• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Level Design SDK is finally relased!

Yes because it was SO much fun in RO1 to be stuck defending an objective for 15-60 minutes ;) It's so much better to be bored for a very long time attacking an objective when the teams are stacked, or defending an objective forever when the attacking team can't get momentum. Those were the days...

Lockdown and and of itself is a good idea, but it may need to be more lenient. Sometimes it feels like its a bit too hurried. Increasing it by at least a few minutes for each objective might help a bit, or at the least makes things feel less rushed.

And I hate to say it so directly, but the shift zoom plays into it. people (often including me) feel more like sitting back at the rear and sides of the map and shooting at distant targets. If the shift zoom wasnt quite so intense, people might start feeling the need to move up to get to better combat ranges (and ergo, move closer to objectives). getting killed sucks, and nobody likes having it happen to them.. so they sit at the back of the map and shoot at their own leisure with intense FOV decrease.

Also on a sidenote, "Lockdown" seems like a rather gamey name, something like "Forced Retreat" would have been better IMO; seeing as that's basically what it would be in real life, if anything was comaprable to lockdown... basically when the high command goes "**** it, pull back."

I guess its a bit late now though :( Not sure if lockdown *tweaking* could be done with a mutator, though I can imagine that outright removal would work.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Britney Federline
Upvote 0
Lockdown and and of itself is a good idea, but it may need to be more lenient. Sometimes it feels like its a bit too hurried. Increasing it by at least a few minutes for each objective might help a bit, or at the least makes things feel less rushed.

it reminds me a bit of arma 2, and some of the custom maps that gave you enough time so you had to bumrush the objectives and not sit on a hill nearby softening them up :p
 
Upvote 0
You can't deny that the lockdown feature was badly receive by the community, and if you want to please your customers, you can't keep such thing as it is right now.

Actually I can deny this :) One of the worse mistakes you can make as a designer (and I am assuming you're a designer if your hanging out in the level design forums) is to assume that "everyone" feels the same way as you do. A small but vocal group of people on a gaming forum does not constitute "everyone". We made this mistake back in the early RO days. There was a feature in the game (I can't remember what it was) but "everyone" on the forums said they wanted it changed. Every time there was a poll 90%+ of people would say that they wanted it changed. So we listened to "everyone" and changed it. Guess what happened. As it turns out the real "everyone" (as in the masses playing the game) actually liked it how it was ORIGINALLY before we changed it. There was outrage in the general RO community, and a rash of people coming to the forums to express that they loved the feature the way that it was, and wanted it changed back. As it turned out about 90% of the people playing the game liked it and didn't want it changed.

So what was the problem here? How could the forums have been so wrong? Two reasons:
1) The forums generally represent less than 1% of the playerbase in size (in the case of RO2 its probably less than 0.01%). In other words, way less than 1% of players ever even post on the forums, so you have an extremely small sample size.
2) Players almost NEVER go on to the forums to let you know that they like the status quo. You won't get a rash of people dropping in to say "you know what, I just wanted to say I love everything just the way it is". It is the nature of the internet the people usually go to the forums when they have something they want to gripe about, or have changed.

So what is a designer to do in this situation? How do you sort the minority gripes from the true problems? Well first off you have to be quick to listen, fast to investigate, but slow to change. What that means is listen to what the community are saying, investigate and get some good data, but let things ride for a little bit to see how they are truly going to flow out. It also means getting out there and playing the game with a lot of different people on a lot of different servers. If you always play the game with the same set of people, you'll always end up with similar results. So you have to jump around and test the waters.

A prime example of this was RO:Ostfront. When we first released it there were some maps that when it first came out were ALWAYS won by the same team. There were outcries on the forums about how unbalanced certain levels were. Then within a couple weeks of the launch as people learned the maps, what routes to take, where to go, etc the balance of some of these maps shifted completely in the opposite direction with no changes from the dev team. So to sum up on this point, sometimes the initial reaction from a group of players isn't the correct reaction, and as they learn the maps, gameplay, functionality, the balance or flow can change. So you have to be a little patient to see how things play out.

So with all of that said we are looking into some tweaks to countdown as in some cases it works great, and in other cases it is not working out as well as we intended. Anyone who ever spent an entire hour stuck on the first objective on Berazina in RO1 knows that a system like this was needed. It rewards the defenders for playing aggressively and forces the attackers out of their hidey holes eventually. But as I said, we're giving it a couple of weeks for people to get used to all the new gameplay mechanics before we start rashly changing things but there is likely some changes coming.

Finally, and most importantly, the great thing about an SDK is that the power is in YOUR hands now to experiment with all these things. Try taking lockdown out, adding features we didn't think of, tweaking values, etc. If one of you all make a mutator or mode that EVERYONE (the REAL everyone) just loves we'll probably adopt it as official :) So go forth and show us what you can do!
 
Upvote 0
finally, and most importantly, the great thing about an sdk is that the power is in your hands now to experiment with all these things. Try taking lockdown out, adding features we didn't think of, tweaking values, etc. If one of you all make a mutator or mode that everyone (the real everyone) just loves we'll probably adopt it as official :) so go forth and show us what you can do!

full of win
 
Upvote 0
Actually I can deny this :)...
Nice post. I'm no designer, but I'm a big fan of mods and custom maps so I like to hang around this section. Anyway, it feels really good to be listened :D

I agree that these forums represent a very small part of the community, but, in my 76h of beta and 40h of retail, almost every time I've played in ROF and CH with 64 players there were people (from both teams sometimes) complaining about lockdown and how it kills the fun they are having, either causing a tasteless victory for the defenders and a frustrating defeat for the attackers, and most players agree and I have yet to see someone disagreeing.

Lockdown does't need to be completely thrown out of the window outright, as it's perfect as it is in Spartanovka, but the way it is right now in some maps it's only another cause of unbalance. If you tweak lockdown and make it like Spartanovka in all attack/defense maps, it might be a success.

I strongly recommend you to infiltrate 64 player servers as an anonymous ROplayer in the Russian team, watch how lockdown hurts the gameplay in Red October Factory and Commissar's House and compare them to Spartanovka. My suggestion for these maps is keeping lockdown only for the first objectives and disabling it after them and in the case the defenders retake them. If the team managed to cap the first objectives, it means they can also cap the other ones, thus lockdown has no use anymore other than beign another tool of defense for the defenders.

I praise your hard and dedicated work, I really do, but in ROF and CH the gamemode should be called time trial instead of territory at the moment :D

EDIT:
I admit I didn't think through you post the right way when I posted this, but now I did, I should have said that you are very wrong by saying that our opinions are irrelevant and that our feeback doesn't matter because the majority is not on these forums. It's also a minority of the people having performance issues and bugs that come here to complain, so following your logic, you should care much about those issues, because it's just a minority that's suffering them, right? I hope that's just stress, Ramm, because it would be extremely disappointing to hear from Tripwire, a company which for a long time I've considered one of the most dedicated to their fans, that they consider these forums pointless and don't care about our feedback anymore. There's a saying in my country: "don't sh!t where you eat"
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Well it seems to be a big difference if you play on Europe or US Servers imho (me playing on Europe ones). Basically you get about 50/50 Map wins in my rather limited experience.

Yes the Mkb42 is a very good weapon, so was the Stg44 the Maps are actually quite well balanced. At least thats my impression on the current age of the Game. Can't comment on Gumrak though, didn't get to play that often enough to comment.


P.S.

Yeah Lockdown was needed.
 
Upvote 0
Actually I can deny this :) One of the worse mistakes you can make as a designer (and I am assuming you're a designer if your hanging out in the level design forums) is to assume that "everyone" feels the same way as you do. A small but vocal group of people on a gaming forum does not constitute "everyone". We made this mistake back in the early RO days. There was a feature in the game (I can't remember what it was) but "everyone" on the forums said they wanted it changed. Every time there was a poll 90%+ of people would say that they wanted it changed. So we listened to "everyone" and changed it. Guess what happened. As it turns out the real "everyone" (as in the masses playing the game) actually liked it how it was ORIGINALLY before we changed it. There was outrage in the general RO community, and a rash of people coming to the forums to express that they loved the feature the way that it was, and wanted it changed back. As it turned out about 90% of the people playing the game liked it and didn't want it changed.

So what was the problem here? How could the forums have been so wrong? Two reasons:
1) The forums generally represent less than 1% of the playerbase in size (in the case of RO2 its probably less than 0.01%). In other words, way less than 1% of players ever even post on the forums, so you have an extremely small sample size.
2) Players almost NEVER go on to the forums to let you know that they like the status quo. You won't get a rash of people dropping in to say "you know what, I just wanted to say I love everything just the way it is". It is the nature of the internet the people usually go to the forums when they have something they want to gripe about, or have changed.

So what is a designer to do in this situation? How do you sort the minority gripes from the true problems? Well first off you have to be quick to listen, fast to investigate, but slow to change. What that means is listen to what the community are saying, investigate and get some good data, but let things ride for a little bit to see how they are truly going to flow out. It also means getting out there and playing the game with a lot of different people on a lot of different servers. If you always play the game with the same set of people, you'll always end up with similar results. So you have to jump around and test the waters.

A prime example of this was RO:Ostfront. When we first released it there were some maps that when it first came out were ALWAYS won by the same team. There were outcries on the forums about how unbalanced certain levels were. Then within a couple weeks of the launch as people learned the maps, what routes to take, where to go, etc the balance of some of these maps shifted completely in the opposite direction with no changes from the dev team. So to sum up on this point, sometimes the initial reaction from a group of players isn't the correct reaction, and as they learn the maps, gameplay, functionality, the balance or flow can change. So you have to be a little patient to see how things play out.

So with all of that said we are looking into some tweaks to countdown as in some cases it works great, and in other cases it is not working out as well as we intended. Anyone who ever spent an entire hour stuck on the first objective on Berazina in RO1 knows that a system like this was needed. It rewards the defenders for playing aggressively and forces the attackers out of their hidey holes eventually. But as I said, we're giving it a couple of weeks for people to get used to all the new gameplay mechanics before we start rashly changing things but there is likely some changes coming.

Finally, and most importantly, the great thing about an SDK is that the power is in YOUR hands now to experiment with all these things. Try taking lockdown out, adding features we didn't think of, tweaking values, etc. If one of you all make a mutator or mode that EVERYONE (the REAL everyone) just loves we'll probably adopt it as official :) So go forth and show us what you can do!
Bad post.
You still ignore the issues at hand, that are alive on this very forum.
 
Upvote 0
Bad post.
You still ignore the issues at hand, that are alive on this very forum.

Can't see why its a bad post. They wont hide they communicate.

While he explained clear that the forum represent only a few players.
And also mention everyone can use the SDK to create stuff they forgot or take out what they added.

Might be good to mention that when more attackers decide to get in the area which need to be taken instead of stack up somewhere back shooting enemies the lockdown option would never been invented.
 
Upvote 0
Yes because it was SO much fun in RO1 to be stuck defending an objective for 15-60 minutes ;) It's so much better to be bored for a very long time attacking an objective when the teams are stacked, or defending an objective forever when the attacking team can't get momentum. Those were the days...

Those were the days! :D

In all seriousness I think the only 'problem' with lockdown is that it cuts out a few tactical possibility that do not include the attackers loosing. The one main example of that is that the attackers can still get 'lockdown' if they have more reinforcements then the defenders. So if the defenders have been wasting their reinforcements, they can still squeak a win out of just holding on long enough. In RO1 that would have been a decisive victory for the attackers, but a loss in RO2 because attrition is not accounted for.

Other then that yes lockdown is nice because it pisses people off and might tempt a few of em to switch teams so they can get a real round in if the teams are stacked.:)
 
Upvote 0
I have to say. The way that roles are picked in this editor is really weird.

I prefered the old Dino Heads on the maps with the role names in RO1. Was a lot easier and better. This squad thing is kinda stupid.

Having more freedom in deciding what kind of squads you have is inferior? While the UI is different and has a lot of tabs, I think the current system is better ;)
Remember that you can also just make one complete squad and then copy it few times so you have enough roles for 64 players. After that go in and tweak the roles individually.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
BEEG POAST
Sorry, but your logic is very, very flawed.
The only thing that makes us a minority is the fact that we're vocal. The massive drop in player numbers shows that opinion-wise, we aren't a minority. A lot of people who are disappointed just can't be bothered to post, they just stop playing and move on to the next big FPS games. RO2 has design flaws that are just plain bad, denying this as your player numbers drop is a terrible move, but it's what you seem to be doing. RO2 is looking more and more like it'll fall apart OFP Dragon Rising style.

Your mistake was that you thought making RO2 less unique would make it sell more. By making it more of a run-of-the-mill shooter, you disappointed people who wanted a realistic FPS/full RO1 sequel. By still keeping in large chunks of realism, you disappointed the more arcade-liking fanbase. It's nigh impossible to satisfy both extremes in one game.
This is not the ideal mix of realism and arcade gameplay. RO1 was. I'm sure we all thought RO2 would be much like RO1, but with the sensible additions such as the zoom, cover system and more realistic (faster) movement speeds.

You messed up when you made sway totally insignificant, added a completely unrealistic, unbalanced and unfun unlock system, pants-on-head class limits and a bunch of ridiculous guns that again are not fun, not balanced and not realistic.
All you'd have to do to make the game we want is make a mode that tweaks and removes things. Forcing players to do this through modding will cause a lack of standardisation, meaning that finding the right servers will be extremely difficult. Not having such a mode on release has already done some damage.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
SDK on steam

SDK on steam

I think thats the title of the thread :)
And if its not in your steam tools area what do i do.
1 Restart Steam --check
2 restart steam ofline then online--check
3 Check for steam client updates -- check
4 Reboot Pc -- check
5 repeat steps 1 and 2 --check
6 Post on Forums--check
7 Pull hair out awaiting reply--check!

edit asked for key on other thread
still stuck at step 7

8 Key arrives via PM in forum add to steam as new game downloading sdk now! woo hoo.. thanxs Yoshiro and Tripwire
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
So how do we turn off Lockdown?

I've been looking in the editor for a while and can't seem to find it.

You can't just "turn it off". It's a property of each ROObjective actor.
Though I suppose setting the time to 0 will effectively shut down lockdown for that specific objective.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
I think thats the title of the thread :)
And if its not in your steam tools area what do i do.
1 Restart Steam --check
2 restart steam ofline then online--check
3 Check for steam client updates -- check
4 Reboot Pc -- check
5 repeat steps 1 and 2 --check
6 Post on Forums--check
7 Pull hair out awaiting reply--check!

edit asked for key on other thread
still stuck at step 7
going through these right now...
edit: is there a specific reason for the "red orchestra: ostfront 41-45" entry in my toolbox? i cant remember buying that game :D

edit2:
Yeah, gotta get the key FIRST before the SDK even shows up to download. This is NOT explained in Ramm's post. And in fact, the "SDK is finally released!" thread in the "Level Design" forum makes it sound like people just went into Tools and straight got it.

nvm, that explains it
(well, the first thing, not the second one)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Actually I can deny this :) [...] So go forth and show us what you can do!

By always ignoring and mocking others opinions you are just becoming execrable.

Your logic is so biased is seems to be a joke :
If you complain you are part of a minority that is too small to be taken into account but if you don't complain it's because you love the way it is, as you don't complain.
This is just unreal.

Please open your eyes.

Everyone here is just hoping for one thing : YOUR game to be the biggest success ever.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
The Key is the Key

The Key is the Key

going through these right now...
edit: is there a specific reason for the "red orchestra: ostfront 41-45" entry in my toolbox? i cant remember buying that game :D

edit2:


nvm, that explains it
(well, the first thing, not the second one)

Thnx so its like installing a game ...duh! well i've saved on the barbers at least.

sit and wait for my key
 
Upvote 0