The Katyn Massacre - Who really did it?

[I. Kant]

It is true.

 

[I. Kant]

Just some new pieces of the puzzle.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/a...n-s-massacre-of-thousands-in-the-katyn-forest

 

[Alexander Ostmann]

Yeah, I just read this. What a shame on our part. Very disgraceful.

 

[I. Kant]

I am afraid to say it's just the tip of the iceberg among the disgraceful things US administration was party to. That's the problem with great nations: the people are absolutely fine for the most part, but as the populaton numbers increase, the statistical probability for an SOB to appear rise.

 

[Shadrach]

Well, there has been no doubt it was the Soviets for at least 60 years, even though they refused to admit it.

As sad as the US cover-up is, it is understandable considering the SU was an ally against Germany. It would look really bad for public opinion back in the states if word got out that Stalin was just as much a sadistic bastard as Hitler was. Of course, anyone with even minor knowledge of Russian politics already knew this, even before the war - but no-body listens to what a bunch of academics say anyway, over there.

 

[Gopblin]

There is no simple answer as to who did it.

The version blaming the Soviets has been described here, however there are serious problems with it, notably:

- Many of the Katyn documents released in the 90s are quite obviously crude forgeries (they include multiple anachronisms). This may be because Yeltsin couldn't find the original documents, or because such documents never existed.

- Physical evidence from Katyn site blames the Germans. Pistol casings and ropes were made in Germany, prisoners were warmly dressed suggesting executions in cold autumn of 1941, not late spring.

Now historians blaming the Soviets say that they used all German tools to frame the Germans, however this theory is very shaky at best. For this to be true, Soviets would have to be certain that the Germans will attack and win, pushing Soviets out of Poland and finding the bodies, and very soon. Basing a huge coverup like Katyn on some arbitrary predictions would certainly be very strange; moreover, NKVD men would never admit to thinking they expect the Red Army to be defeated.

Furthermore, if the Soviets were so concerned with Germans finding the bodies, they could just ship the prisoners to Siberia and execute them there; this certainly seems more foolproof than obtaining German weapons, ropes, etc. then burying bodies for Germans to find just so USSR can engage with a shouting match with Goebbels arguing who did it.


In short, the answer is not clear-cut. If I had to guess, I'd say the Soviets did it, simply because they had the prisoners initially (they claim to have transferred them to the Germans but that's another story). But it is quite obvious the "official" Western version of events is far from the truth.

Best wishes,
Daniel.

 

[I. Kant]

Dear Gopblin, thank you for this new, elucidating insight on the matter. If the "Western version of events" is far from it, then what is close to the truth? Is there a contradictory version? (Am I to infer that it is an "Eastern version of events"?)

I would gladly read any references you may have indicating the documents were fogeries (in either of the languages: German, Polish, English, Russian). I have not heard that claim previously and I am very much interested in finding out more. This has gone very meticulously unmentioned in any media I've come across to date, so I am grateful for bringing this to my attention. (Prompted by the claim you've presented, I am able to reach Pravda.ru as the top source claiming a forgery; searched in English to expedite the process, as I didn't want to wake my wife up to help me with some of the Russian)


Re: when the executions were carried out:

The information available to me puts the decision to carry out the killings at 5 March 1940.
The information I am familiar with indicates the killings were carried out in April/May 1940.
The last letters from Kozelsk, Ostashkov, Starobelsk were sent in March 1940 (letters from Polish POWs in camps in Syberia, Kazachstan, Uzbekistan kept being posted after that date).
Am I missing something?

As for soldiers in warm clothes in spring (specifically April/May), possibly some very rare finds:

1

2 (Note the light cap on the second soldier from the left, it may have been the Soviet counterpart to the baseball cap)

3

Und so weiter, и так далее, i te pe i te de, etc. (I should hope my point was proven, but feel free to dissent, I am sure it'll be very stimulating)

To my knowledge, after Germans revealed the sites in 1943, on the 15th April that year Moscow retorted with a previously unused version (and there had been quite a few of those up to that point; many of them, I suppose, considered very amusing by the NKVD, such as the story of the POWs escaping to Manchuria) detailing the fate of the POWs: that they'd been captured by Germans while employed on roadworks in the summer of 1941.

Summing up, I think it's quite clear the Polish POWs enjoyed the luxury to freely obtain any items of clothing they could have possibly desired, and thus after their capture by Zee Germans during the summer were promptly given new warm clothing of Polish army issue (such was Zee Germans love for order: Polish POWs were to march in Polish army clothes).
Yes, I was being sarcastic.

Now, honestly, though — am I missing something regarding the issue of clothing of Polish army issue (which, to my knowledge, the soldiers were equipped with around the time the II World War started, i.e. on the 1st Sept 1939, and thus would not have been very worn out by March/April/May 1940 and only partly replaced with what the prisoners may have been able to obtain in the way of something to weather the winter of 1939/1940)?

 

[Gopblin]

The info on forged documents in Russian can be found all over the RUnet, I'm not an expert obviously but here is a decent compilation:
http://forum-msk.org/material/power/4217737.html

In short, wrong names, wrong places, incorrect formatting, and very dubious "discovery" show that the original Katyn papers are largely (or entirely) forged.

Keep in mind though that this doesn't prove the Soviets didn't do it - merely that Yeltsin was an idiot, and we know that already.

As for the clothing, I read up a bit more on it, here's how it goes:
The officers are dressed warmly, in overcoats etc. Pro-Soviet historians say this is because they were shot in the fall. Anti-Soviet historians say this is because they were shot early spring. Doesn't prove anything either way I think.

As for alternative versions, there are at least two:

The Soviet/original "Western" version - that zee Germans did it (unproven, but the 'NKVD masquerading as Germans" is also weak as I detailed in my previous post). Please note that if Germans did it they would also be masquerading as NKVD, which further confuses the issue.

What Kaganovich said in an interview - that 3,000 Polish POWs were executed either for being somehow involved in the extermination of 20-80,000 Soviet POWs before, or for committing felonies such as rape or murder (this is based on one guy's words, admittedly he knew the truth but he could've lied about it)

Best wishes,
Daniel

 

[I. Kant]

Dear Gopblin,

As for the clothing issue: you brought it up, in my post I was dispelling it (in case you haven't noticed).

In your previous post you stated that "there is no simple answer". In my previous post I believe I've adressed it. You may want to head back up there and pore over that bit again, unless you have a readily available explanation for how the following things can be confusing in any degree:
- the knowledge where those Polish POWs were in the form of the Ukrainian and Russian POW lists, putting those 16-18 k POWs in specific locations (Ostashkov, Kozelsk, Starobelsk)
- the lack of letters from thousands of those POWs after March 1940, preceded by the March 5th 1940 decision to carry out killings, coinciding to the April/May 1940 time when the killings were carried out

Is there any place for confusion there? Where did the POWs go after they so suddenly fell silent, if they were not executed?

Now, you will have to allow me some time to get through the link you've provided, but off the bat, based on what I'd read up on until now:
- 1930s document letterhead for a decision signed in March 1940? Because in history of the world it never happened that bureaucratic apparati continued to use a surplus of obsolete document forms after new forms had already been introduced, yes.

Now, bringing in "the extermination of 20-80,000 Soviet POWs before" and "felonies such as rape or murder", these juicy morsels are where you did not fail to please.
I presume "the extermination" refers to the fate of Soviet POWs in the wake of the Polish-Bolshevik war of the early 1920s?
Well, then:
- Soviet POWs 1920s, wiki and The abstract from the 2004 inquiry.
So the number is around 20k of Soviet POWs out of a total of 80k-85k, due to diseases (which, arguably, may be seen as a form of extermination if it can be shown it was deliberate and limited only to the POWs; it wasn't limited only to the POWs)
- Polish POWs 1920s, wiki, with around 20k out of ca. 50k dying.

If anything, the treatment was universally bad, and this is obviously appalling, but — according to my knowledge — in no way were Soviet POWs exposed to any worse treatment than Polish POWs during that time and given the conditions of that time (you have to remember the Polish state had only been reborn some two-three years earlier from three disparate entities of former Prussian, Austrian and Russian partitions).

As for rape and murder:
- who was murdered?
- who was raped?
- when did it occur: pre-imprisonment, or already after it? (If after, are we to assume they were sodomites as well?)
- if only 3k were executed for such grevious offences, what happened to the ~18k who also vanished?
- I am by no means an expert, but isn't 3k out of 22k a rather high incidence of rape/murder? As it is, it comes out to 13.6%, which is 136 rapists/murderers per 1000. Now compare this to: Lesotho's 0.844 rapes per 1000 people and Turkey's 0.184 murders per 1000 people.
Put those two figures together for an atrocious total of 1.028 per 1000 people. Am I to understand the claim is that Polish military and police officers, and intelligentsia in 1930s/1940s were 136 times worse in this regard?
(Even if we account for crime rates diminishing per capita since the 1940s, would the change really be so stark and drastic?)


I'll take some time to read the link provided and I'll be sure to spill my guts regarding what I find there, rest assured.

 

[Gopblin]

Dear Gopblin,
As for the clothing issue: you brought it up, in my post I was dispelling it (in case you haven't noticed).

Fair enough. I think we can agree that while prisoners were indeed dressed warmly, it merely indicates they weren't shot in May-September, but doesn't prove who did it (Soviets in March-April or Germans in the fall).

In your previous post you stated that "there is no simple answer". In my previous post I believe I've adressed it. You may want to head back up there and pore over that bit again, unless you have a readily available explanation for how the following things can be confusing in any degree:
- the knowledge where those Polish POWs were in the form of the Ukrainian and Russian POW lists, putting those 16-18 k POWs in specific locations (Ostashkov, Kozelsk, Starobelsk)

And that is why I think it is likely Soviets did it - they had the prisoners initially. After that, they either executed them or failed to evacuate them properly, which I suppose still puts some blame on them.

- the lack of letters from thousands of those POWs after March 1940, preceded by the March 5th 1940 decision to carry out killings, coinciding to the April/May 1940 time when the killings were carried out

Is there any place for confusion there? Where did the POWs go after they so suddenly fell silent, if they were not executed?

If they were transferred to do roadwork as Soviets claim, writing home would be forbidden - forced labor by POWs was against international law.

As for the decision, it may have never existed - the papers about that decision are likely forged.

Now, you will have to allow me some time to get through the link you've provided, but off the bat, based on what I'd read up on until now:
- 1930s document letterhead for a decision signed in March 1940? Because in history of the world it never happened that bureaucratic apparati continued to use a surplus of obsolete document forms after new forms had already been introduced, yes.

There are multiple problems with those documents, here are a select few:
- Beria letter was written in Feb, but includes statistics only collected in March
- Shepilin note is a VKPb form, but with KPSS seal (like having a NKVD document with KGB seals)
- Signatures and names have multiple misspellings, notably Mikoyan signed his own name wrong (Mikoyav), Kobulov is misspelled as Kabulov, etc
- Multiple required dates and stamps are missing on documents, e.g. documents that say "sign and return within 24 hours" don't have signatures or return marks
- Date confusion, e.g. documents that have departure stamps from 1959 have received stamps in 1965
Etc etc.

Basically the documents are quite obviously forged which, again, doesn't prove that the Soviets didn't do it.

For example, it seems plausible that the beginning of the Beria letter is original (it's printed on the same typewriter as other documents of the period), whereas the rest of it is forged (printed on a different typewriter at a different time). From what I understand, this means that Beria did offer some solution to the Polish officer problem. It could've been any combination of execution and forced labor, and the documents could've been later forged to conform more closely to the German/Polish version (e.g. the original letter could've ordered execution of 8,000 prisoners, and not all of them).

Now, bringing in "the extermination of 20-80,000 Soviet POWs before" and "felonies such as rape or murder", these juicy morsels are where you did not fail to please.
I presume "the extermination" refers to the fate of Soviet POWs in the wake of the Polish-Bolshevik war of the early 1920s?
Well, then:
- Soviet POWs 1920s, wiki and The abstract from the 2004 inquiry.
So the number is around 20k of Soviet POWs out of a total of 80k-85k, due to diseases (which, arguably, may be seen as a form of extermination if it can be shown it was deliberate and limited only to the POWs; it wasn't limited only to the POWs)
- Polish POWs 1920s, wiki, with around 20k out of ca. 50k dying.

If anything, the treatment was universally bad, and this is obviously appalling, but

 

[Gopblin]

Two more things to be added here:

The interpretation of mass graves by German and Polish teams ignores multiple inconsistencies with the "paper" version, e.g.
- Presence of a large number of civilians, notably priests, and common soldiers in the graves (which are supposed to contain only officers)
- Refusal by German authorities to investigate other mass graves in the area, presumably because they had civilians executed by the Germans at the same site
- Lists of victims found by Germans seem to be compiled with full knowledge of who is buried, where and when (e.g. generals were found first, despite being on the bottom of a giant pile of bodies). This could be because the Germans did the shooting, or because they investigated the graves thoroughly for months, compiled a plausible story, then announced it to the world as "just discovered"
- There are multiple claims of 1941 money or ammo casings found in the graves, but German or Polish authorities have not released any such items
- Attempts by Polish teams to categorize graves that contained civilians executed by Germans or Russians as officers from Katyn

Also, contradictory eyewitness evidence is often ignored
- Multiple people claim that Polish policemen (claimed to have been executed) were in fact transferred to Murmansk. No such evidence exists for officers, however.
- Multiple people confirmed Wermach executing masses of Polish officers next to Katyn

ON THE OTHER HAND, the pro-Soviet historians fail to provide substantial evidence that the Polish officers were alive in the camps after 1940. The evidence was destroyed in the 40s, but there are few eyewitness accounts confirming this either. So it is likely that the officers were either executed, or transferred to forced labor in 1940

From this evidence, I'd conclude the following:
- It seems likely that the Soviets executed at least some Polish officers in the Katyn case
- It seems likely that the Germans executed at least some Polish officers in the Katyn case
- Not all people on the Katyn lists were executed (this is a fact, although exceptions are few)
- I do not have enough evidence to conclude who killed how many people

Best wishes,
Daniel

 

[[Mad_Murdock]]

Wow. This is by far the most cohesive and civilized discussion of the Katyn incident I have ever read. Kant, Gopblin, thank you for reaffirming my faith in humanity, despite what is discussed here.

Personally, I was unaware of the entire tragedy until a few years ago, when it started popping up in my history readings. After digging around I came across a lot of the facts that the two of you mentioned. Naturally, living in the States, the only version I have had most access to was the "Western" Soviets did all of it version. Since then though, I've arrived at pretty much the same conclusion that you did Gopblin, it seems that both the Germans and the Soviets had a gruesome field day out there at the cost of the Polish people.

The tipping point for me was when I found out about the letters and documents being forgeries. Admittedly, before this I sided with the Soviets did it version as well, but afterwards the pond got all muddied up again and became a bit of a mess. I honestly think now that what became known as the Katyn Massacre was not actually a single event, but rather a series of POW and civilian executions taking place between early 1940 and mid-1941. This takes into account both the mismatched evidence and the lack of history on the fate of a large portion of the POWs.

-It would seem to me that initially, when the POWs were mainly in Soviet hands, a number of them were executed for various reasons (political, criminal, fabricated, etc.).
-Then, with the German advance into Poland, any attempt to contain or transfer the POWs fell by the wayside as more important things, such as the haphazard retreat of the Red Army took center stage for the Soviet authorities. Hence, I doubt that in that part of 1941, even the Soviets knew where exactly those POWs were.
-At that point, the Germans re-captured a lot of them, either wandering the countryside, or still confined/transferred by the Red Army and NKVD. Now, the situation repeats itself, the Germans finding themselves in possession of these POWs could not let a lot of them (especially high ranking officers) go, and thus had a number of them executed for the same reasons as the Soviets did.

This results in multiple mass graves located in a very small area (Katyn), and the confusion as to the perpetrators. When the obvious answer to me is both. The conveniently established graves did allow the Germans to (post-war) blame the Soviets for the entirety of the incident, but whether or not this was the plan at the beginning is debatable, and I doubt it was.

All in all, a sad display of fratricide by both sides that yielded nothing but suffering for the Polish people, and it shames me to know that at least some of the perpetrators were my own countrymen. I offer my sympathies, such as they are, to the families of those who were unjustly murdered for seemingly no reason at all.

 

[bifutake]

http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/truthaboutkatyn.html

i recommend reading the entire article but i'll also try to extract some of the highlights...

Dear XXX:

You say you know the Soviets killed the Polish officers who are buried at Katyn.

But you do not know that. You believe that.

Belief is not the same thing as knowledge.

I've looked into this a good deal. In my view, nobody knows.

Even if these documents turn out to have been forgeries, that would not mean the Soviets didn't do it. It would simply mean that the evidence doesn't prove they did.

Maybe the Soviets did it! After all, either the Soviets killed the Polish officers, or the Nazis did.

Or -- as I am increasingly inclined to think -- the Soviets shot some of the Polish officers, and then later the Nazis shot the rest, for different reasons.

So, maybe the Soviets did shoot them all. But the evidence is not there.

Perhaps this paper was "planted" by the Soviets, to dupe Ms Harriman? Sure -- and perhaps all the similar papers found by the Germans were planted by them, to fool the Polish Red Cross and other observers in 1943.

Or, maybe none of these documents were "planted" -- which would mean that the Soviets had shot some of the officers, and the Germans shot others. But nobody wants to hear that! Certainly not the Polish nationalists and anticommunists, because it would ruin a perfectly good "communist atrocity story."

The anticommunist "Soviets-did-it" school make Katyn out to have been a great crime. And so it was -- no matter who did it, Soviets, Nazis, or both.

So how about the Western Allies? Frankly, their atrocities are greater than those of killing the Polish officers.

The British fire-bombing of Dresden in February 1945 killed at least 25,000 civilian noncombatants!

And this was only one incident! "Overall, Anglo-American bombing of German cities claimed between 305,000 and 600,000 civilian lives." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II )

These atrocities are not stressed enough. Why not? See below.

---

Polish Massacres of Russian POWs 1919-1920

So the "official, scholarly" Russian and Polish positions are far apart.
- 165,000 Red Army POWs in Poland (Russian version) vs 80,000 - 85,000 (Polish).
- In the Russian version, 75,699 Red Army men returned from Polish captivity. By the Polish count, the maximum number that could have returned would be about 62,000.
- In the Polish version, between 16,000 and 20,000 Red Army POWs died in Polish captivity; in the Russian version, about 60,000 died.

But the main point is clear. This has everything to do with the Katyn issue. A good guess (mine, but others suggest it too) is that some of the Polish officers shot by the Soviets -- yes, I think the evidence is that some were -- were implicated in the Polish war crimes against Soviet POWs during 1919-1921.

There is very, very little attempt at objectivity in the study of Soviet history.

1. There is a serious historical question about the Katyn killings, and killings of Polish officers generally. There's good evidence that both the Soviets and, later, the Germans, killed Polish officers, for very different reasons.

This serious -- and, by the way, very interesting -- historical controversy is simply ignored, "denied", in the service of Polish nationalism and anticommunist indoctrination.

2. The Katyn Massacre is a matter of faith for the current right-wing Polish government. It is virtually illegal to question it in Poland, just as it is literally illegal to compare Polish killings of Jews with German killings of Jews. Just as, in Ukraine, it is literally illegal to question the claim that the famine of 1932-33 was "man-made" by "Stalin", despite the fact that there is no evidence -- zero! -- supporting that claim, and a lot of excellent research that thoroughly refutes it.

In short, if you think you know something about the "Katyn Massacre" -- or, for that matter, about Soviet history during the Stalin period -- think again. You don't!

for those who can spare the time and interest, i would recommend another very useful and closely related article by the same author, regarding soviet-polish relations of that period:

http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/research/mlg09/did_ussr_invade_poland.html

Did the Soviet Union Invade Poland in September 1939?

(The answer: No, it did not.)

Grover Furr

 

[I. Kant]

Guys, guys, gimme a break, I can't even respond to Gopblin and Murdock's posts for lack of time and here you are ganking up on me like that: this is heavy-weight material that just makes my head spin and I don't currently have time to refute a lot of those blanket statements from a very impartial and obviously neutral and non-biased Grover Furr (who is quite the sophist and a stickler for semantics where it serves him and happy to sidestep them where it doesn't; who quotes a newspaper article claiming one thing, even though the same article says something else two sentences later; and who can't even get the name of the Polish GiE's Minister of Foreign Affairs right, not when he's taking it from Soviet documents, etc.)!

Halp, I'm being ganked! (seeing as it'll be easier for me to address bifutake's post first, but not before the weekend, I'll have to put a reply to the two earlier posts on a backburner — and we all know wot dat means around these parts)

Catch you later,
Your Polish Ultra-Catholic Fascist Extraordinaire

 

[bifutake]

I don't currently have time to refute a lot of those blanket statements

when you do find it, please let us know what those "blanket statements" are.

from a very impartial and obviously neutral and non-biased Grover Furr

are you trying to imply that these are the necessary prerequisites for a plausible interpretation of history (btw. EVERY work of a historian is already a subjective interpretation, which is simply a product of his/her personal viewpoints and professional limitations)? no one is impartial or neutral, everyone is biased. that out of the way, in future discussion please try to refer to professor furr's arguments instead of his so-called lack of neutrality.

(disclaimer: this doesn't mean that i'm advocating a break from traditional historiography which holds objectivity as one of its core principles. i'm merely pointing out the fact that we'll never achieve absolute objectiveness, inoculated from the imperfections of our collective memories, lack of and tampering with material/archival evidence and the everyday influences of the society that shapes our thoughts and values.)

that said, i also don't see how professor furr's stance (to paraphrase: maybe the soviets did it, but it's a highly politicized issue with no conclusive evidence in sight) falls into a category of a "partial and biased", and therefore unreliable account.

who is quite the sophist and a stickler for semantics where it serves him and happy to sidestep them where it doesn't

for example?

who quotes a newspaper article claiming one thing, even though the same article says something else two sentences later

what article is that?

and who can't even get the name of the Polish GiE's Minister of Foreign Affairs right, not when he's taking it from Soviet documents, etc.)

http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/research/mlg09/did_ussr_invade_poland.html

As late as January 26, 1939, Polish Foreign Minister Beck was discussing this with Nazi Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop in Warsaw. Ribbentrop wrote:... 2. I then spoke to M. Beck once more about the policy to be pursued by Poland and Germany towards the Soviet Union and in this connection also spoke about the question of the Greater Ukraine and again proposed Polish-German collaboration in this field.

M. Beck made no secret of the fact that Poland had aspirations directed toward the Soviet Ukraine and a connection with the Black Sea...

(Original in Akten zur deutschen ausw�rtigen Politik... Serie D. Bd. V. S. 139-140. English translation in Documents on German Foreign Policy. 1918-1945. Series D. Vol. V. The document in question is No. 126, pp. 167-168; this quotation on p. 168. Also in Russian in God Krizisa T. 1, Doc. No. 120.)


Polish Foreign Minister Beck was telling Ribbentrop that Poland would like to seize ALL of the Ukraine from the USSR, for that was the only way Poland could have had "a connection with the Black Sea."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J

 

[I. Kant]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J

 

[bifutake]

No, I didn't refer to J. Beck, but to — as I've already indicated — the Government-in-Exile's Minister of Foreign Affairs at the time Mr Furr referred to, who was referred to as "Zalesski"and who actually was A. Zalewski, as Mr Furr cares so much for exploring Soviet sources, that he can't be bothered to check how a Pole is really named.

well, sound the alarm, this changes everything!

wait a minute. you're linking to wikipedia where it reads: zaleski. even on polish wiki it says zaleski. so, furr put one s too many. you put a w. wth?

also, i can't even find that part through my browser's text searching capabilities. are you sure you didn't dream this entire grave incident?

to check how a Pole is really named.

call the police. have him indicted for disrespecting every polish person in existence.

And the propaganda poster was a tounge-in-cheek joke, in case you didn't realise.

well, you don't see me laughing, do you?

Let me state it clearly here: I am not a fascist, nor a nationalist (but I'd like to think of myself as a patriot). (Nor am I a particularly fervent Catholic for that matter).

couldn't care less.

Was there a feeling of entitlement to those lands (which had been a part of the 1st Commonwealth)? Yes. Justified? Well, therein lies the pickle.

you do remember that nazi germany used its "historical claim" to justify the invasions of its neighbours (and beyond)? does the pickle lie here as well?

seeing as Mr Furr is not a qualified historian, his BA and PhD being in areas of language and literature, I am equally academically qualified when it comes to history

irrelevant. on his website he made a persuasive case on this matter while citing primary sources from different archives. i haven't exactly noticed that you conducted a similar effort.

 

[I. Kant]

I made a mistake, the surname was indeed Zaleski (I will admit I was a trifle distracted as I was engaged in a conversation with my wife at the time I posted, hence why I wanted to avoid the hassle of responding now and postpone my reply till weekend; I must have just slapped that "w" in there, as both surnames are equally valid in Polish).

http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/research/mlg09/maisky_101739_102739.html

Here's the passage I referred to, where you will find Maisky's reference to "Zalesski".

Either way, take care in the meantime. Best regards!

 

[bifutake]

well yeah, it's a translation from a russian document which spelled the name: zalesski. for some reason, during translation, furr didn't delete the extra s. really not a big deal in my opinion.

thanks for the missing link (pun not intended). cheers.

 

[Zakarro]

There is a lot of evidence disputing whether the Katyn Massacre was a Soviet or German war crime. I've only found one article from a Socialist point of view claiming that the Germans did it, which is nothing compared to the amount of articles saying otherwise.

What I really want to know is what you guys think?

Of course you only found one article because the web is controlled by western fascist corporations that are going to tell you their "truth"