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Making the case for a better Thompson

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  • Making the case for a better Thompson

    Well, its here. And something's not right about it. Pretty much everyone can agree on that. What isn't quite agreed upon is what should be done. Seems quite a few want it to be SWAT only to balance it around them. I strongly disagree that this is the way to go about it, especially since it's already Crossperk from the get go. Starting as Crossperk only to take it away would upset more than it would please, but I do admit that balancing it right between the two classes is tricky. But then things had to get complicated by making it as weak as it is. Few people asked for another T2 for either class, but I never imagined that Tommy would fit the bill.

    Because it doesn't. No way. You cannot convince me that the century-old 50 round legend makes a good fit as a $650 weakling.

    I understand, it was this way in KF1, which was probably largely why it is the way it is now. But it also weighed 5 compared to the usual 6, and had up to 3 different Thompson variants. This effectively allowed a Commando to carry all 3 (provided they had DLC access to the other two) to provide the huge combined ammo pool and make the most of ammo pickups, all while being a highly effective setup against almost all Zed types save FPs and Patty. A Proto-SWAT build, if you will.

    But this is a different game. Much different, many will argue. Many of the former arsenal lineup has returned, but different. All the guns are much different, more polished, easier to use, and feel better. Commando thrives on ARs, while the SMG-using SWAT has come into its own. So where does that leave Tommy? Trying to please both, and feeling very out of place in its initial attempt to do so.

    As said before, quite a few would rather see SWAT get the Thompson exclusively for ease of balancing it out, but that seems to say nothing of how crap it currently is. Looking at it from the Commando side, Tommy is underwhelming even in an attempt to emulate its KF1 heyday - it was placed above the "Bullpup" back then, which was inaccurate, cruddy T1 rubbish, but now finds itself neck and neck with the improved L85A2. Both guns are the same weight and price, ok. But if the in-game tool tip is to be believed, both guns have identical damage, RoF and max ammo too. That's too many similarities, and did Commando really need another 30 damage gun? But wait, that's not all!

    If the post at https://forums.tripwireinteractive.c...2-weapon-stats is to be believed, the Tommy's RoF is actually -slower- than the L85 (600 RPM vs 660). I thought it just sounded slower (and it does, and terribly)! So all Tommy has going for it as a Commando is a huge mag (and admittedly good stumble power) at the cost of bizarrely strong recoil that makes it a pain to keep firing continuously. I expected strong recoil, but like something akin to the UMP. This is rediculous. On top of that, this seems to bring into play a disturbingly common misconception of people and games mixing the 1928 Thompson and the WW2 Thompson M1A1 and not keeping them separate. Visually, what we see and hold in game is the 1928. What it feels like and fires like the M1A1. Only the M1A1 variants tended to fire slowly at 600 RPM. Furthermore, they could not accept Drum magazines, only stick mags. Thus in an attempt to keep the gun at T2, this unfortunate choice was made, we got this strange ill-fitting hybrid where neither class really wins out.

    Speaking of which, lets get back to the SWAT side of this. The way some complain about the gun, they want it SWAT only so it becomes easy to balance around that class's weaponry. At the same time however, it makes it sound like they're fine keeping at T2, which is absurd for multiple reasons.

    1. It has the unenviable task of competing with the MP5 RAS. Why would you set Tommy up to fail so hard against T2 perfection? MP5 pristinely symbolizes everything SWAT wants and is - great RoF with unrivaled accuracy & control in full auto and a generous magazine, all in a lightweight package and reasonable price. Even Offperk, it's smooth as butter. Any SWAT wanting more T2 options are just setting themselves up for disappointment. It doesn't get better, and it won't.

    2. What's Tommy got to offer over the MP5? 10 more base rounds won't mean jack if you're missing at LEAST that much - after all, SWAT can't mitigate that crazy recoil so well. And why IS the recoil so wild for such a slow firing gun? Sure, it does 25% more damage than the MP5, but so does the P90. P90's got the big mag, too. AND the MP5's ease of use, as well. In fact, the P90 is the combined result of both of those guns - MP5's rapid speed and pinpoint performance, and Tommy's bulky mag and hitting power. Split P90 up downstream, and we have our current T2 situation - The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. And for clarification the HM-201 is the Bad, but it means well and isn't really here to compete, so I let it slide. The Tommy's just Ugly right now, especially compared to the other main T3 option, which brings us to.....

    3. .....the UMP .45. This is what's got me slapping my head in frustration. In what universe is an UMP going to outdo the 1928? The UMP is basically an improved, lightweight Thompson M1A1. They fire the same round, at the same RoF, and is confined to 20/25/30 round stick mags. Yet I'm supposed to believe that the original OG with its 50/100 round drum mags can't hold a candle to this. Because that's the current case, apparently. UMP hits almost 50% harder than its spiritual ancestor, is much easier to control (although recoil by SMG standards is still significant), and sounds WAY more like a Tommy than.........whatever this is pop gun sound is. It also has that nice EoTech holo for improved sighting, but I'm not about to suggest custom Picatinnys on ancient tech, that'd make everyone go WTF and I'd flip my lid myself. In instances of modern deployment and tactical advantage, naturally the UMP would win out. But this isn't a covert operation. This is the St. Valentines Day Massacre, every couple of minutes, which Tommy should win by a clear margin. Something must be done.


    The end result:

    Give up on any attempt to make this T2. Tommy's a big man, with big dreams, fat cigars, big lights and fine dames, and too big to waste on such smalltime. It's just going to leave a foul taste in everyone's mouth. By raising its pricetag and Tier placement, its power and characteristics can be properly elevated to resemble the real deal.

    Commandos don't want an L85 sidegrade copycat. We want a meatier compromise between the Stoner and the SCAR. SWATs don't want a watered down Virgin that clumsily fumbles around while the Chad MP5 effortlessly beheads fools from twice the range. We want a new T4 - something that can hold its own against the uncatchable DPS of the Vector. While it still wouldn't compare completely -what can, really-, the Kriss is an insatiable monster that craps out mags like no one's business and its ultimate strength is also what hampers it with constant fits of reloading and screaming "FEED ME, SEYMOUR!"

    In contrast, Tommy would happily don its fedora and go to town with a bigger mag, bigger rounds, and a fast, but not blistering RoF, reloading much less often and keeping you in the action. And it would indeed need harder hitting rounds, because its .45 ACP. It's .45, and its all its ever been. To see its damage being matched by multiple proven 9mm options and every 5.56 NATO option on the roster against soft flesh and bone puts a frown on ol' Cagney and Edward G. Heck, Kriss is 9mm, and still does 10% more damage!

    Recommendation:

    To say Tommy needs a buff is an understatement. A complete overhaul is necessary. I think my suggested stats from half a year ago are a good starting point, go from there. Keep it somewhere in the AK12-UMP damage range, raise the RoF up. 800 RPM is an ideal high RoF for a 1928 Thompson. Recoil will definitely need to be reeled in somewhat, but that's an easy tweak. Ammo pool will need an increase, way more than the 300 it's at now. That's just a few reloads in most cases for either class. At least we got the 50 round mag, so one less thing to worry about.

    40-42 Damage, maybe 30% less recoil than its currently at, 800 RPM, suggested ammo pool of 450. T4, $1500, obviously.
    UMP damage in a rapid fire package and a big box. That's what Tommy's always been, so why kid ourselves? Let it fly free and give SWAT something real for Christmas.

    And if the current stats threaten to outclass the Stoner a bit, just jack its damage up 10% to 33 to compensate. It's not seeing much use these days anyways.


  • #2
    I'm not sure why it needs to remain cross-perk; KF1 didn't have a SWAT perk, but KF2 does, and the Thompson was a powerful sub-machine gun, not an assault rifle. Commando already has plenty of guns, whereas SWAT does not - why not just have it exclusive to SWAT, buff it, and have it as a very powerful but inaccurate tier 2/3 weapon?
    [I]I'm that weird Medic on your team who goes after Husks with a scalpel.[/I]

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    • #3
      Yeah the Tommy is certainly in a sad state at tier 2, it should be at tier 4 as a substained DPS alternative to the Vector and a middle-of-the-road alternative to the Stoner and SCAR-H. Below is the stats i'd give a tier 4 Tommy (some of these stats are the same as the current Tommy).

      Damage: 45
      RoF: 757
      Magazine: Still 50
      Weight: 6
      Recoil: 33% less then the current recoil
      Accuracy: 68 (slightly less accurate then all other SMGs, because it's an old gun and was known to be somewhat inaccurate irl)
      Reload Speed: The current reload speed is fine
      Gunhit/Stumble power: 40/25
      Cost: 1400 (slightly cheaper then the Vector, because the vector has a much higher DPS)
      Starting Ammo pool: 50 + 150
      Max ammo pool: 400
      Cost per mag: $50
      Last edited by RaNdOmKiLs666; 11-11-2018, 01:45 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Vapid View Post
        I'm not sure why it needs to remain cross-perk; KF1 didn't have a SWAT perk, but KF2 does, and the Thompson was a powerful sub-machine gun, not an assault rifle. Commando already has plenty of guns, whereas SWAT does not - why not just have it exclusive to SWAT, buff it, and have it as a very powerful but inaccurate tier 2/3 weapon?
        It's crossperk because of its KF1 legacy tie in. Rather than wonder why both classes get it, should be asking why the AR-15 isn't the same crossperk more - these SWAT and Commando aren't that differen't. Surely there are certain points where a weapon or two can fit the gap between the classes well. I mean, Commandos got a taste of the FN FAL, which absolutely no one expected for sure to cross with SS, and one can tell that it was built AROUND the SS as well. And yet they nailed the balance well on. The result got us something we never thought would happen - Commandos got a weapon with Penetration, and SS got a full auto option. All bets are off as what to expect.

        Why settle for a lower tier weapon when you could get some real extra firepower in a new endgame gun? Give it the full treatment, and SWATs can enjoy their own powerhouse on par with the FAL. The MKb.42 didn't seem to fit right as a T4 as it originally was, so they toned it down to T3 after gauging player input. Everyone's wanting this thing to change, and it's got a real chance to be a superstar. Besides, of the guns that were "added" through crossperks already, HM-201's already a T2, MAC-10's T3 (although really just an MP5 with Fire damage), and the UMP from lastChristmas is T3.5 as well.

        So now SWATs have 3 T2s, 3 T3s, and Kriss stands alone at the top. And for some reason, lots of people think this is fine? It almost seems like they're hurting their own purpose. SWAT's been overdue for some more power for some time now. UMP gets some use, but it's eventually a choice between it and the P90, and I think many go with the latter. The MAC-10 doesn't see much use from SWAT, because panicky Zeds works against your headshots.

        Making the Tommy T2 and settling for it is like GS finally getting the MK.23s only to find that they're T2 with 60% of the M1911's damage, resulting in roughly identical damage output, despite firing the same round and having 50% Bigger mags - a completely pointless sidegrade. Don't settle for mediocrity. Just because it's an SMG doesn't mean it can't make a dent. Is it really so farfetched to think that you could have a 2nd T4 at your side, with enough space for an HM-201 in the end?
        Last edited by Servalion; 11-11-2018, 01:02 AM.

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        • #5
          I'd honestly prefer more tier 2 weapons, as long as the upgrade scaling made them competitive with tier 4 options. With the upgrade system in place, I'd expect there to be more tier 2s, especially since every weapon's upgrade scaling is completely different from the next, which should make it easier to balance and make it competitive with tier 4s/5s.

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          • #6
            I'm not sure why it needs to remain cross-perk
            But it could be!
            The Gunslinger could use an automatic.

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            • #7
              Let us agree to disagree on yet another T4 weapon... Not only am I a bit bugged when old-time weapons are higher-tiered than brand new guns (or even sci-fi ones), but we're in dire need of more early options... for pretty much every perk (safe for the firebug and zerk maybe?)

              HOWEVER, it definitely should be packing more punch than the MP5, at the price of losing the drum mag maybe. Except if it becomes super inaccurate... But then we'd have to work for a better iron sight. Because the one we got right now is awful.

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              • #8
                IMHO, I feel like the Thompson could function as a Tier 5 weapon for the SWAT with no bonuses for the Commando. I mean, sure, the Thompson in its current state feels like a solid Tier 2 option (75 bullets worth of trash clearing? Hard to disagree with that), though if you look at the SWAT's current set of weapons, I figured the Tommy Gun would logically be a Tier 5 weapon since it uses the same ammunition as the TDI Vector, but can sport a 100-round magazine in real life.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MrRogersBestNeighbor View Post
                  I'd honestly prefer more tier 2 weapons, as long as the upgrade scaling made them competitive with tier 4 options. With the upgrade system in place, I'd expect there to be more tier 2s, especially since every weapon's upgrade scaling is completely different from the next, which should make it easier to balance and make it competitive with tier 4s/5s.
                  Oh, so that's why people want more early weapons. They're hinging too much on the current upgrade system. Here's the problem, though - it's not going to last like this. Players already spoke up, and they're not exactly content with it. It's just a simple, streamlined system to pay to make a weapon heavier and do more damage. This works well for some weapons, but not others.

                  People want real upgrades, like bigger capacity, lowered recoil, better handling, RoF changes, stuff like that. Maybe one option that increases damage once. TWI has acknowledged this and reminded us that the current system is a work in progress. That was half a year ago. I and others were almost expecting Upgrades 2.0 this update, but it looks like it'll take more time. Maybe in the Spring. But this is why making guns intentionally weak with the premise of relying on the Upgrade system to make them stronger may soon backfire.

                  On top of that, you're talking about upgrading a T2 that already weighs 6. That means it'll be a hefty 9 at T5, leaving only enough room for a base Vector.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Aleflippy View Post
                    Let us agree to disagree on yet another T4 weapon... Not only am I a bit bugged when old-time weapons are higher-tiered than brand new guns (or even sci-fi ones), but we're in dire need of more early options... for pretty much every perk (safe for the firebug and zerk maybe?)

                    HOWEVER, it definitely should be packing more punch than the MP5, at the price of losing the drum mag maybe. Except if it becomes super inaccurate... But then we'd have to work for a better iron sight. Because the one we got right now is awful.
                    Man, I wish I knew how to quote multiple people in the same post....


                    Now I can't say that every class needs more early or even late options. As frustrating as it may be, it'll be difficult to load up the arsenal for some roles. It's easy to pick and choose from a wealth of already existing weapons (ARs, SMGs, Shotguns, Rifles, Handguns, Physical melee), but considerably more difficult when you have to get creative and inventive (remaining classes). Explosives are many but heavy, there's only so many ways to offensively set things on fire well, and at the end of the day, who's always destined to draw the short end of the loadout stick? Medics.

                    I still don't see it as T2, so I guess we'll indeed agree to disagree. How can anyone justify making the Chopper worse than the UMP? The UMP, man, the UMP....

                    The Drum mag is here to stay, though. Reducing it at this point would be even more immersion breaking than it already is -30 rounds, but appears to have a drum? No way that'd fly, and we already know they won't redo or alter finished models for sights or Upgrades, so they won't do it for this. Well, maybe. I don't think so, but maybe. Sighting down the gun does take up a lot of the screen, I admit, but I find that's only really an issue if you're doing a 180 while ironsighted and are now obscuring the Crawler/Stalker/Slasher that you let sneak up on you already. I think the drum mag was always going to stick out, so unless they bring the gun really close to your eyes, I don't see that changing much.

                    But just because a gun is newer doesn't necessarily mean its more powerful. The modern premise is providing considerable power and tactical support in a managable, sometimes compact package. But go back an century or so, and convenience of use was hardly even a thought yet. Thompson wouldn't even have the Cutts compensator until the mid 20s. It was all about rapid power. Automatics were the new fashion on the street. Tommy, the BAR and the Auto-5 ruled the day, and connected criminals were even getting their Colt handguns modified for auto fire with big stocks. Accuracy and control be damned. Those guns brought the power, but hurt to use for long.

                    Solid, wooden stocks were unforgiving on the shoulder, and that's if you could lift them that high for long - they were heavy as hell by today's standards. The weight only somewhat served to offset the significant recoil most gave as these guns came before virtually all modern innovations. If Commandos got the BAR, it'd easily be T5. Why? Because (and I'm going to get so much flak for this) it was the SCAR of its day - up to 650 RPM of monstrous .30-06 power. A round slightly stronger and faster than 7.62x51 NATO which soldiers found effective and the likes of Bonnie & Clyde made infamous with its ability to chew through cars and cops alike. Combine that with pretty much nothing reducing recoil into a gun that weighed up to 20 points, and you'd have the shakiest, most unwieldly son of a gun in the lineup.

                    Tommy's heyday ended when the M3 Grease Gun came about, and later the M3A1. Both fired the same round, but Grease was compact, lightweight, simple and cheap to manufacture. It also only fired at a paltry 450 RPM. That's literally half the RoF as the MP5, and only 50% faster than the AA12. But the low shot rate brought a new level of control to the game, and made it satisfyingly easy to keep the gun on the mark. Sometimes moving on means giving up significant firepower, but it worked.

                    The M3A1 would be far more ideal as a T2 for SWAT instead - Offering meaty UMP damage with the .45 while being super slow to prevent recoil from being much of an issue yet. Then SWAT could have a natural line of progression of hard hitters if one so chose. M3 at T2, the established UMP mid ground at T3, and Tommy at T4. All 3 roughly the same damage range, mostly just increasing in RoF (and recoil) as you went up. C'mon, you can't tell me that doesn't sound like a solid plan.

                    Lastly, why scoff at the chance at another T4? Look around - SWAT is the last class besides Medic now to have one weapon at T4, and even they have a T5 now. Can you name any other SMG that'd be a sensible contender to stand toe to toe with the Kriss? We've got a chance for something real here. Lets not waste it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by flashn00b View Post
                      IMHO, I feel like the Thompson could function as a Tier 5 weapon for the SWAT with no bonuses for the Commando. I mean, sure, the Thompson in its current state feels like a solid Tier 2 option (75 bullets worth of trash clearing? Hard to disagree with that), though if you look at the SWAT's current set of weapons, I figured the Tommy Gun would logically be a Tier 5 weapon since it uses the same ammunition as the TDI Vector, but can sport a 100-round magazine in real life.
                      Hmm, you think it could be T5? I thought that might be pushing it, but its possible if the RoF was high enough.

                      That misconception about our Kriss is common though - I'm pretty sure ours is the 9mm variant. Only the 9mm offers the 33 round mag, while .45 ACP offers up to 25 (with optional mag extension conversion kits).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What about tweaking the current one for the SWAT, and adding this one for the commando?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CrimsoN_Samurai View Post
                          What about tweaking the current one for the SWAT, and adding this one for the commando?
                          That's also a good solution, and one that would make far more sense. Would even fit in with the KF1 theme, while spacing both Tommys apart. But like the Grease Gun, that'd mean the addition of yet another gun, which would take more resources and time.

                          If the current Tommy is relegated for T2 for now, it could always be moved up in tier later when a more appropriate low tier option gets added in.
                          Last edited by Servalion; 11-11-2018, 11:11 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            How about we just give the Commando a rest for now? He received THREE new weapons last time, and yet another one with the cross-perked Thompson.

                            As it is, it should sleep the next update (if not the next TWO)

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                            • #15
                              Reposting myself from the update thread:

                              I tried out the Thompson, and have to say I'm disappointed. The firing sound is anemic and the rate of fire is way too slow. Right now, it performs just like the UMP but with 30 instead of 45 damage. It's also heavier.

                              My recommendation:

                              Change the UMP to a tier 2 with 30 damage and the Thompson's higher stumble power.
                              Make the Thompson a tier 3 and increase its fire rate to 960RPM. Increase max ammo and reload time. Recoil becomes harder to control.

                              Then, the Thompson is an alternative to the P90 with more stumble and DPS, but worse handling. With that change and a better sound effect, the Thompson will feel much better to use. It would also be more unique as a commando weapon, since most of them have a fire rate of around 600 anyway.

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