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At this part I can't see how the unlock system is supposed to be a good thing.

You know what else is realistic?

Veteran soldiers getting better equipment as they have proven that they know what they're doing. I'm also pretty sure a veteran soldier would be better at doing soldier things than a raw recruit.

That's a copout. If we're going that route then your stats should reset to 0 whenever you die and respawn.



Arbitrary stat boosts are bad. I don't know what the hell TWI were thinking when they decided that they should just give people who were playing longer significantly better stats.

I'm not sure if I'm going to keep my preorder at this point or not.
 
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I just want to point out that any complaint against the MP40 is answered with "It's realistic."

You know what else is realistic?

Veteran soldiers getting better equipment as they have proven that they know what they're doing. I'm also pretty sure a veteran soldier would be better at doing soldier things than a raw recruit. They would know how to control their weapon, how to reload it efficiently, how to draw beads on targets better.
Veteran players shouldn't need such advantages over others. Also, with the countless deaths in this game, and the fact that respawning is basically treated like taking control over the next poor guy to enter the fray, how does this veterancy thing make any sense?
These things all make sense and quite frankly I think the overall effect will be quite marginal. It's also not like a lot of the upgrades were extremely rare. Almost every picture I've seen of the PPSH has a soldier using a drum magazine.
Pretty much every Russian with a PPSh during the battle of Stalingrad had a drum mag and a PPSh with a working fire selector. Making these things unlockable, especially now that the MP40 has been proven to be slightly better is an obvious bad idea. Again, not realistic, not fun, not fair.
I'm level 32 with the Mosin Nagant and the only difference I can notice is that there's a foot long piece of metal on the front of it now. At the current rate I would need ~2000 kills with the Nagant to max the stat increases at 100%.

If you feel like you're grinding for stats or being forced to play this class or that class, you simply have the wrong attitude. I play this game simply because it is extremely satisfying. Even if there were no stats at all it wouldn't diminish the grin I get every time I put a bullet in some kraut's chest.
I had my drum mags in RO1. I want them in RO2. My only option to get quick access to them is to frequently play as Russian assault, and that's stupid.
Also, if people grind classes, who is gonna use the Russian MGs for example? It's worse than the MG34 (as it should be), who wants to level that up?
What about AT rifles? They're not even on every map, potentially good AT gunners might stick to their rifles or SMGs to grind those up instead of helping their team.

The unlock will have only minimal negative effects on gameplay at best, and cause loads of frustration at worst. There is simply no manner in which it could possibly have a positive impact.
 
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*sigh*

*sigh*

I have created this account expressly for this purpose... I have been lurking for the better part of a few years now, and this thread, petty as it is, has given me enough reason to begin posting as something of a counter-balance to the unlock-hatred that seems to be so prevalent here.

I, for one, Wholeheartedly enjoy and support unlocks. I have very rarely seen them ruin games to the point described in this thread. Even, so called "Arcade" games, such as a certain "Bad Company 2" was not hurt in any great way by unlocks, and most of those were very clearly progressive unlocks as opposed to "side-grades" or whatever ridiculous name has been invented for the perceived intention of RO2's upgrade system.

In order to appreciate the logic of the upgrade system, you need to appreciate the bigger picture of multiplayer gaming in the modern setting. There was a time when giving someone a weapon with a faster fire rate, or a bayonet, meant that they had a clear advantage in an array of situations, But gaming has come a long way from those days, and you nearsighted nitwits need to pay at least a little attention to that; Having a semi-automatic rifle does give you an advantage, for certain, but it does not make you an invincible god, nor does it even come close to invalidating the bolt-action rifle, the SMG, or any of the other classes.

For all your screaming about realism, You seem to be missing something. War is not a fair, level exercise. The entire concept of armed conflict is to out-man, out-produce, out-maneuver, and out-gun your opponents. Very rarely do you (or should you) ever get the privilege of being in an identical stance at an identical height with identical weapons and identical levels of skill, with identical levels of backup and identical levels of uniform-color camouflage.

I enjoy an unlock system. It gives me something to strive for and lends a sense of progress to my exploits. I could care less if my bolt action rifle reloads slightly faster, or has a bayonet; Its not about the advantage, its about the symbolism. A visible homage to your own past exploits, Something that says, "You have come this far," is worth more than any marginal increase/decrease in game balance.

Let me employ some logic to sum it up for all you TL;DR folks out there.

Feel free to quote me on any part of this;
There will never come a day, When Red Orchestra, ever remotely resembles Call of Duty. You will never see a squad of Germans running around with laser-sighted STG-45's with under-slung grenade launchers. Put that fear to rest and stop bickering at each other over which weapon unlock is more or less overpowered or not. Consider that there is more to a game than who has more bullets in their magazine, or who has more recoil. Part of the purpose of these incongruities is to vary the system, and keep things fresh and interesting, and in the vast majority of cases, it has absolutely done that job perfectly well.

You forum regulars like to stroke your e-peens about "being an RO1 vet" and all this jazz, and though I may not have posted at the time, I am among your number; But for all your touting of long-standing Red-Orchestra-Playing-Excellence, Why is it that you're so afraid of someone who has too much free time having a few extra bullets, or reloading a little faster?

Stop obsessing about these things. We both know they're going in whether you like them or not, I just happen to think they're in for the better.
 
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That's a copout. If we're going that route then your stats should reset to 0 whenever you die and respawn.



Arbitrary stat boosts are bad. I don't know what the hell TWI were thinking when they decided that they should just give people who were playing longer significantly better stats.

I'm not sure if I'm going to keep my preorder at this point or not.
Good, cancel it. We don't like your type around these parts anyways.

Seriously, the stat increases are so slight that even at 100% they might make you 10-20% more effective. A good player will be a good player regardless of these arbitrary numbers. I had no issue with shooting people when I was level 0 with my rifle and increasing my stats hasn't helped me in any noticeable way.
 
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Good, cancel it. We don't like your type around these parts anyways.

Seriously, the stat increases are so slight that even at 100% they might make you 10-20% more effective. A good player will be a good player regardless of these arbitrary numbers. I had no issue with shooting people when I was level 0 with my rifle and increasing my stats hasn't helped me in any noticeable way.
10-20% is a lot.
Think about it this way:
1. Put yourselves in the shoes of a noob who just got shot by a skilled guy. The noob would think "well bugger me I'm dead, I should be more careful"
2. Now, imagine the skilled guy also had superior stats and equipment. Now Mr.Noobie would be thinking "That's just retarded, I swear I would've gotten him if he didn't have all those advantages", even if it isn't so. Being on the receiving end of superior stats is frustrating, and having superior stats makes playing the game less satisfying.
 
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I've always had the mindset that if I pay for a game, then I want access to all of the content within the game. If I paid for it, give it to me. I would never buy a sports car in which the dealership told me I have to drive 20k miles before they give me the V8 engine, and instead the 4 cylinder will do me just fine until then.

Doesn't make any sense. I shouldn't have to play a game for hours to unlock better content, even if it's only minor upgrades.
 
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Good, cancel it. We don't like your type around these parts anyways.

Seriously, the stat increases are so slight that even at 100% they might make you 10-20% more effective. A good player will be a good player regardless of these arbitrary numbers. I had no issue with shooting people when I was level 0 with my rifle and increasing my stats hasn't helped me in any noticeable way.

There's a good reason I don't play CoD.

When I try to go online, I get insta-gibbed by a guy with a gun and upgrades that I can't get who calls me a newfag for not being as obsessive as he is about the game.

This is -not- fun.
 
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Unlocks in a game like this is just bad. Period.

  • It threatens to widen the already big gap between experienced players and newcomers.
  • It encourages always aiming to maximize your own score instead of just having fun playing as part of a team. Point farming and so on will become commonplace as these systems attract the kinds of players that are only in it for the scores and not the teamplay fun.
  • Realistic equipment of units goes out the window, and this is unforgivable for a game like this. I really though TWI was aiming a bit higher with RO2 :(
 
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Perhaps instead of "It's not that bad", those in favor of the way it is now could explain why it's a good thing that experienced players get stat bonuses on top of everything else?

Not only have they mastered the level layout and the reflexes needed to play the game, they're going to have access to stat bonuses AND weapon upgrades.

Then here comes Joey Newguy who bought the game on the Steam sale who gets insta-gibbed by a guy with stats and weapons that he can't hope to get without hours of investment and ragequits.

The game has a blisteringly frustrating learning curve already. This only makes things worse.
 
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10-20% is a lot.
Think about it this way:
1. Put yourselves in the shoes of a noob who just got shot by a skilled guy. The noob would think "well bugger me I'm dead, I should be more careful"
2. Now, imagine the skilled guy also had superior stats and equipment. Now Mr.Noobie would be thinking "That's just retarded, I swear I would've gotten him if he didn't have all those advantages", even if it isn't so. Being on the receiving end of superior stats is frustrating, and having superior stats makes playing the game less satisfying.
Yep. #2 says all that needs to be said.
 
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Not only have they mastered the level layout and the reflexes needed to play the game, they're going to have access to stat bonuses AND weapon upgrades.

Then here comes Joey Newguy who bought the game on the Steam sale who gets insta-gibbed by a guy with stats and weapons that he can't hope to get without hours of investment and ragequits.

The game has a blisteringly frustrating learning curve already. This only makes things worse.
Indeed, in fact one could theorize that the game will make itself a hard sold product.
As time goes on and more people get higher stats and better guns it will become increasingly difficult for new players to get into the game and earn points as they have to contend with veterans with all the good stuff.
 
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Progression systems like this aren't really supposed to be "balanced". Hopefully the power of new items will plateau at an early point, that's the best you can hope for.

Progression systems are just the current trend in gaming. They kind of make the fun last a little longer for me, as long as the game play is still good. I did enjoy cod 2 and 4 up until I maxed out everything. That's when the series got super mainstream and really ****y imo. But yeah, the progression system is for the masses mainly.
 
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10% of 70 is only 7.

If you're getting 70 kills in a game does an extra 7 really make a big difference?

That's if you're MAX level with the weapon, class, etc. Which as I said, at the current rate of progression is going to take a very long time, even for an unusually skilled player.

The reality is, most people like to feel like they're making progress towards something, even if that something doesn't matter. Why do you think achievements have become such a big thing for every game to include?

Just because you don't like the idea of a progression system doesn't mean nobody does. Don't project your preferences on to people you've never met under the guise of "protecting" them from what you deem is unfairness in the game.

This isn't an MMO which truly reward players that play more, giving them a substantial advantage over those that don't play as much. Last I checked, those games were doing just fine.
 
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I just want to point out that any complaint against the MP40 is answered with "It's realistic."

You know what else is realistic?

Veteran soldiers getting better equipment as they have proven that they know what they're doing. I'm also pretty sure a veteran soldier would be better at doing soldier things than a raw recruit. They would know how to control their weapon, how to reload it efficiently, how to draw beads on targets better. These things all make sense and quite frankly I think the overall effect will be quite marginal. It's also not like a lot of the upgrades were extremely rare. Almost every picture I've seen of the PPSH has a soldier using a drum magazine.

I'm level 32 with the Mosin Nagant and the only difference I can notice is that there's a foot long piece of metal on the front of it now. At the current rate I would need ~2000 kills with the Nagant to max the stat increases at 100%.

If you feel like you're grinding for stats or being forced to play this class or that class, you simply have the wrong attitude. I play this game simply because it is extremely satisfying. Even if there were no stats at all it wouldn't diminish the grin I get every time I put a bullet in some kraut's chest.



+1

i completely agree
 
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Progression systems like this aren't really supposed to be "balanced". Hopefully the power of new items will plateau at an early point, that's the best you can hope for.

Progression systems are just the current trend in gaming. They kind of make the fun last a little longer for me, as long as the game play is still good. I did enjoy cod 2 and 4 up until I maxed out everything. That's when the series got super mainstream and really ****y imo. But yeah, the progression system is for the masses mainly.

I know I keep harping on TF2, but I'm positively in love with their progression system. It's totally randomized, and you have the opportunity to get what you want at any point while playing. There are also guaranteed milestone unlocks that you can work towards, but you're never punished for ignoring achievements and just having fun. Plus, none of the weapons are true upgrades. All of them have pros and cons, and it's more about how you want to play the game. That is a progression system done right. Vet players have more complex strategies and tactics available to them, but the only real edge they have is their experience.
 
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I know I keep harping on TF2, but I'm positively in love with their progression system. It's totally randomized, and you have the opportunity to get what you want at any point while playing. There are also guaranteed milestone unlocks that you can work towards, but you're never punished for ignoring achievements and just having fun. Plus, none of the weapons are true upgrades. All of them have pros and cons, and it's more about how you want to play the game. That is a progression system done right. Vet players have more complex strategies and tactics available to them, but the only real edge they have is their experience.

While I agree with everything you wrote there, I have this grudging feeling that if TWI offered microtransaction sales for the unlock / stat-bonuses people would raging even more. :rolleyes:
 
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While I agree with everything you wrote there, I have this grudging feeling that if TWI offered microtransaction sales for the unlock / stat-bonuses people would raging even more. :rolleyes:

Which I don't understand, as you can get everything in TF2 without paying a dime. Suddenly, Valve OFFERS you the option to pay to get stuff NOW and people start whining themselves inside out that Valve has sold out. :rolleyes:
 
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In this game just like in call of duty, or in any game with unlocks people are complaining about how they make the game unfair.

Just like in call of duty regardless of what equipment I have I will still outscore/outkill 99.99% of the people playing this game because I'm simply better at FPS games than they are. You will never see me complain about an unlock.
 
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