale looting of Polish raw materials, agricultural produce and both movable and immovable goods to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union
- the wrecking of the Polish economy and the banking system
- the subversion of the Polish educational system, the arts, and the free press
- the trampling underfoot of human rights, including the freedoms of free speech, assembly and worship
- the confiscation of all Polish private and state landed property
- exorbitant taxation without representation
- the four massive and other, less-known smaller deportations of entire Polish families to the Gulag
- the massive arrests of so-called counterrevolutionaries and anti-Soviet elements
- the internment of Polish POWs in forced-labour camps in occupied Eastern Poland and the USSR
- the 1940 cold-blooded execution and burial in mass graves in Katyn, Mednoye and Kharkov of 21 857 Polish prisoners (this exact number of those murdered comes from a 1959 KGB memorandum from Aleksandr Shelepin to Nikita Khruschev and represents the total number of executions during the April-May 1940 action, including 7300 persons murdered in Belorussia and Ukraine). The relatives of the victims in the Soviet-occupied part of Poland were subjected to one of the most severe repressions - deportation to the Gulag. In postwar Poland, they were not allowed to speak of the manner in which their loved ones died, and had to mourn them in complete silence
- the recently-discovered graves filled with Polish corpses near Tavda and Tomsk, east of the Ural Mountains
- the forced death marches to the interior of the Soviet Union following the June 1941 German invasion
- the massive, cold-blooded executions of thousands of prisoners in occupied Eastern Poland in the first days of that invasion
- the establishment of a communist party in Nazi-occupied Poland in early 1942 with orders to destabilize the Polish Home Army by denouncing its members to the Gestapo
- the Moscow 1943 order to combat the Polish underground with "every possible means"
- the establishment in 1943 of the Moscow-based Union of Polish Patriots to take over the Polish government after the war
- the deliberate withholding of material and military assistance to the defenders of Warsaw during the 1944 uprising
- Stalin's 1944 order to liquidate the members of all Polish underground forces, which resulted in the execution of thousands of Polish soldiers and the arrest and deportation of tens of thousands to the interior of the Soviet Union
- the luring of sixteen Polish leaders to Moscow in March 1945 and their show trial

​
Click to expand...

When somebody joins up and starts promoting a clan based on the units that committed the atrocities you listed, they will get EXACTLY the same warning.

But as you can see, very few people even try.
 
Upvote 0
#17
[RO]Wilsonam said:
And we are talking about the crimes attributed to units that are likely to be taken as names by clans. That long list of Stalinist activities may well be true - but very little of it relates to clan names!

I'm trying to finish writing a piece on the ideologies and their consequences. In the meantime, we will not, repeat NOT, get into a slanging match in this thread about who was worse than who.

Clan members/leaders - up to you to take note and ensure that the lid stays ON the zoo, please :)
Click to expand...

This will be my last post on this thread, but I believe the 150th Rifle Division and 5th Shock Army belongs in those catagories, those 2 Divisons had the most grosteque actions in the Battle for Berlin.
 
Upvote 0
#18
Knapp|3. SS| said:
This will be my last post on this thread, but I believe the 150th Rifle Division and 5th Shock Army belongs in those catagories, those 2 Divisons had the most grosteque actions in the Battle for Berlin.
Click to expand...
Last post on this thread: wise move. This isn't a debating forum

As for specific Soviet units, I haven't seen any details of specific war crimes/atrocities to date. There are plenty of GENERIC accusations, such as the Red Army's behaviour on the way through East Prussia and into Germany proper. However, these are attributable to individual Soviet units in much the same way that the burning of 1,700 villages in Byelorussia is attributable to the Wehrmacht as a whole.

In other words, I am concerned with SPECIFICS, not generic atrocities.

For instance, the Soviet units (NKVD etc) that took part at Katyn are not welcome here. Not sure that they've ever been identified. However, clans wishing to use the unit names of some of the NKVD units would be well advised to check their histories. Same rules apply. Don't turn up calling yourself a "Blocking Detachment" for instance.

And this is NOT a debate. It is concerned with people demonstrating that they understand the history of the units they are portraying - do NOT start about others' choice of unit name in public. Leave that to the moderators!
 
Upvote 0
#19
[RO]Wilsonam said:
See the bit where it says "go do the research"? ;)
Ah well - it says ask me, too.
The unit was actually schwere Panzer Abteilung 505. Heavy Tank Battalion 505. Standard Heer unit. Offensive - not that I am aware of. Wish more people would pick nice simple unit names :)
Click to expand...

cool beans, we aim to please. :) I am a part of that new group, formed form an old group specifically for RO:O. Me and Steve have been gaming together for years (as have most of the 505).

Looking forward to release. :D
 
Upvote 0
#20
Wilsonam I under stand that these divisions have done so many bad things in the war, But The Clan name with just eg 5thSs-Rebel. Why isnt it not ok to represent a division very good at fighting, as long as they dont reflect on personal members, and there things they did out of the battle itself. Furthermore that they only choose that name and reflect on there skills of warefare.

So if they reflect on just the name and skills on the battlefieldm without going out of battle and no personal people,

What is Wrong with that?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Community News
Forums
Merch
Menu