Radar on RO HOS - Big Error of Tripware

[Fedorov]

About deathmessages for instance normally you would probably tell when you had hit someone, so people would know when someone was shot. And in game its harder to see whether you hit someone, which would be easier in real life. So in that sense its defend-able to call death messages realistic.

With FoV correction, being able to tell now should be much easier than before, just as good as in reality if the animations are done properly, so that excuse no longer applies.

 

[Zetsumei]

Size is not the only difference there is pixellation as well, as the difference in communication. But all of that is not the point of the entire discussion.

The perception of realism is a psychological factor. About things judging about how you see things feel things etc you can't put hard facts. Everybody got eyes and everybody here is able to see. And the discussion is about using a unrealistic system to give a realistic ability.

The only things you can put definite conclusions about are physical things. Like generic runningspeed or the damage that a bullet does.

 

[Fedorov]

Size is not the only difference there is pixellation as well, as the difference in communication. But all of that is not the point of the entire discussion.

Is not the same, but IMO, its enough for an effective removal without real impact in gameplay.

The perception of realism is a psychological factor. About things judging about how you see things feel things etc you can't put hard facts. Everybody got eyes and everybody here is able to see. And the discussion is about using a unrealistic system to give a realistic ability.

The only things you can put definite conclusions about are physical things. Like generic runningspeed or the damage that a bullet does.

you can simulate practical realism pretty good with all those features, but you'll never achieve the same level of visual realism until the screen surrounds you and you see it in 3d

your eyes will still see an interactive 2d movie window of another world which doesn't really look too real anyway, as you can still recognize the polygons, and your entire real field of view have keyboard, walls, room, whatever... removing the hud in an unrealistic game, is not gonna make it more realistic, no matter how you look at it, you'll still see a game.

so why put visual realism over practical realism in case they conflict, if you'll never achieve an acceptable level of visual realism anyway? At least until technology allows it. If you can achieve maximum realism in one field, why sacrifice it for mediocrity in the other?

Doom without hud wont magically make it a realistic game, just as the current RO, is not more realistic without hud either (and I bet you didn't remove the hud in current RO) the soldier just doesn't behave like one in real life, because the information given to him is different.

Its true that less hud helps with immersion and thats why they are making the new RO being able to just show it when its needed, but thats all about it, is not that those indicators are making your game an unreal tournament

 

[Zetsumei]

Unrealistic games can be percieved as more realistic like the case that people find COD more realistic due to things like the fluidity of the animations. Or crysis more realistic due to the visual goodies. For me the effect of having a stable image with pretty much no zooming in and out is more important to me than being able to see things in a 1:1 size. (beside that I don't have a 21" monitor so for me things will look bigger than they would in real-life and i would rather be allowed to slightly adjust it slightly so I can still see things in a 1:1 ratio).

I don't remove the hud items because it would give me a disadvantage of not knowing certain information that people with a hud would have. Which is why I like the idea of the hud on demand system so information can be hidden untill you need it which keeps you immersed better.

 

[FlyXwire]

On TrackIR implementation (as an owner of versions 2, 3, 5), it's great for flight simming, but why do we need it for 1st-person shooter games?

Reasoning is, in flight simming you use it for observation, such as spotting, following, and shooting targets with an aircraft's fixed armament, but in shooter games the "armaments" arern't fixed, and easily rotate with one's point of view (shooter weaponry is akin to aiming an aircraft's turreted/flexible mounts).

I don't see why FPS games couldn't just option "free panning" views, without locking a gun-view to the viewpoint? However, using your personal weapon, or binoculars, or an artillery gun-sight is what FPS game action is all about, so why the need/demand for a "weapons-free" view anyway?

I see why having TrackIR works with flight sims, with hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS), but 1st-person shooter games don't occupy your hands on other control peripherals like these.

I'm not seeing the need for TrackIR in FPS games. (?)

Why not just have a "free-view" keystroke that unlocks your mouse's movement from the weapons-up viewpoint, if there's a need/demand for this instead?

 

[Zetsumei]

On TrackIR implementation (as an owner of versions 2, 3, 5), it's great for flight simming, but why do we need it for 1st-person shooter games?

Reasoning is, in flight simming you use it for observation, such as spotting, following, and shooting targets with an aircraft's fixed armament, but in shooter games the "armaments" arern't fixed, and easily rotate with one's point of view (shooter weaponry is akin to aiming an aircraft's turreted/flexible mounts).

I don't see why FPS games couldn't just option "free panning" views, without locking a gun-view to the viewpoint? However, using your personal weapon, or binoculars, or an artillery gun-sight is what FPS game action is all about, so why the need/demand for a "weapons-free" view anyway?

I see why having TrackIR works with flight sims, with hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS), but 1st-person shooter games don't occupy your hands on other control peripherals like these.

I'm not seeing the need for TrackIR in FPS games. (?)

Why not just have a "free-view" keystroke that unlocks your mouse's movement from the weapons-up viewpoint, if there's a need/demand for this instead?

why not have both. The main thing of trackir for me wouldn't be free panning. But actually the ability to raise your hight. Like looking just a little bit higher over an object. Or lowering your body just a bit.

 

[Fedorov]

Unrealistic games can be percieved as more realistic like the case that people find COD more realistic due to things like the fluidity of the animations. Or crysis more realistic due to the visual goodies. For me the effect of having a stable image with pretty much no zooming in and out is more important to me than being able to see things in a 1:1 size. (beside that I don't have a 21" monitor so for me things will look bigger than they would in real-life and i would rather be allowed to slightly adjust it slightly so I can still see things in a 1:1 ratio).

Perceived more realistic or not, CoD is and will always be object of jokes in this forum, because it lacks any of the "practical realism"

yet, you put visual realism over practical realism as if the practical realism was less important (yes, you called visual realism "realistic realism", your subconsciousness betrayed you, no matter how many times you say that both are equally realistic)

you really think TWI is researching and spending a lot of time in making new realistic features to put them in a "less realistic" setting and take them out in the "more realistic" one? that would make as much sense as adding the pink MGs to the more realistic setting.

I don't remove the hud items because it would give me a disadvantage of not knowing certain information that people with a hud would have.

So you put game advantages over visual realism and visual realism over practical realism?

I'm pretty sure that no matter how bothered you are with the perception indicator, you wont hide it. So, if it is such a big visual bother, you still wouldn't disable it because it would give somebody else an advantage?

What pisses me off is that you want to deprive people of essential stuff just because it doesn't fit in your CoD view on realism, and of course you still want to fight in equal conditions and also play in the "more realistic" mode. All at the same time.

You don't like it?, fine, don't use it. but its gonna be there for a reason and I want it.

Which is why I like the idea of the hud on demand system so information can be hidden untill you need it which keeps you immersed better.

I agree here, thats a nice move by TWI





Lets be honest... when people heard the term "relaxed realism" and that there will be a more realistic mode, everyone associated it with "newbie mode" and "elite mode", and of course everybody wants to be in such "elite mode" because everybody has some ego.

That is why every new announced feature that can help the player, no matter how realistic it actually is, people here just want to dump it into the "newbie mode" version. Just to keep their "elite mode" just as hardcore and basic or more than RO, more unforgiving that real life itself. And actually make those modes a real "newbie mode" and "elite mode" with the changes you guys propose.

I for one prefer to stick to the strict definition, and stay away from the "newbie" or "elite" view, the people currently have on those modes:

1- a more realistic setting: Which includes all that makes a battlefield and experience like it should be (AKA, as TWI announced the game), removing those elements that shouldn't be in a real battle like death messages, GPS map, etc...

2- a less realistic setting: Which includes all that makes a battlefield and experience like it should be, but without removing the gamey elements

I personally have no preference playing one or the other, both would be nice depending on the day. And changing the game much further from that would split the community quite hard.

if you want visual realism yourself over the practical realism, just remove the indicators from your hud in options, other players shouldn't suffer by your caprice.


One more thing: RO is realistic because of its features, and NOT because it has no hud or indicators (because It does has hud and indicators). How do you sell the game to your friends? -Hey man, try this game, it has no indicators!!... oh wait, it does... well, try it anyway, its cool for some reason.

 

[Zetsumei]

I didn't say whether i preferred functional or visual realism as that depends per case. For me the key in realism is giving players a form of higher need of awareness while playing. More focussing on their actual surroundings than meters and systems.

You blame me for supposedly preferring visual realism, because i expect there to be more visual realism in the realistic realism mode. You expect the same, let me quote you.

Everything that is not part of real life (DMs, GPS, Cap Bar, etc...), should be in relaxed realism.

Deathmessages, GPS, Cap bar etc are all features belonging to functional realism. Removing them is going closer to visual realism. So you expect yourself that there will be more visual realism in the realistic realism setting...

For a lot of things where you prefer visual realism I wouldn't mind the functional realism. Like suppression for instance. I just don't like functional realism in systems that tell the player additional information about the whereabouts of enemy soldiers.

Indeed I will not remove the perhipheral view, because removing it would put me at a disadvantage. Which is the exact reason for a relaxed realism mode and realistic realism mode. Not having some functional realistic features would put you at a disadvantage over someone having it. But for newer players having additional features meters, and bells and whistles doesn't necessarily make things easier either.

If there wouldn't be any advantage or disadvantage there wouldn't be a need for server settings as people could just change the setting on their own computer and everything would remain fair.

 

[FlyXwire]

why not have both. The main thing of trackir for me wouldn't be free panning. But actually the ability to raise your hight. Like looking just a little bit higher over an object. Or lowering your body just a bit.

That all could be achieved via additional keystrokes (using the lft. hand), like leaning, or with an additional mouse button input to "raise", "dip", or "lean". Still, it's all just "free-viewing" in essence w/o the rigidty of looking over a weapon, and a simple free-view/weapons-off keystroke could accomplish this w/o the need for players to buy additional hardware to accomplish it.

As I see it, elegance of controls should always be one of the first goals of game design, so having more options and utility built into the core controls should always be the first goal, not layering on additional peripherals and cost to the player to take advantage of these benefits.

As a TrackIR user (for flight sims), I get tired of holding my head aligned for "correct" in-game viewing, although I consider this pretty essential to my performance in combat flight sims these days, but for FPS games, I find not having to use TrackIR as almost liberating, and I get a lot less fatigued playing hour after hour in the shooters, as opposed to when using TrackIR for flight simming.

It really is a consideration of design elegance and the ergonomics of use.

 

[Fedorov]

Deathmessages, GPS, Cap bar etc are all features belonging to functional realism. Removing them is going closer to visual realism. So you expect yourself that there will be more visual realism in the realistic realism setting...

...GPS, DM, Cap Bar (or at least enemy presence in it)... functional? yes, but "realism"?, how do you explain that I get notified for the kills I make or other people make even though I couldn't possible know it in RL? There is absolutely no base in RL for those, so I think those are the kind of features that would differ from relaxed realism to total realism.

the fact that you get two choices in those, that need you mentioned, is to encourage server admins to use that set of pre-made settings which removes those litte elements, as its very hard to find servers with DM off and that kind of stuff right now (and I know lots of people who loves those settings), so there would be a big base of servers configured in such a way.

 

[Zetsumei]

...GPS, DM, Cap Bar (or at least enemy presence in it)... functional? yes, but "realism"?, how do you explain that I get notified for the kills I make or other people make even though I couldn't possible know it in RL? There is absolutely no base in RL for those, so I think those are the kind of features that would differ from relaxed realism to total realism.

the fact that you get two choices in those, that need you mentioned, is to encourage server admins to use that set of pre-made settings which removes those litte elements, as its very hard to find servers with DM off and that kind of stuff right now (and I know lots of people who loves those settings), so there would be a big base of servers configured in such a way.

You can already disable death messages on a personal level on every server. The reason for having it done server wise is to equal the playing field. Packaging things up in a done deal package is advantageous to make the server selection more consistent.

I like playing without deathmessages (as long as you can't deduct that you killed someone by pressing the scoreboard button).

And there are bases for realism on those features Inamed them in an earlier post, I do not agree to them. But they cannot be debunked either.

 

[[TW]Ramm-Jaeger]

Ok I think I gave up on reading all the posts after about page 6, but there are a few misconceptions that I think are easy to clear up:

1) Death messages. Currently we have 3 death message settings, normal, delayed, and off. We'll probably add a couple more before release such as your own kills only, etc. Additionally, death messages DO NOT display the distance for a person killing you or someone else. Death messages ONLY display distance for your own personal kills. And having been playing with them like this for almost 2 years now, I can report that it has absolutely NO impact on gameplay. It is just fun to know how far away someone was when you killed them.

2) Map/MiniMap - The mini map/overhead map does not just show you enemy players, even if you can see them. It only shows you friendly players, and where your squad mates/squad leader are. And yes its not 100% realistic, but it makes teamplay a lot easier if you are playing with pubbers or people you don't know.

3) Peripheral indicators - some people have mentioned taking issue with peripheral indicators being in the middle of their screen. The peripheral indicators are NEVER in the middle of your screen, but rather are only ever on the very edge. They represent the view outside the edges or your screen, which represents the 50% of your normal real world FOV that the computer screen doesn't render. They are only there to show you that there is some sort of threat outside what the screen could render, but what you could see in real life. They are pretty subtle, and scale down with distance, so if a threat is far away, then the icon on the edge of your screen is tiny. They are so subtle in fact, that most people miss them when they first play the game. Some even miss them after you point them out. You basically have to kind of train yourself to pay attention to them.

4) Game Modes (Realism and Relaxed Realism) - There are actually going to be 3 server modes. Relaxed Realism, Realism, and Custom. Relaxed realism will have everything turned on, full death messages, minimap, etc and be what most people coming from games like COD or Battlefield are likely to play. Realism is the mode that I would play, and will have delayed death messages, probably no minimap, and have some of the hud helps and hints turned off. It will probably retain peripheral action indicators though, and any feature that actually makes the game more realistic (or in Zetsumei's terms, more "functionally realistic"). Finally there will be Custom mode. Custom mode will be whatever the server admin wants. If the server admin wants to go insano crazy "visual realism" or hardcore realism all the way up to relaxed realism they'll be able to turn off/on pretty much anything we have an option for. So gamers can either get the out of the box vanilla Realism or Relaxed Realism gameplay, or the customized gameplay that a server admin wants. And they should be able to easily determine what setup a server is running in the server browser.

Ok, now get back to beating each other up over who has the "right" view on what realism is

 

[Mormegil]

I reject your reality, and substitute my own...

But seriously, thanks for the clarification and info.



note: that quote is from Adam Savage of Myth Busters

 

[Apos]

Too bad that split community into small ones. I'm afraid newcomers (CoD, BF, casual players) chose relaxed realism over normal RO gametype and there would be way more relaxed realism servers than normal servers. Also I'm pretty sure, that in such leagues like clanbase, ESL etc 90% of the clans would prefer to play relaxed realism only.

 

[Fedorov]

Ok I think I gave up on reading all the posts after about page 6, but there are a few misconceptions that I think are easy to clear up:

1) Death messages. Currently we have 3 death message settings, normal, delayed, and off. We'll probably add a couple more before release such as your own kills only, etc. Additionally, death messages DO NOT display the distance for a person killing you or someone else. Death messages ONLY display distance for your own personal kills. And having been playing with them like this for almost 2 years now, I can report that it has absolutely NO impact on gameplay. It is just fun to know how far away someone was when you killed them.

2) Map/MiniMap - The mini map/overhead map does not just show you enemy players, even if you can see them. It only shows you friendly players, and where your squad mates/squad leader are. And yes its not 100% realistic, but it makes teamplay a lot easier if you are playing with pubbers or people you don't know.

3) Peripheral indicators - some people have mentioned taking issue with peripheral indicators being in the middle of their screen. The peripheral indicators are NEVER in the middle of your screen, but rather are only ever on the very edge. They represent the view outside the edges or your screen, which represents the 50% of your normal real world FOV that the computer screen doesn't render. They are only there to show you that there is some sort of threat outside what the screen could render, but what you could see in real life. They are pretty subtle, and scale down with distance, so if a threat is far away, then the icon on the edge of your screen is tiny. They are so subtle in fact, that most people miss them when they first play the game. Some even miss them after you point them out. You basically have to kind of train yourself to pay attention to them.

4) Game Modes (Realism and Relaxed Realism) - There are actually going to be 3 server modes. Relaxed Realism, Realism, and Custom. Relaxed realism will have everything turned on, full death messages, minimap, etc and be what most people coming from games like COD or Battlefield are likely to play. Realism is the mode that I would play, and will have delayed death messages, probably no minimap, and have some of the hud helps and hints turned off. It will probably retain peripheral action indicators though, and any feature that actually makes the game more realistic (or in Zetsumei's terms, more "functionally realistic"). Finally there will be Custom mode. Custom mode will be whatever the server admin wants. If the server admin wants to go insano crazy "visual realism" or hardcore realism all the way up to relaxed realism they'll be able to turn off/on pretty much anything we have an option for. So gamers can either get the out of the box vanilla Realism or Relaxed Realism gameplay, or the customized gameplay that a server admin wants. And they should be able to easily determine what setup a server is running in the server browser.

Ok, now get back to beating each other up over who has the "right" view on what realism is

This is server madness!

At least there is something for everybody now, but I wonder if one will ever get the exact setting they'd like (I bet they wont unless they buy their own server and have the luck of being able to fill it, its either that, or a really awesome single player) Still, I'm ok with that, thanks Ramm, and sorry for being such pains in the ***.

What I wonder now is how Ralfst3r is gonna fit all this in the RO:HoS fact thread =P

 

[Ralfst3r]

This is server madness!

At least there is something for everybody now, but I wonder if one will ever get the exact setting they'd like (I bet they wont unless they buy their own server and have the luck of being able to fill it, its either that, or a really awesome single player) Still, I'm ok with that, thanks Ramm, and sorry for being such pains in the ***.

What I wonder now is how Ralfst3r is gonna fit all this in the RO:HoS fact thread =P

I already had info on all of this, except the mini-map. I updated the stuff I had with this fresh info

 

[Devil_Inside]

Yes, I'm really afraid that every admin will has his own vision of realism, so you won't find a single server with the default settings (the way the game was intended to be played by TWI)

 

[Fedorov]

Yes, I'm really afraid that every admin will has his own vision of realism, so you won't find a single server with the default settings (the way the game was intended to be played by TWI)

I'm sure there can be lots of default servers or custom servers that are closer to your liking, just put those in favorites and problem solved. I think that thanks to this, there'll be more popuated servers instead of every player trying to get in the same 2 50 player ones, yes, I'm looking at you TWB (which are default btw)

 

[Zetsumei]

Ramm as you know I think there is no right view upon realism . There as just different kind of flows around with different preferences for people.I have my own preferences, as does anyone else.

I'm really happy that a delayed death messages mode is in the game though , now lets hope for a delayed scoreboard to accompany it .

And my preference there lies with visual realism on some settings and functional realism on others. (for instance I'm a big fan of suppression systems). The key things I'm extremely afraid of is systems telling enemy soldier and progression information.

And Apos clan site adoption depends heavily. As there will be no reduced damage mode in relaxed realism, it could be quite likely that a lot of competitive scenes prefer to use a system that tells less information. And even when the pool of relaxed realism gets bigger as we all expect. That's only a good sign for the community as a whole, as some people will transfer to different realism modes later on. And as a clan having a bigger community as a whole wouldn't stop you from recruiting relaxed realism players to play realistic realism or visa versa.

Yes, I'm really afraid that every admin will has his own vision of realism, so you won't find a single server with the default settings (the way the game was intended to be played by TWI)

As long as there are filters to filter servers for either relaxed, realistic and custom. You won't see a lack of non custom servers, as a lot of people will filter on the game type they prefer (aka a standard relaxed and realistic mode servers will be easier to fill up). Custom servers will likely create individual communities around those servers itself. Whereas clans might focus a bit more on setting a server up to increase competitiveness, and realism units to their personal flavours of realism.

 

[Flogger23m]

Too bad that split community into small ones. I'm afraid newcomers (CoD, BF, casual players) chose relaxed realism over normal RO gametype and there would be way more relaxed realism servers than normal servers. Also I'm pretty sure, that in such leagues like clanbase, ESL etc 90% of the clans would prefer to play relaxed realism only.

Pretty much what will happen.

Finding a server with RO OST like setitngs (custom) will be nearly impossible.

I just like jump into a quick game, not spend hours setting up my game type filter, looking for a server that hosts a game with my settings, waiting for people to join it, ect.

If I wanted to do that, I'd load up ArmA.

And when those servers are empty, I might as well go play CoD 11.5 Modern WWIII




Also, I'd consider making death messages have the option to not display the range of your kill. IMO, too much info.