• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Tactics Reload Canceling

Gladius;n2291160 said:
There is a list on the forum here about how many fractions of a second that "exploit" effectively gives. It really isn't a problem. Maybe with the one exception of the railgun but this thing shouldn't be used anyways. And when someone has really the high skill to get a little edge when killing a fleshpound with the boomstick, he has my highest respect and I will call him a pro but not an exploiter.

Reload cancel is not an exploit. It's a game mechanic for the purpose of not getting stuck in an unwanted reload. And complaining about the side effect that on some weapons the total reload time can be shortened by an totally insigniificant time is just **** retentive.

an exploit is using a feature to benefit the player in an unintentional way, I'm going on a limb here and assume the devs did not code this in with the intention to have people reload cancel to gain fractions of a second faster reload.

If it is insignificant, there should be no problem fixing it, and no reason to defend it..exploit or not. If it gives the player an advantage by still reloading while bailing out of an unwanted reload animation..it is an exploit...and should be fixed.

Is it a priority? not really as its impact on gameplay is very limited, so its not really worth dev time at this moment.
 
Upvote 0
Gladius;n2291724 said:
There are really more reasonable construction sites to spend that developement capacity at. It's a non issue and those complaints are more of an ideological thing of people getting triggered by the buzzword "exploit".

I agree it is not a priority at this moment in time, as it isn't game breaking and the game would benefit far more from balance changes and additional content. however once its time to polish up the game and all higher priority problems have been dealt with, removing the fractional reload speed benefit from reload canceling should be fixed.
 
Upvote 0
conductiv;n2291729 said:
I agree it is not a priority at this moment in time, as it isn't game breaking and the game would benefit far more from balance changes and additional content. however once its time to polish up the game and all higher priority problems have been dealt with, removing the fractional reload speed benefit from reload canceling should be fixed.


That's the thing. If it's not gamebreaking, it shouldn't be fixed.
It IS an exploit (that is, taking advantage of a mechanic not intended by the developers). That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, or that it's cheating. In a sense, it's no different from when players figure out how to do certain things that devs don't forsee.

But they'll only step in if there's an issue. And the thing is, even if the devs DID think it's a gamebreaking issue...then it's removed on that basis, not that it's an "exploit".
 
Upvote 0
silverlighted;n2293004 said:
That's the thing. If it's not gamebreaking, it shouldn't be fixed.
It IS an exploit (that is, taking advantage of a mechanic not intended by the developers). That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, or that it's cheating. In a sense, it's no different from when players figure out how to do certain things that devs don't forsee.

But they'll only step in if there's an issue. And the thing is, even if the devs DID think it's a gamebreaking issue...then it's removed on that basis, not that it's an "exploit".

that is your opinion, personally I prefer glitch and exploit free games and would prefer devs to devote assets to it when other major problems have been resolved, game breaking glitches/expliots are different in the aspect that they significantly affect game balance and as such should be fixed as a high priority.
 
Upvote 0
conductiv;n2293839 said:
that is your opinion, personally I prefer glitch and exploit free games and would prefer devs to devote assets to it when other major problems have been resolved, game breaking glitches/expliots are different in the aspect that they significantly affect game balance and as such should be fixed as a high priority.

Of course it's my opinion, but I attempted to justify it, so it has a little bit more weight than

personally I prefer glitch and exploit free games

When discussing game balance, of course everything we say is based on opinion, but we are attempting to discern objective facts in those opinions.

When someone argues that a certain loadout is superior to another, of course it's their opinion. It's not as straightforward as a mathematical proof. But arguments can be made that can make the opinion more substantive than just saying "I like turtles".

I could go into further detail about the nature of exploits with in-game examples (e.g.swat+medic smg) and analogies (e.g. the entire fighting game genre), but you've already elected to ignore half of my earlier post.

Gladius;n2291724 said:
It's a non issue and those complaints are more of an ideological thing of people getting triggered by the buzzword "exploit".

I think this fellow hit it on the head. It does sound like the whole of what you have to say on the matter is the single axiom "exploits should be fixed", with exploit being defined as "a feature to benefit the player in an unintentional way". Frankly, this is an incoherent position, but it doesn't sound like you're willing to budge at all.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
silverlighted;n2294876 said:
Of course it's my opinion, but I attempted to justify it, so it has a little bit more weight than



When discussing game balance, of course everything we say is based on opinion, but we are attempting to discern objective facts in those opinions.

When someone argues that a certain loadout is superior to another, of course it's their opinion. It's not as straightforward as a mathematical proof. But arguments can be made that can make the opinion more substantive than just saying "I like turtles".

I could go into further detail about the nature of exploits with in-game examples (e.g.swat+medic smg) and analogies (e.g. the entire fighting game genre), but you've already elected to ignore half of my earlier post.



I think this fellow hit it on the head. It does sound like the whole of what you have to say on the matter is the single axiom "exploits should be fixed", with exploit being defined as "a feature to benefit the player in an unintentional way". Frankly, this is an incoherent position, but it doesn't sound like you're willing to budge at all.

you justified by by claiming nothing is wrong with it and the person using exploits isn't cheating, Gladius claimed it wasn't important to fix because it doesn't break the game. definition is there before we start another discussion about what an exploit actually is.

incoherent position...pot kettle situation or is there something more substantial to these claims. we are talking about a situation where a animation cancel is used to shave milliseconds of a reload, this isn't game breaking...and fixing it would have hardly if any impact on the actual gameplay. it does remove the weird "magazine magically teleporting into the other gun" or "cocking lever not used yet the gun is ready to fire" and these things don't add anything "unique" to the game.

from where I am standing, your position is "leave it in" mine is "leave it in until this becomes a priority and it is time to polish the game" I don't have to budge atoll and neither do you on that.

this does make me wonder, my "I like turtles" comment was that I like bug, glitch and exploit free games...and since you are so adamantly against that you seem to prefer your games to include bugs, glitches and exploits...at least to a degree you don't care atoll if these are in there, provided they don't break the game. why is that? I was under the assumption that bugs, glitches and exploits are universally undesirable in games and people prefer polished games.
 
Upvote 0
Quake series bunnyhopping, Tribes hopslides. COD series sprint reload cancel and etc. Is there anything to fix?

Personally I think they should remove bunnyhopping and sliding in all arena FPSes, and use dodging and wall dodging only. And limit turning speed, being able to aim almost as fast as you like is exploity, people shouldn't be able to play so much better than others just because they have slightly better hardware, spend more hours practicing and being perceptive enough to notice these idiosyncrasies in gameplay mechanics and implementation oversights. I bet the developers for example for Portal 1 and Portal 2 are stirred crazy from players being able to make their own shortcuts. These people should just fall in line and play the games as they are supposed to! Also, kitchen knives and hammers can be used as weapons we should ban them! (Or at least require a usage license, which requires a psyche test among other things to get.)
 
Upvote 0
conductiv;n2295044 said:
you justified by by claiming nothing is wrong with it and the person using exploits isn't cheating, Gladius claimed it wasn't important to fix because it doesn't break the game. definition is there before we start another discussion about what an exploit actually is.

What? lol

incoherent position...pot kettle situation or is there something more substantial to these claims. we are talking about a situation where a animation cancel is used to shave milliseconds of a reload, this isn't game breaking...and fixing it would have hardly if any impact on the actual gameplay. it does remove the weird "magazine magically teleporting into the other gun" or "cocking lever not used yet the gun is ready to fire" and these things don't add anything "unique" to the game.

No, it's not a pot kettle situation at all. Your position IS incoherent. Because from the getgo, you announced that "an exploit is using a feature to benefit the player in an unintentional way".

e.g.
Infinite med darts during zed time wasn't intended. But TWI was fine with it and left it in. Should that be removed too? Based on what you keep saying, yes it should.

That's what I'm saying when I say your view is incoherent.
Unless you actually think that it should be removed all because TWI didn't come up with it initially. But I am hoping to god that you are not that obstinate.

from where I am standing, your position is "leave it in" mine is "leave it in until this becomes a priority and it is time to polish the game" I don't have to budge atoll and neither do you on that.

No, that has never been my position. That was the other guy's. It's rather disingenuous for you to say that.

this does make me wonder, my "I like turtles" comment was that I like bug, glitch and exploit free games...and since you are so adamantly against that you seem to prefer your games to include bugs, glitches and exploits...at least to a degree you don't care atoll if these are in there, provided they don't break the game. why is that? I was under the assumption that bugs, glitches and exploits are universally undesirable in games and people prefer polished games.

Bugs and glitches are usually undesirable in games, not always. But that's besides the point. I never said that I preferred games to include x, y, and z. Actually, why are you suddenly mentioning bugs and glitches. I've only been talking about exploits. They aren't even the same thing. The whole point of what I've been saying is that it's not cut-and-dried, which you seem to keep ignoring.

Whatever, I give up. I'm done here. This is what I mean when I say you're not even willing to budge. All you can say is that BUGS GLITCHES AND EXPLOITS ARE BAD without examining the motivations behind your statement, or any of the points that I've made. You don't have to budge. It's the willingness to do so. But you're not even having a conversation with me. Hell, I bet you'd have a brain aneurysm if you were around for the KF1 days of shotgun uppercuts.

Captain Blu:3;n2295182 said:

I love you. The entire fighting game genre should be wiped off the map too because combos are all about exploiting cancellable frames.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
silverlighted;n2295333 said:
What? lol



No, it's not a pot kettle situation at all. Your position IS incoherent. Because from the getgo, you announced that "an exploit is using a feature to benefit the player in an unintentional way".

e.g.
Infinite med darts during zed time wasn't intended. But TWI was fine with it and left it in. Should that be removed too? Based on what you keep saying, yes it should.

That's what I'm saying when I say your view is incoherent.
Unless you actually think that it should be removed all because TWI didn't come up with it initially. But I am hoping to god that you are not that obstinate.



No, that has never been my position. That was the other guy's. It's rather disingenuous for you to say that.



Bugs and glitches are usually undesirable in games, not always. But that's besides the point. I never said that I preferred games to include x, y, and z. Actually, why are you suddenly mentioning bugs and glitches. I've only been talking about exploits. They aren't even the same thing. The whole point of what I've been saying is that it's not cut-and-dried, which you seem to keep ignoring.

Whatever, I give up. I'm done here. This is what I mean when I say you're not even willing to budge. All you can say is that BUGS GLITCHES AND EXPLOITS ARE BAD without examining the motivations behind your statement, or any of the points that I've made. You don't have to budge. It's the willingness to do so. But you're not even having a conversation with me. Hell, I bet you'd have a brain aneurysm if you were around for the KF1 days of shotgun uppercuts.



I love you. The entire fighting game genre should be wiped off the map too because combos are all about exploiting cancellable frames.

yeah this went south, I have no intention of insulting you in any way shape or form... insults or accusations don't really promote civil discussion

what exactly is your position with reference to removing or keeping the slightly faster reload by reload cancel, from your first post I do feel you are for keeping it in, with the basis that it isn't game breaking and the devs haven't taken action against it.

this example about med darts is pretty darn good, because in this very example the developer would endorse the glitch, removing the unintended part of the definition (as from that point on it is expected you can do that during ZED time) and making it a feature rather then an exploit. However, this would not adhere to what most would consider "fixing a exploit" by just having a dev say "yup, we are going to keep that around"...it is much like getting a new product from a failed experiment, the experiment did not yield the desired result (as such the process would still have failed), but the outcome is still desirable in another way (the new process would not be considered a failure from that point on, provided the desirable product is produced)

it is likely the devs will leave the subject exploit in, just because fixing it would not substantially improve gameplay or immersion while taking up dev time. this is a different form of "yup, we are going to keep that" keeping it as a unintended feature..just not one worth caring about

and I do feel that, provided there are no other pressing priorities, these issues should be fixed. How, well they could make the animation slightly faster, but uninterruptable so it lines up neatly but doesn't change the current reload advantage, or just cancel the reload function while interrupting it. I can't really see how fixing an animation or changing the cancel function would be a big problem...its polish...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
The people whining in this thread that all """exploits""" are things that need to be fixed are the reason Bungie removed BXR/BXB and double shotting in Halo. If developers never thought any further than "it's a bug we must remove it" then not even strafe jumping, probably the single most iconic movement system in all of video games, would exist. Hell, quake and arena shooters in general are pretty much built around the entire concept (or a similar one).

Something being unintentional doesn't mean it's bad. Giving the player options and tools to use and practice and get better at to make them a better player is not bad. It adds depth and longevity, and a way for them to separate and distinguish themselves from the rest.

Now I'm not comparing the depth added from something as complex and difficult as strafe jumping to a simple little reload cancel, but reload cancels DO deepen the experience, even if it's just a slight mechanical thing. It's satisfying when you pull it off when you need it, and quite rewarding when you actually get good at it. If it was a bug that let you 4 RPG in half a second by just holding left mouse button and S I'd have an issue, but as it stands if you can really still manage to think clearly enough amidst all of the chaos and insanity as your team is swarmed by an army of zeds to execute and aim your reload cancels perfectly and probably save lives by getting that fleshpound and scrake down a fraction of a second faster than another player would have been able to then more power to you my man. I'm glad tripwire gave you the opportunity to look like such an absolute badass and prevent a wipe like that.

So please tripwire, whatever you do, don't "fix" the reload cancel. There is nothing wrong with mechanical complexity, and it's actually something I find the game needing.

Edit: Didn't realize how slow this board was to have an almost 5 month old post on the first page.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Zakillah
Upvote 0
Little did i know i was doing this wrong for a long time (never watched a video on it) i just bashed the full bash animation thinking that was the 'exploit'. but now knowing you can cancel your reload with a bash then cancel your bash with shooting.... this is the best thing XD. i play on console so i can confirm it also works on the PS4 platform. it does take some
precision and skill to pull of consistency in the heat of battle so its more of a feature like wavedashing in super smash bros melee. for a long time it was seen in the community as an exploit. but over time became a core mechanic of the game recognized by the creator of the game. such as tripwire acknowledging that this reload cancel is in the game for each and every gun... but they don't see it as an issue since it requires some skill to actually do. now that i know of this and know the proper technique to pull this off it'd be a shame if they took it out now.
 
Upvote 0
Diddy_;n2307458 said:
The people whining in this thread that all """exploits""" are things that need to be fixed are the reason Bungie removed BXR/BXB and double shotting in Halo. If developers never thought any further than "it's a bug we must remove it" then not even strafe jumping, probably the single most iconic movement system in all of video games, would exist. Hell, quake and arena shooters in general are pretty much built around the entire concept (or a similar one).

Reload cancelling doesn't affect all the perks the same, where as Quake has no perks. Developers are put in a tough spot where they have to decide whether to balance based on the bug or not. If they assume everyone will use the bug, then those who don't are put at a significant disadvantage, and the bug has to be advertised so average players actually know about it. If they ignore the bug, then perks which can take advantage of it become the best, and the other perks might as well not exist.

Also, some of the perks have reload speed skills which are circumvented and made useless by reload cancelling. Again, this wasn't something the could occur in a game like Quake because there was no skill tree with one skill being "move faster".

I'm not saying reload cancel should or should not be removed, but strafe jumping is extremely different compared to reload cancelling because of fundamental differences in the game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: taiiat
Upvote 0