The "anything" thread

[nd2spd]

post

I agree 100%, well written.

 

[Fishsticks]

I'd really hate to live under constant fear like you seem to do.

No fear here my friend though there is an old saying my father taught me.... 'Better safe than sorry'

Also, I fail to see how a firearm would make you safer. I mean, it's not like many criminals are out there with the intent to kill random people on the streets, not even in America.

lol..Not sure if serious???? Where are you from again?...ah Austria...where there is no crime, no wannabe "GANGSTAS" and the criminals don't carry illegal guns.

Most people commit hold ups to get some money. Now if the general public isn't armed, the victim loses some valuables, perhaps a little pride (I wouldn't) and has to go through a bit of a hassle with the police, banks, credit card companies etc. All in all, a loss of time and money that's quite easily recuperated.

Wow... I guess you enjoy being a victim don't you. In america gangsta thugs will beat you, stab you, or shoot you without remorse and THEN take your wallet. I guess you would be ok with taking your beating though seeing how much you like being a victim.... or perhaps being stabbed or shot to death would also suffice

But if people are armed, there's a bigger risk for the robber than the punishment for breaking the law. Thus, not only is the robber more jumpy and nervous, he's also more likely to take rash actions like preventitavely wounding/killing you, before you could even reach for your gun. Not to mention he might misinterpret your actions and THINKS you reach for a gun instead of your wallet and "pops a cap in yo ***" just to protect his own life. (Which incidentally is a situation that makes you alot more likely to get shot by the police accidentally).

Also, IIRC, most gun related deaths in America and almost everywhere else happen in families, be them accidents or murders.

So, by my logic, owning a gun makes you and your loved ones actually quite a lot less safe. Even if you feel safer for carrying one..

I don't even know how to respond to your liberal mindset. There really is no point in responding as you come from a completely opposite upbringing and culture. I do recognize (once again) that you are ok with being a victim though.

I will die fighting to protect myself and children before being victimized.

But then you might call me a hippy, because I generally deem a human life (even of a criminal "low life") to be worth more than all the things I own. I'm not saying that such persons should go unpunished, but they shouldn't die.

Of course I could imagine resorting to violence if other people (their lives, that is, NOT their posessions) are in danger, but never with the intent to kill.

So if your home was invaded by a thug who held you at gun point and proceeded to rape your daughter in front of you would do what exactly to solve the issue at hand?...perhaps politely talk him out of it?? maybe stand ideally by and hope the police show up soon??..... or would you defend your family and shoot him dead beforehand as you are awakened to the sound of your front door being kicked in.

A hypothetical situation?? The sad fact is these things occur almost daily in the good ol' USA. You have no choice of firearms for personal defense where you live. I do have a choice though and I choose the greatest defense available against the filth of the earth.

 

[Moyako]

I don't even know how to respond to your liberal mindset.

I'll never understand why U.S. people always use the term "liberal" as something bad.

 

[Fishsticks]

I'll never understand why U.S. people always use the term "liberal" as something bad.

We have liberals here in the U.S. They're almost always the victims though. They usually coddle the criminals that attack them or just blame themselves for being attacked. It's quite sickening actually.

 

[Murphy]

What's sickening is the pathetic level on which political discourse takes place. Good enough to polarize the dumb masses enough to keep the two party system afloat, I suppose. *shrug*

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

No fear here my friend though there is an old saying my father taught me.... 'Better safe than sorry'

Well, why would anyone need protection against something he isn't afraid of? It is fear. You might not like it or conciously feel it, but still, it's primal fear that makes you do this.
I for one always fasten my seatbelt when I drive my car, because I am afraid of the consequences of a car crash. No shame in that. Fear is nothing to be ashamed of, it's the thing that keeps us alive. But it is important to know your fears so they don't rule you and make you do irrational things.

lol..Not sure if serious???? Where are you from again?...ah Austria...where there is no crime, no wannabe "GANGSTAS" and the criminals don't carry illegal guns.

We do have crime in austria, and we do have street crime. But due to people not being armed, robbers tend not to be that well armed, and they usually do not resort to violence. In fact, most robberies are of the "run past and grab the bag" kind or pickpocketings, so there's no need to be afraid of them hurting you generally. Of course there are exceptions, but there always are.

Wow... I guess you enjoy being a victim don't you. In america gangsta thugs will beat you, stab you, or shoot you without remorse and THEN take your wallet. I guess you would be ok with taking your beating though seeing how much you like being a victim.... or perhaps being stabbed or shot to death would also suffice

Now that came unexpected, and is kind of flawed. I am no victim, and have never been one, nor will any robber make me one. But, due to my philosophy I regard most criminals as victims of circumstances (allthough they can be self inflicted) that have put them in a situation wher crime is a viable action to take.
Being in social work and having had contact with criminals of various degress, I have not encountered a single one who actively chose being a criminal as a career by rational choice. ( I think those people rather work in the financial sector than holding up people. nets them much more omoney with less risk in less time)
Also, I do believe that rehabilitation is far more effective than punishment, and you cannot rehabilitate dead people.

Also, it kind of does prove my point that in a culture where people tend to be armed and thus a direct thread to the live of a robber (who, let's face it, must be desperate enough to risk his life for a little change), robbers preventativley hurt you.

I don't even know how to respond to your liberal mindset. There really is no point in responding as you come from a completely opposite upbringing and culture. I do recognize (once again) that you are ok with being a victim though.

I will die fighting to protect myself and children before being victimized.

Again "victim" is the main word. Again, you are afraid of something, and that is losing control. So, I deduct from that that it isn't actually about safety, but about empowerment. You need a gun to feel empowered. That's okay with me. I for one feel powerful enough without one.
And about the "die fighting" thing. Yeah, sounds heroic. But two things: firstly most people tend not to be heroic when the **** really hits the fan because fear takes over, and secondly dying while trying to achive something is usually quite ineffective, because as soon as you're dead, the ones you tried to protect are on their own. I'd rather prefer solutions where everyone involved walks away unharmed, as opposed to one or more people being seariously hurt or dead. especially if it's over petty things like the cash you carry with you.

Also, if you fear being victimized, a gun won't help you. You're still a victim of a robbery, even if you shot the perp dead and kept all your belongings. the only difference is that one person is dead, and that death is on your concious. If it weren't, you'd be a cold blooded sociopath and a real danger to other people.
I think taht psychologically, it's easier to get over losing some belongings than to get over having killed another person.

So if your home was invaded by a thug who held you at gun point and proceeded to rape your daughter in front of you would do what exactly to solve the issue at hand?...perhaps politely talk him out of it?? maybe stand ideally by and hope the police show up soon??..... or would you defend your family and shoot him dead beforehand as you are awakened to the sound of your front door being kicked in.

Now, I really like to know how many home invasions with the intent to rape somebody while EVERYBODY ELSE IS AT HOME really take place. Again, it's something you're afraid of, and that's okay. BUt I doubt it's a likely scenario. Honestly, your daughter is more likely to get raped by you, close relatives or friends (not personally, it's just that sexual abuse is statistically much more prevalent than rape bewteen strangers). Secondly, other rapes occur outside, in dark, secluded areas on victims who are alone, and NOT in homes.
Also, as long as there's a single assaulter, he cannot hold you at gunpoint and rape someone at the same time.

Also, "home invaders", or rather, people who break in tend to be more intelligent here than overseas, it seems. They usually scout an area and break in, only armed with the tools to bypass the doors, when noone's at home. If they do surprise somebody who's still home, they usually bolt, because a tried break in is much less of a hassle to manage than a robbery with assault or murder.

A hypothetical situation?? The sad fact is these things occur almost daily in the good ol' USA. You have no choice of firearms for personal defense where you live. I do have a choice though and I choose the greatest defense available against the filth of the earth.

Again, I'd like to see actual statisitics. Usually the "happens every day" rethoric is used on gullible people to push politics.
And you do always have choices. For one, you could use proper building materials instead of plywood, so the entry to your home wasn't as easy. Here in Austria, most robbers tend to bugger off when they need more than
5 minutes to break in, because the longer they try, the more likely they are to get caught red handed.
So sturdy walls and doors would make you a lot more safe than a gun that could accidentally kill someone you love.

And as a disclaimer: I am not against guns or personal ownership of guns. I do get that the feeling of empowerement is great and that shooting a gun is fun.
What I do not like is people having guns who need them as a psychological crutch not to succumb to fear, because it's a bad crutch, and when the fear takes over, people get killed.

 

[Oldih]

So if your home was invaded by a thug who held you at gun point and proceeded to rape your daughter in front of you would do what exactly to solve the issue at hand?...perhaps politely talk him out of it?? maybe stand ideally by and hope the police show up soon??..... or would you defend your family and shoot him dead beforehand as you are awakened to the sound of your front door being kicked in.

Here you would be far more likely to get beaten up by drunken family member or cousin than face good old DYNAMIC ENTRY GANGSTA STYLE *****ES- to begin with. Of course different countries, different cultures, different history with law, ownership, control, education level etc etc etc etc etc and tons of other things which may or may not influence things around it, but it really works both ways.

Someone should suggest Godwin's Law 2.0, just replace certain word with liberals and it'll do the same thing in practice.

[QUOTE='[-project.rattus-]Again, I'd like to see actual statisitics. Usually the "happens every day" rethoric is used on gullible people to push politics.[/QUOTE]

As much as it leaves the thing open and admittedly is a cop-out, I would not find it entirely impossible that it might happen everyday somewhere given how large country USA is with its population, but the scale and such is up to interpretation and arguably can be rather blank and uninformative when it comes to statistics aside from estimations.

Of course statistics can also be pretty misleading in some cases. Case in point is the fairly old claim Finland has 3rd most guns in the world. Not only the original study\claim added estimation of illegal firearms to the mix (and estimation is just that, estimation), but it also failed to note that in order to own a firearm here (this actually applies to pepper sprays as well) it needs a license, and if you own say, shotgun, pistol, and a rifle? Three licenses, and ever since certain gun hysteria wave anyone who says buying firearm here is easy has never tried to acquire one - and even before that it was pretty pedantic. In other words every firearm that is legal has to be registered and go through plethora of paperwork and even more so these days, while say in France - unless something has recently changed - legally a single-barreled shotgun is not a license\permit based firearm but a farmhouse tool, and thus doesn't need a license nor shows up anywhere in statistics. Do the math.

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

As much as it leaves the thing open and admittedly is a cop-out, I would not find it entirely impossible that it might happen everyday somewhere given how large country USA is with its population, but the scale and such is up to interpretation and arguably can be rather blank and uninformative when it comes to statistics aside from estimations.

hat was actually my point. It might happen almost everyday ONCE in the whole of the USA... but then, it would be about as likely to happen to you as winning the lottery.

 

[kablooie!]

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

[QUOTE='[-project.rattus-] What I do not like is people having guns who need them as a psychological crutch not to succumb to fear, because it's a bad crutch, and when the fear takes over, people get killed.[/QUOTE]

That is part of the problem with your opinion, in that thinking that the majority of people or their main reason for owning a gun is because of the above.

That is very evident in your reaction to Fishsticks post.

 

[Fishsticks]

We do have crime in austria, and we do have street crime. But due to people not being armed, robbers tend not to be that well armed, and they usually do not resort to violence. In fact, most robberies are of the "run past and grab the bag" kind or pickpocketings, so there's no need to be afraid of them hurting you generally. Of course there are exceptions, but there always are.

I really wish I could say the same for the United States. That's it...I'm moving to Austria.

I regard most criminals as victims of circumstances (allthough they can be self inflicted) that have put them in a situation where crime is a viable action to take..

Extremely flawed statement. Everyone in this world has a choice...do what is morally right or do what is morally wrong. Some of our greatest leaders come from checkered environments and they didn't resort to criminal behavior. Some criminals are born ... not made I'm afraid.

Being in social work and having had contact with criminals of various degress, I have not encountered a single one who actively chose being a criminal as a career by rational choice. ( I think those people rather work in the financial sector than holding up people. nets them much more omoney with less risk in less time)
Also, I do believe that rehabilitation is far more effective than punishment, and you cannot rehabilitate dead people.

Simply stated...no more violent criminals = no more violent crime. I say do away with them all. Obviously prison does not rehabilitate. It's quicker and cheaper to just do away with them. Do not coddle them do not make excuses for them. You can not expect to understand and correct the thought processes of a savage animal can you?? Perhaps we could just ship them all to some 3rd world country (where they belong to begin with) and let them have at each other. No more chances of genetic dispositions of criminal behavior in the gene pool for those of us living in civilized society.

Again "victim" is the main word. Again, you are afraid of something, and that is losing control. So, I deduct from that that it isn't actually about safety, but about empowerment. You need a gun to feel empowered. That's okay with me. I for one feel powerful enough without one.

As you should...your criminals don't carry illegal firearms.

Also, if you fear being victimized, a gun won't help you. You're still a victim of a robbery, even if you shot the perp dead and kept all your belongings. the only difference is that one person is dead, and that death is on your concious. If it weren't, you'd be a cold blooded sociopath and a real danger to other people.

If I can possibly go home at night and kiss my children goodnight then I will make every effort possible to do just that. If that requires me make a decision after being placed in a position where I need to defend myself. Then I will do so with deadly force. Self-defense and murder are 2 completely different mindsets.

P.S. You wouldn't make a very good soldier.

Now, I really like to know how many home invasions with the intent to rape somebody while EVERYBODY ELSE IS AT HOME really take place. Again, it's something you're afraid of, and that's okay. BUt I doubt it's a likely scenario.

Home invasions occur in the United States everyday. Multiple rapes and violent attacks occur everyday...Numerous murders ....everyday. This country is filled with violent criminals and thugs. Unless you live an extremely rural area or a secured, gated, and guarded community there is a much greater chance of those crimes taking place in or around your immediate space. If you live blindly to the facts then you only open yourself up for distaster. Like I said before..... better safe that sorry.

Again, I'd like to see actual statisitics. Usually the "happens every day" rethoric is used on gullible people to push politics.

2011 United States Crime Rates:

14,612 murders. 83,425 rapes. 354,969 robberies. 751,131 aggrevated assaults. 2,188,005 burglaries. 1,203,564 violent crimes.

Let those numbers sink in for a moment......

365 days in a year....remember that as well.


http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

What I do not like is people having guns who need them as a psychological crutch not to succumb to fear, because it's a bad crutch, and when the fear takes over, people get killed.

In any flight or fight situation there is always fear...Fear is what keeps you sharp and heightens your senses. Without fear you may not survive when faced with danger. When I carry a firearm for my personal protection it is not "out of fear" that I am doing so. It is only to place me one step ahead of the criminal element IF needed.

 

[doomis]

Jesus rattus, man up and be a better soldier already.

Cause killing your "own" people makes you a savage animal, but go on a rampage in some other country and come back a hero.

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

That is part of the problem with your opinion, in that thinking that the majority of people or their main reason for owning a gun is because of the above.

That is very evident in your reaction to Fishsticks post.

You misunderstood me there. I don't have anything against gun ownership, be it for sport, hunting or even collecting. I just highly doubt it's an appropriate tool to make an environment safer.
Also, I think concealed carry permits are actually A (not THE) reason that helps escalate violent crime instead of reducing it.

I really wish I could say the same for the United States. That's it...I'm moving to Austria.

You'd be welcome here.

Extremely flawed statement. Everyone in this world has a choice...do what is morally right or do what is morally wrong. Some of our greatest leaders come from checkered environments and they didn't resort to criminal behavior. Some criminals are born ... not made I'm afraid.

I agree that everone has a choice, and resorting to criminal actions is a result of such a choice. But IMHO and generelly speaking, crime is not a problem, but a symptom of other societal problems.
Also I do strongly believe that everyone is born the same. everyone has the seed in him or her to be both "good" or "evil" (actually I strongly oppose this simplistic dualistic view, but for sake of the argument, I'll let it stand here). But not everyone is brought up and grows up te same.

Simply stated...no more violent criminals = no more violent crime. I say do away with them all. Obviously prison does not rehabilitate. It's quicker and cheaper to just do away with them. Do not coddle them do not make excuses for them. You can not expect to understand and correct the thought processes of a savage animal can you?? Perhaps we could just ship them all to some 3rd world country (where they belong to begin with) and let them have at each other. No more chances of genetic dispositions of criminal behavior in the gene pool for those of us living in civilized society.

As said before, crime is a symptom, not the problem. And doing away with the symptom does not cure the illness. A problem with crime is that while the symptom is a fairly general one, the underlying problems can be quite diverse, making it harder to solve them.
And that prisons do not rehabilitate is true, but IMHO that doesn't say anything about criminals, but it does say a lot about prisons and how they simply do not work as intended. they fail as a punishment, as a deterrent and as rehab. And killing them being quicker and cheaper is wrong on so many levels: 1) I personally deem an individual life worth more than anything material. 2) If carried out as death sentences, it's simply not true: a death row inmate costs more than an inmate sentenced for life IIRC and 3) if the sentence would be carried out straight away with a bullet for petty crime, then that would be quite a dystopian turn for the land of the free.

As you should...your criminals don't carry illegal firearms.

I still would if criminals had them.

If I can possibly go home at night and kiss my children goodnight then I will make every effort possible to do just that. If that requires me make a decision after being placed in a position where I need to defend myself. Then I will do so with deadly force. Self-defense and murder are 2 completely different mindsets.

Well, actually, they're not that far apart. PTSD shows that many soldiers for example actually do struggle to cope with having had to kill people, even in self-defense situations. Might not be for everyone, but unless you experienced it yourself, you won't know beforehand.

P.S. You wouldn't make a very good soldier.

I take that as a compliment. We have a drafting system here and I willfully refused to take up arms and chose doing social services instead, even though that took longer.

Home invasions occur in the United States everyday. Multiple rapes and violent attacks occur everyday...Numerous murders ....everyday. This country is filled with violent criminals and thugs. Unless you live an extremely rural area or a secured, gated, and guarded community there is a much greater chance of those crimes taking place in or around your immediate space. If you live blindly to the facts then you only open yourself up for distaster. Like I said before..... better safe that sorry.

There's a difference being blind to problems and not being part of one. As I said before, I think violent crime is actually a symptom. By arming myself with the intent to kill - even in defense - I'd take part in escalating the violence.
Also, it's actually not in the interest of most perps, unless they're lunatics or psychopaths on a killing spree, to harm or kill people. Due to the prevalence of gun owners, it might be a neccessity for them, but it's not in their interest. Thus I, as I don't my value property that much, I strongly believe that I would get out of such a situation relatively unharmed.
If I happened to come across one of the fomrer two, well, that'd be bad luck. But then, chances are that I might not have been able to pull my own gun in time.

2011 United States Crime Rates:

14,612 murders. 83,425 rapes. 354,969 robberies. 751,131 aggrevated assaults. 2,188,005 burglaries. 1,203,564 violent crimes.

Let those numbers sink in for a moment......

365 days in a year....remember that as well.


http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Impressive numbers. But not actually that meaningful. Are those crimes reported crimes, or court verdicts? The former would be much higher, because it'd include the cases that were ruled as acquittals, for example.

Also, as crime is quite a local problem, I think that most of those crimes were committed within poor areas from residents of those poor areas. So if you don't live in a "ghetto" the number of crimes possibly affecting you would be much lower.

And now to the math:
You have 311.6 million inhabitants and listed 4,595,706 crimes per annum. So about 1.4 percent of the population commit crimes/are victims (if one crime is done by one person to one single person, so the math's simplified)
In Austria, we are 8.4 million inhabitants and 35.541 verdicts. As the clear up rate is about 45%, that's about 78.780 crimes in 2012. Same calculation: 0.4 percent of the population are criminals/victims.
While we do not quite have scandinavian standards, it does kind of show that a punitive/violence based approach does not make you safer, you're more likely to get involved in a crime.

In any flight or fight situation there is always fear...Fear is what keeps you sharp and heightens your senses. Without fear you may not survive when faced with danger. When I carry a firearm for my personal protection it is not "out of fear" that I am doing so. It is only to place me one step ahead of the criminal element IF needed.

And you need to be one step ahead because you fear getting victimzed. Sorry, it's still out of fear you need to protect yourself. But again, that's not outrightly bad, it just should be known.

 

[Fishsticks]

And you need to be one step ahead because you fear getting victimzed. Sorry, it's still out of fear you need to protect yourself. But again, that's not outrightly bad, it just should be known.

Ok Austria sounds better about right now...no fears, extremely low crime rates, scenic countryside... and most importantly... beautiful women !

 

[The Masta]

Tl;dr

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

You misunderstood me there. I don't have anything against gun ownership, be it for sport, hunting or even collecting. I just highly doubt it's an appropriate tool to make an environment safer.
Also, I think concealed carry permits are actually A (not THE) reason that helps escalate violent crime instead of reducing it.

Curious how you think a concealed carry permit would escalate violent crime...

Because to me, that is similar in thinking that criminals/nutjobs/murderers etc will look at a 'Gun Free Zone' around a school and say to themselves... "I better not kill anyone in there, I might get in trouble..."

 

[Shadrach]

Curious how you think a concealed carry permit would escalate violent crime...

He just did Moe...

But if people are armed, there's a bigger risk for the robber than the punishment for breaking the law. Thus, not only is the robber more jumpy and nervous, he's also more likely to take rash actions like preventitavely wounding/killing you, before you could even reach for your gun.

It is well known that an increase in availability of firearms among the population naturally leads to criminals starting to use them. This is also for instance one reason why cops in my country do not wear them, and also for instance in the UK.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

He just did Moe...



It is well known that an increase in availability of firearms among the population naturally leads to criminals starting to use them. This is also for instance one reason why cops in my country do not wear them, and also for instance in the UK.

Disagree.

If a robber might think someone is armed, they would be less likely do do the deed.

Also, where do you get this well known study? Does it involve the criminals legally obtaining them to use them illegally? Thats like saying allowing vehicles on the road leads to auto accidents...it is such a wide blanket statement you really can't draw any conclusion on it.

 

[Fishsticks]

It is well known that an increase in availability of firearms among the population naturally leads to criminals starting to use them. This is also for instance one reason why cops in my country do not wear them, and also for instance in the UK.

Thats incorrect. Legal gun ownership does in no way influence violent crime. Studies have been conducted in the US showing "gun free zones" actually have MORE violent crimes. Legal gun owners are what helps to DETER the criminal element. If every law abiding citizen was packing heat then a criminal would be less likely to try and rob, rape, and murder them. The legal gun owners are 99% of the time law abiding citizens that keep their firearms registered in their home or on their person concealed. Without armed citizens we are completely open to the criminal element not to mention the possible instituition of a tyrannical government .

Violent crime is almost ALWAYS carried out by criminals with illegal firearms whom are illegally carrying them in public. The United States has hundreds of thousands of illegal firearms already on its streets. Criminals aren't going to just going to "give up dey gats" thus why our police force will ALWAYS carry as well.

I'm sure you are aware that US citizens have a little something called the Second Amendment to our Constitution. Legal firearm ownership is part of our national freedom and heritage. It always will be. If any changes are made to the 2nd you would see a revolution on this soil the likes of which have not been witnessed in the past 200 years.

You do not and will not ever have such freedoms in Europe.

Good luck defending yourself and family from any foreign invader... or when your countries own 3rd world immigrants and thugs start rioting in the streets (which actually the UK got a taste of not so long ago).

I guess the butter knife in your kitchen drawer will suffice for your defense.

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

Curious how you think a concealed carry permit would escalate violent crime...

Because to me, that is similar in thinking that criminals/nutjobs/murderers etc will look at a 'Gun Free Zone' around a school and say to themselves... "I better not kill anyone in there, I might get in trouble..."

Moe, you fail to see my point: Most criminals do NOT intend to kill, they intend to gain goods/money etc. illegally. Killing someone to get things they own is merely a preventative measure they take not to get killed in the process.
If that mechanism wasn't real, then there would be no need to carry a gun concealed. It would be enough to show you own a gun. Carrying concealed is there so you're not taregeted straight away as a threat to people who commit crimes. But that leads to people being generally percieved as one, as everyone might carry concealed, which leads to an escalation of violence, as criminals themselves are rather be "safe than sorry"...

And for the few (even if america, else that wouldn't make worldwide headlines) who run amuck and aim to kill: no concealed or openly carrying gun owner has AFAIK ever stopped or prevented one...