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Another "Alternate Tier 1 weapons" thread because Prestige still needs a buff

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  • Another "Alternate Tier 1 weapons" thread because Prestige still needs a buff

    Can we get actual prestige incentives like new Tier 1 weapons? The Summer 2018 changes are a really strong deterrent against prestige-ing, and simply having more levels is kinda meaningless. Perhaps instead of thinking about Prestige 4, maybe we could buff the existing Prestige ranks?

    Before i comment any further on my suggestion, i don't think what I will suggest will give prestiged players a gameplay advantage as the weapons suggested below would still be purchasable at the Trader pod and ideally, should have the same level of utility as the existing Tier 1 weapons.

    Anyways...

    Berserker/Support: Pipe Gun

    A pipe gun in the most literal sense, in that it's dual-wielded pipes turned into a slamfire shotgun. Damage-wise, it'd probably have the stopping power of a singular Doomstick shot, but ammo would be sparse enough to warrant using this weapon in melee. As for how effective it'd be as a melee weapon, i think it'd be closer to the Katana before it was a Berserker weapon (34 light attack, 68 heavy attack)

    As for the actual firing of the shotgun, perhaps it'd use Melee Bash for shooting rather than Heavy Swing?

    Demolitionist/Sharpshooter: SAP-6 Demolitionist Shotgun

    As i have suggested before, this would be a magazine-fed pump action shotgun loaded with FRAG-12 ammunition. Because of this, it'd probably feel more at home with the Sharpshooter than Support since the usage of slugs means that it would behave more like a rifle. I think one artistic license that could be used in regards to the FRAG-12 slug's functionality would be to give it a 3 meter blast radius on headshots, since the real life shell only has a measly 1m blast radius

    Field Medic/Sharpshooter: Wrist Bow

    You know how fantasy games like to have those wrist-mounted crossbows because they don't want their elves to use guns? I feel like we could give the highest damaging Tier 1 to the Medic, armed with a scrap metal wrist bow that shoots medic darts like poison arrows. Because the darts themselves are being used as weapons, they would not be able to autoaim. Maybe they could have a small 20 damage explosion to compensate for the lack of homing darts? (The darts themselves could heal 15 on explosion and 20 on direct hits, with both numbers stacking to reward good aim).

    Berserker/Sharpshooter: Throwing Knives

    Literally just a set of redundant perk knives. Pretty much, you'd reload to switch between Heavy Swing and Throw, with projectiles hitting as hard as a heavy swing. Could possibly seen as a sidegrade to the Crovel and Winchester. In the case of Zerker, you're trading your heavy attack damage for a ranged option and with Sharpshooter, you have a weapon with reusable ammo.

    Firebug/Demolitionist: Flare Gun
    Yes, i know the spitfires are a thing, but i think the Flare Gun would be a higher damage weapon, shooting the much larger 12ga flare as opposed to the homemade incendiary bullets of the Spitfire. In terms of damage, it'd probably be closer to the deagles because you're firing a single-shot slug?

    Commando: Some kind of 10rd weapon
    Can't think of a specific rifle that could fit this role, but i feel like a decent choice for a Tier 1 would be a "pocket rocket" type of weapon, a full auto weapon with higher damage than the Varmint rifle but only has 10 rounds, so it'd be something you'd save for Husks without having to throw a grenade at their feet.

    Already in Game

    The Gunslinger has a lot of cross-perk tier 1 weapons, so it should be easy for him to have a lot of alternatives for his starting revolvers (i.e: Winchester at Prestige 1, Medic Pistol at Prestige 2, HX25 at Prestige 3). Additionally, i have to wonder if the AR-15 Varmint Rifle could be made as a SWAT weapon since it is chambered in standard 9mm ammunition

    I think this thread should cover all the perks minus survivalist
    Last edited by flashn00b; 12-05-2018, 08:38 PM.

  • #2
    I mean prestige was create by the demand of players wanting to level up again.
    As far as i'm aware other games didn't offer anything new locked behind the prestige.... altho i only played mw2 back in the day and it only gave new badges as a reward for completing prestige ranks.

    On weapon i currently have no opinion as i'm too tired after a long session of driving around in the crew x)

    inb4 expect "No" as an answer xD

    Edit: on second thought, i'd like to see prestige to get buffed a bit... Not in a sense of "here's a new stick to play" but rather xp distribution to individual perks.

    there are some perks that are still a complete pain in the but to level up, in the likes of medic, swat, sharp, zerker (maybe?)
    it just drags on to level up a few levels with those classes.... While mando and demo can just blow stuff up everywhere and support just go ham with aa12 to lvl up fast without taking much time
    Last edited by s5yn3t; 12-05-2018, 07:17 PM.

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    • #3
      No, any prestige incentives should only be cosmetic. One because of reasons listed by s5yn3t (prestige being optional on a player's initiative), the other because it biases the start of any games towards prestiged players.

      Consider KF1 when the tier of starting weapons depend on your perk levels. Higher level players automatically have more earning potential than lower level players in KF1 because better starting weapons = more killing power; I can easily see a parallel to this situation in KF2 should prestige offer game-affecting rewards-- Suddenly, most other players need to prestige (even if they don't want to) just to keep up with prestiged players, even if their hours of play can be equivalent.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TheAphabet View Post
        No, any prestige incentives should only be cosmetic. One because of reasons listed by s5yn3t (prestige being optional on a player's initiative), the other because it biases the start of any games towards prestiged players.

        Consider KF1 when the tier of starting weapons depend on your perk levels. Higher level players automatically have more earning potential than lower level players in KF1 because better starting weapons = more killing power; I can easily see a parallel to this situation in KF2 should prestige offer game-affecting rewards-- Suddenly, most other players need to prestige (even if they don't want to) just to keep up with prestiged players, even if their hours of play can be equivalent.
        I do not know if "alternate tier 1 weapons" would be considered advantageous if you were to prestige, since it'd be more like an "apples and oranges" sort of scenario.

        In the case of Gunslinger, some players might prefer sticking to an 1858 Revolvers start since it would still have a faster reload speed and rate of fire than the Winchester, even though the Winchester deals 80 damage and can penetrate zeds. The suggestion for new Tier 1 weapons is supposed to be alternate starts that are neither advantageous or disadvantageous towards the player and the associated weapons will always be available at the trader regardless of prestige level. Some weapons like the Pipe Gun that i suggested could also be heavier than their prestige 0 counterparts so as to also provide a mobility disadvantage.

        In fact, i think i might copy-paste the breakdown of my suggested weapons from the Steam forums

        Pipe Gun: If you have ever used the Katana before the SWAT update, you'll know that it was only a marginal upgrade from the Knife, with the main draw of it being that Medics could parry scrakes and fleshpounds. Melee damage for the pipe gun would be closer to that, albeit with the added functionality of a single-use shotgun that reloads just as fast as the DBS. This may be useful against Gorefiends, though one shotgun shell won't make a difference against husks despite the increased damage and from my experience, bludgeoning weapons are less effective against bloats than slashing weapons. The addition of shotgun shells means that you'd probably be looking at a 5 or 6 block weapon, which could adversely affect the mobility of Zerkers using Dreadnought. For the Support perk, the extra melee damage would likely be an upgrade from the Machete, though the main guys you'll end up struggling with will probably end up being rioters, since the SG-500 can just three-shot them in the legs, whereas the pipegun would require you to fidget with the single-shot/reload issue of a slamfire shotgun.

        SAP-6 Shotgun: Sure, you have a pump action shotgun with a 6 round magazine, though the usage of shotgun slugs means that you're losing a lot of splash damage, making this gun much less effective against clots than the HX-25. Even if you land consistent headshots, 3 meters is a smaller AoE than what the grenade pistol gives. However, the effective range of the demolitionist increases, so there's that factor of a tradeoff.

        Wrist bow: There goes a lot of your trash killing power that the Medic Pistol provides. Additionally, the fact that your Medic Darts are used as crossbow arrows means that the ammo used for killing zeds is ammo not used for healing. I can see this actually being heavier than the Medic Pistol, too.

        Flare Gun: A 1 round magazine means that the Firebug loses his wave 1 trash cleaning power, but hey. At least he can headshot bloats and gorefasts. I hope you're good with your knife. Think of it as something similar to the M203, albeit with less damage and ground fires. For the Demolitionist, this is probably also the closest thing to the single-shot grenade they want for the HX-25, though this also means that Destroyer of Worlds is less effective.

        Alternate Commando T1: My suggestion for a "Pocket Rocket" for Commando pretty much means that Wave 1 will be a knife wave since the full auto + higher damage has the downside of a significant ammo decrease.

        Lever Action Rifle: Already in the game. For Gunslingers, you'll be trading rate of fire and reload speed for damage and penetration

        HMTECH101 Medic Pistol: Already in the game. For Gunslingers, 20 damage means you're much less effective against gorefasts and bloats, but hey. At least you can heal your teammates.

        HX-25 Grenade Pistol: Already in the game. We already know how good this weapon is with Whirlwind of Lead, though the lack of Extra Rounds means that the Gunslinger will have significantly less ammo than the Demolitionist

        AR-15 Varmint Rifle: Already in the game. If this becomes a SWAT cross-perk, he will be trading full auto and max ammo capacity for damage vs. medium zeds.
        Last edited by flashn00b; 12-06-2018, 11:06 AM.

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        • #5
          It's really weird we haven't got any new T1 at all. I know absolutely nothing about the inner workings of video games, but would it be that hard to implement the possibility the choose which gun you start with?


          Gunslinger: I'm not very big on the flaregun and HX-25 for the old 'slinger, but I use the LAR so damn often that it's pretty much officially it's T1 now (and T2...and T3...). I'd definitely love to see it implemented.

          Pipe Gun: The issue with the Pipe Gun is that I don't see how it would fit the zerk playstyle AT ALL. Yes, he still has the vlad for some reasons, but that's probably a left-over from the time he was supposed to be the "homemade" perk rather than the melee-centric one... Other than that, sure. I'd love the design of such a weapon.

          Sap-6 : A shotgun that's NOT meant for the support?! It's pretty much the antithesis of the sharpshooter, unless it shoots slugs but then...how would it fit the demolitionist? I'd say pick a side or the other. The shotgun itself however? Looks cool.

          Wrist bow : I believe it would be too quirky even for killing floor. Plus it's not as if the regular crossbow was as popular as it was in the first game anyway.

          Throwing knives : While not a bad weapon per se, I just don't know how you would justify a ridiculous amount of knives in your pockets (like the RPG rockets maybe??). I would see that as an alternative GRENADE to be honest.

          Flaregun : My main gripe with that gun is that it serves no purpose besides spawning with a toned-down version of the husk cannon. That's nooot exactly a great selling point as it would certainly be discarded as soon as you get the spitfire anyway.

          Commando: So kind of a gyro-jet weapon, or really just a high-caliber rifle? Again, besides having an early FAL, I don't really get excited for such an idea.

          SWAT: Well, why not? I'm not a huge fan of the Varmint AT ALL. But I also see no reason to be against it's inclusion in the SWAT's arsenal.

          Comment


          • #6
            To even further clarify...

            The pipe gun is intended to be a pair of dual-wielded cudgels that can fire a shotgun blast with Melee Bash. Think of it as sort of that "bringing pocket sand to a sword fight" weapon, except the pocket sand is 00 buck. They're still a pair of lead pipes. The fact that it's a melee weapon for Support should indicate that it's better against clots and Stalkers than the SG-500 (Especially if you have Tight Choke), though the one-round magazine can adversely affect its usefulness against certain enemy types. How Zerker would handle these pipes, they'll probably be useful against gorefiends and Bloats or if you can line up a bunch of clots for a shotgun kill, use it as a personal medkit.

            My suggestion for the SAP6 is to load it with explosive ammo that gains an increased blast radius on headshots

            I can see the Flaregun being somewhat popular on Demo due to the demand for a single shot mode for the HX25
            Last edited by flashn00b; 12-07-2018, 04:25 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by flashn00b View Post

              I do not know if "alternate tier 1 weapons" would be considered advantageous if you were to prestige, since it'd be more like an "apples and oranges" sort of scenario.
              Considering that "different tier 1" would have to be balanced such that it WON'T be advantageous for this statement to hold, this alternative then goes on to be completely purposeless (since a different tier 1 would only be different in action or cosmetically different, if their firepower are balanced to be "not different").

              I say if anyone wants an alternate tier 1, either TWI puts it up in the shop for everyone, or simply allow it from the start (i.e. no prestige requirement, the options are just there in the menu). Point being that one shouldn't feel compelled to prestige if they don't want to, tying an alternate tier 1 to prestige is detrimental to the player experience of the subgroup which don't (want to) bother with prestige.
              Last edited by TheAphabet; 12-06-2018, 01:08 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheAphabet View Post

                Considering that "different tier 1" would have to be balanced such that it WON'T be advantageous for this statement to hold, this alternative then goes on to be completely purposeless (since a different tier 1 would only be different in action or cosmetically different, if their firepower are balanced to be "not different").

                I say if anyone wants an alternate tier 1, either TWI puts it up in the shop for everyone, or simply allow it from the start (i.e. no prestige requirement, the options are just there in the menu). Point being that one shouldn't feel compelled to prestige if they don't want to, tying an alternate tier 1 to prestige is detrimental to the player experience of the subgroup which don't (want to) bother with prestige.
                Yes, plus it's not as if there were many things to do when you hit level 25... So better make it worth your while.

                Comment


                • #9
                  But yeah, I feel like the whole idea of "Prestige to unlock the Starting Weapon drop-down menu" will be the the difference between Dual 1858s, the Lever Action, HX-25 and the Medic Pistol; they're all solid options for the Gunslinger with neither gun having a clear advantage over another.

                  Additionally, people who are at Prestige 0 will always be able to buy the "prestige-locked" weapons at the trader anyways and for some perks, this can be a welcome stopgap towards a higher tier perk weapon.
                  Last edited by flashn00b; 12-07-2018, 04:51 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by flashn00b View Post
                    Additionally, people who are at Prestige 0 will always be able to buy the "prestige-locked" weapons at the trader anyways and for some perks, this can be a welcome stopgap towards a higher tier perk weapon.
                    Which circles back to the same issue of
                    1. prestiged people should not have an advantage over people without prestige, and
                    2. balancing starter weapons so it is only cosmetically/operationally different, but not any more powerful defeats the purpose

                    Which considering items 1 and 2, there is just inherently more utility in giving everyone the option (with or without prestige) for alternate starters, or putting it up in the shop.

                    If one does not feel incentivized to prestige for cosmetics and a snazzy perk badge, the no brainer solution is "then don't". For the most part, people who prestige either like the challenge or believe the cosmetic is sufficient incentive. Those who don't-- just don't.

                    There is no reason to artificially re-weigh the system, while throwing away potential starter weapons that have to be balanced in such a way it does not give prestiged players advantage.
                    Last edited by TheAphabet; 12-07-2018, 07:43 PM.

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