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Examples:
So people get the idea, some examples that would be considered offensive, numbered as above:
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  3. This one should be pretty obvious...
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  • Stiltzkin,

    I was obviously joking. I do not identify with secret police of murderous regimes of any kind, I thought the sarcasm was obvious. Apparently, it wasn't.

    Anyway, to keep this reply short and SORT OF on topic, I'll leave the discussion of operational art, tactics, statistic etc behind, and will concentrate solely on the claims of russian bias.


    Just a quick thought: You say Glantz fell out of favor in Russia after writing the book about Operation Mars. Today that is certainly not the case. He is a well respected historian in Russia, as evidenced by him recently being awarded by the Russian Ministy of Defense.
    https://latestnewsresource.com/en/ne...oborony-rossii

    Now, excuse me if I am wrong, but your join date is march of last year, that means you most likely weren't here in the times when the RO2 forum was actually alive and discussing ballance and preformance of weapons. The center of this discussion always ended up at PPSh and the tanks.

    First of all, lets mention the tanks, which are the easiest to answer, at least in my view.

    Their armor system fu*king sucks and has never-ever worked as intended. It is not IOM's fault that they are this way. I've had numerous discussions on this on and off forum. Nothing works as intended. As an armored warfare enthusiast, RO2 tanks make my blood boil.


    Now with that out of my system, let's move on to the weapons.

    So far the only thing you've come up with as "soviet bias" is the PPSh's performance. You question it as the best WW2 SMG. My response to that is: Even if it wasn't exactly the best , it certainly was in the top of the list, ahead of both the Thompson and the MP40 (Please just call it that- Schmeisser had nothing to do with the thing).

    The light recoil/high velocity of the Tokarev round combined with the heavy weapon and magazine, long barrel made the PPSh an accurate and easily controllable SMG at ranges considered challanging for SMGs. This is clearly visible in its operators manual.

    (It is in hungarian, I am sorry for that- I shall translate when I get back in a few hours, or possibly tomorrow.)

    Spoiler!

    Spoiler!


    Also, I did not imply that you were a fascist. That is stupid. What I've said was you seem to have the bias of most western history enthusiasts who have been almost exclusively exposed to memoirs of axis veterans who most certainly paint the soviet military as woefully incompetent rabble only winning because of their numbers.
    My favorite reply for this is in an article I've read long ago about artilliery employment in the soviet military. It was possibly by Glantz, sadly I have lost it. In it he pointed out the amount of units which have actually been destroyed by soviet barrages, yet the german reports have always somehow stated that the soviets just couldn't get artilliery support right. The simplest answer is- the veterans who made those reports are the ones who didn't get hit by those barrages. All the people who could tell you about their lethality are, well...- dead. As you might imagine, this applies to other weapons too.
    Last edited by Avtomat; 02-28-2016, 05:56 PM.

    Comment


    • I am not writing this because I want to talk to stilitzkin as much as I want to clarify few things so people will not get confused by this whole nonsense he says. I am doing it one and last time as i have absolutely zero desire of talking to him.


      First thing to clarify
      Last edited by aaz777; 02-27-2016, 05:52 PM.
      playing RO since 2009.
      IOM 3d modeller, animator, historical research. IOMmod.ucoz.com

      Comment


      • Stiltzkin,

        I was obviously joking. I do not identify with secret police of murderous regimes of any kind, I thought the sarcasm was obvious. Apparently, it wasn't.
        I figured.

        Avtomat, again Glantz has been criticized on the international stage and that criticism is absolutely justified (he wrote that book in 99, so the issue is from the past). Did you even read the Dupuy Institute critique? He used questionable 2ndary sources which a guy of his format should not have done. There were rumors of him getting paid under the table to actually "distort" conclusions. Glantz is also not an expert on Soviet artillery. I don't ask a cook how to fix a wound.
        Next thing, i could talk about hundreds of things in game that are far from accurate but my recent rambling was about this particular issue and people in this thread are starting to get annoyed.

        Schmeisser had nothing to do with the thing
        I sure hope you're joking. Lahti took most of the design from the Bergmann. It is like saying Chinese tanks aren't based on Soviet Ts.

        The light recoil/high velocity of the Tokarev round combined with the heavy weapon and magazine, long barrel made the PPSh an accurate and easily controllable SMG at ranges considered challanging for SMGs. This is clearly visible in its operators manual.
        This does not say anything about its stopping power. I could post the Thompson and Mp40 manuals as well. I will actually look into this and await your translation.

        It is in hungarian, I am sorry for that- I shall translate when I get back in a few hours, or possibly tomorrow.)
        Thank you and i was around since the very beginning of RO1, i just made a new account after years. Dibbler started to tweak tanking and it was far better than vanilla. In 2011 the tanking was actually a bit more accurate but people in the forums started to complain.


        . In it he pointed out the amount of units which have actually been destroyed by soviet barrages, yet the german reports have always somehow stated that the soviets just couldn't get artilliery support right. The simplest answer is- the veterans who made those reports are the ones who didn't get hit by those barrages. All the people who could tell you about their lethality are, well...- dead. As you might imagine, this applies to other weapons too.
        See. This. I think youre idealizing things again. This is exactly what i mean, mindfarts , stories ("i have lost it"). I need data, sources, analysis and not glorification. Last week a guy was telling me a Soviet managed to kill 30 germans with an Axe and later asked Stalin to buy him a MG. This does not apply to the real combat evaluations. Glantz took Soviet sources for german casualties, which were highly inflated. Quality of sources decreased over the years, either give me some from War times or after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Stavka usually received inflated numbers by 90-140% with a coefficient of 1:9.01 , German accounts were usually off by 30-50% so OKH usually subtracted those so they would bring the coefficient down to 1.02. "Credibility". I analyzed WW2 artillery effectivness, it gave me an insight into why the losses were actually so disproportionate....
        Against bias, propaganda, dictatorship and myths. I despise all Nazi apologists and Soviet fanboys who have a childs understanding of historical/technical/scientific/political complexity.

        Comment


        • Stiltzkin, come on man, insulting other members and moreover any developers such as IOM, HotW Singapore and etc. is over the top and you clearly knew there will be consequences, so here you are, banned.(I hope that will teach you some manners).

          Comment


          • I really don't feel like getting dragged into all the topics at hand. But these two are issues which I'll provide my input on:

            From the chart, PPSh is more accurate on semi-automatic, but is not so great on full-auto. The MP34 is one of the better choices of the bunch for accuracy. It also does not say how many shots per burst, or how long the burst was (at least in the translation provided.) This (worse-accuracy for PPSh on auto) is because, even if it does have lower recoil shot-per-shot, it fires nearly twice as fast. Let's suppose you have 25% less recoil but fire 2x as fast - your overall recoil will be 1.5x as much as the weapon being compared to (not exactly 1.5x as the exact physics behind it are immensely more complex, but it is a way of understanding what's going on.) Inherently the weapon is less accurate at further ranges.


            Also the points about Stalingrad street fighting are important. In a variety of books and sources, you can find that German Company Commanders and the units that entered the city were actually incredibly under-strength; sometimes even launching attacks with enough men that you could count on both your hands. Despite this, Soviet casualties are astronomically high, to the point that one seriously has to question what the Soviet High Command was doing with their troops.

            Even with the surrender of 6th Army and the complete destruction of the units defending their flanks, Soviet casualties are disgustingly higher. This video gives a fairly good visual representation of the deaths (NOTE: ONLY DEATHS. So we have one solid staple to get a visual representation of. P.S. The whole video is good, but Stalingrad is around 5m:10s.) https://vimeo.com/128373915
            Last edited by Panzer Jager '43; 02-27-2016, 08:59 PM.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • [QUOTE]First thing to clarify
              Against bias, propaganda, dictatorship and myths. I despise all Nazi apologists and Soviet fanboys who have a childs understanding of historical/technical/scientific/political complexity.

              Comment


              • I Dont think Stiltzkin was in the mood to insault anybody . Just the subject took a wrong caurse. He wasnt saying all that to go agaisnt IOM . I am sure wants to see this mod doing well . The thing is IOM isnt going very well . Well here i will say MY Opinions . Just because this conversation opened. Firstly we DONT play as Squads. We play as loose Talibans in IOM and In RO2 in General . Days ago i saw some videos of Explosetoi . For an event they made . They made it PERFECT . Even with Vanilla setings. They moved as teams ,with Squad leaders and a Commander on TOP. Communicate and so on! Better sounds and MORE weapons doesnt make the game much More immersive to me (it needs to be played properly as teams).Its a small touch though .We still HAVE RAMBO mg firing and many weapons intended for close ranges that can take you with ease from a KILOMETER away.We could consantrated on those matters instead of adding a tone of NEW stuff and playing SPARTA to ... TEST the spades.Though many new assets are nice . Like Attach/Dittach bayos, and a big Thanks to guys like AAZ they worked on such a system.And of causrse our Pre coders such as Panzer Jager(Tremozl) ! Surely the team became smaller and smaller . FOR LOTS of reasons. And i dont think IOM its gonna have its OLD day glorys. BTW Dont forget this is MY opinion !! . Tanks in RO2 are ... Badly made . IOM should fix some . It did. Tried, and fixed some . But stills USSR tanks WAY better than German ones. German ones are basically TOASTS. I think Stiltzkin is Refering mostly to those stuff. And by saying RIP IOM doesnt Insult anybody . Ask another pre_member like Panzer Jager or Dibbler. Would they banned this guy beacuse he said RIP IOM ??? IOM its FAR better than vanilla. We ALL recognise that . BUT has many flaws they need to be fixed to feel a better game. But NOt many stand to fix those (because they are Busy or Away of this mod). Open your eyes . We Still the same Old wolves here playing the same game . We are ALL more or less IOM veterans . And IOM stayed with A Modeler/Animator and A Coder wich i DONT think he is in the mood to spend his youth on this . ! .
                Last edited by postamenos12; 02-27-2016, 09:13 PM.

                Comment


                • The video you are refering is a special event: Operation Citadelle
                  Made on modified map with no capzone and no timer and few respawns.
                  Modified rules.
                  Only Commanders know what is going to happen, so soldiers can't rush and gun
                  THEY REALLY NEED ORDERS!!!

                  When transports will be fixed in IOM, we will use it and surely this will be the ultimate RO2 way to play. (everybody is welcome)

                  Arguing on forum is fine/ During event is boring!
                  Last edited by eXplosetoi; 02-28-2016, 04:44 AM.

                  Comment


                  • If a person get banned on a server, steam group or any other media outside this forum, then it's between him/her and that media. Do not bring the ban discussion to this forum. It's against our forum rules. If this ban-chat continues, then all participants that kept it ongoing will find in infraction/warning in their in-box.
                    TWB*BlueDuck

                    Comment


                    • -Disregard-
                      First of all, considering Ducky's warning, I will put all semi-off topic contents of my post (so basically the whole post) in a spoiler tag to avoid cluttering the thread, I will do this to my other posts too, and urge other participants of this discussion to do the same.
                      -/Disregard-


                      First of all, I'm going to post the translated page from the PPSh-41 manual. The original material is titled "1941M. 7.62mm Submachinegun Material Knowlege and Shooting Instructions" in hungarian. The publication date is 1954, but I am about 99% sure that this is a direct translation from an earlier- most likely wartime booklet from the USSR. It dedicates a relatively few number of pages to shooting characteristics (6-7) considering the 130page size of the whole thing.


                      Spoiler!


                      Spoiler!

                      The next image deals with dispersion and aiming points in different weather conditions. For our purposes, these are not important, so I have excluded the image from this post. It is still in the previous post, though.

                      Here is the translated chart
                      Spoiler!

                      A "Machinegun" target shape means a figure of a prone combatant aiming a weapon.

                      -----------

                      The question of stopping power: It's not even a question, really.
                      While 7.62x25 has better flight characteristics, it's velocity doesn't entirely compensate for the edge 9mm lead or steel core ammo and .45ACP have in terminal ballistics. Though the edge is not as huge as one might think, considering the types of ammo used in WW2. They weren't firing modern JHP at eachother, now were they? And besides, the PPSh's rate of fire at close range still gives it an edge.

                      --------

                      Now the artilliery employment topic: I have found the the google docs link to the text and I needed authorisation to access it again.
                      I was wrong about it being written by Glantz. He was mentioned in the material by the author because he said he wished Glantz would write a piece on soviet tube and rocket artilliery.
                      My memory failed me because the last time I've read this short text was some 2-2,5 years ago.

                      Here is the original text:
                      "Preparatory fire strikes are probably as ill-understood in the West as accompanying fire support, particularly because the German victims of the fire strikes did not survive to write about them. This of course, makes battles in the main strike sectors inappropriate for company-level wargames, as it's not much fun to have a Soviet company with nothing to do but advance across a wasteland."
                      and a link where I've uploaded the whole text now copied into a Word document:

                      Sadly most links don't work anymore, but as you will figure out this isn't an essay, but a discussion with materials mentioned here an there.

                      "I sure hope you're joking. Lahti took most of the design from the Bergmann. It is like saying Chinese tanks aren't based on Soviet Ts."
                      I do not understand what Lahti has to do with the MP40 being incorrectly called Schmeisser. The only thing Schmeisser about the MP40 is it's magazine. The rest is the work of others.

                      And now I shall ask the question: What exactly makes you think of soviet bias in IOM? I mean, besides the PPSh and the incorrectly working tanks?
                      Last edited by Avtomat; 02-28-2016, 07:29 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Avtomat View Post
                        First of all, considering Ducky's warning, I will put all semi-off topic contents of my post (so basically the whole post) in a spoiler tag to avoid cluttering the thread, I will do this to my other posts too, and urge other participants of this discussion to do the same.


                        So, let's do this.
                        Spoiler!
                        I wasn't referring to post content like you placed within the spoiler, but to those posts that discuss the steam-group ban.
                        TWB*BlueDuck

                        Comment


                        • are the waffen SS skins still in IMO? if so can i have permission to make a skin mutator for them? so they run like the beta SNLF? (activate on a chosen map to run on vanilla game)

                          Comment


                          • We literally had full 50 players server today. First time for 2 years i think.
                            We can only imagine what will happen with next update that will bring some serious changes and new content that we didnt show before.
                            I am so excited.
                            playing RO since 2009.
                            IOM 3d modeller, animator, historical research. IOMmod.ucoz.com

                            Comment


                            • Yes it's been a while we have fullserver, of course I wasn't there....sh@t!
                              Once you've taste the cookie your trap!
                              Hope tuesday's event will do same...dreamer.

                              Comment


                              • Damn. I will have to wait until Sunday next week.

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