Melee combat

[bass361]

Not sure if anyone has brought up the idea of combos, but i think itd be a cool idea. Like 3 quick attacks then a hard attack allows you to do a harder hitting attack or something like that.

Something to mix it up a little. Zerk is pretty boring to me personally.

 

[s5yn3t]

So basically hold mouse 1 for a couple of seconds and then m2 for a heavy attack for the combo you just described?

 

[taiiat]

i generally despise """"combos"""" in Melee Combat systems. because it always ends up being button mashing or you have no reason to not attack in this one particular way forever.
a toolbox and you do what is appropriate for the situation is how you make Melee Combat that ISN'T super boring.

adding more tools to Melee Combat? why not i guess. but avoid """"combos"""" like a plague. it never helps.

 

[Aleflippy]

I doubt combos really work outside of fighting games... I mean, there's not a whole lot of things you can do with a mouse, and doing the exact same combo all the time would be redundant anyway.

 

[bass361]

I've always felt the Zerk needed more design in the actual combat. When I play I mostly just sit and spam left click with a rare right click if I'm feeling cocky.

It'd actually be a kin to the head shot multiplayer the Gunslinger has, at least the way it's in my head. A string of combos that will make you do more damage over time that makes the overall combat much more interactive and entertaining.

Maybe an example of how this could work is making you damage increase every time you use a different type of attack until you eventually run out of options then your damage gets reset to base when you repeat an attack.

Perhaps this could be a choice in the skill tree so it is not forced on people who like the current system.

 

[s5yn3t]

That just sounds clunky, as you'd have to use 3 types of attacks sequentially to gain the bonus.
not to mention that in your idea it would reset on a repeat making it even less worth while.

 

[mrnok14l]

Not sure if anyone has brought up the idea of combos, but i think itd be a cool idea. Like 3 quick attacks then a hard attack allows you to do a harder hitting attack or something like that.

Something to mix it up a little. Zerk is pretty boring to me personally.

We already have a system of variety in the existing melee system where you'll do different type of attack as you move into different direction, though I'll agree that they are functionally largely meaningless - because a frontal attack that's most likely to hit Zed's vulnerability (head) is generally the most useful one, the second most useful one being the horizontal slashes to deal with 2 maybe 3 Zeds at once.

As for the uppercut type that's usually commenced out of a backward movement is completely meaningless - as it doesn't even deal more reaction/hit/stumble power (despite that would convincingly coincide with the back-away intention behind said movement), except I often find myself doing anyway probably because it looks like I'm literally shoveling the trash otta my wae!

 

[bass361]

We already have a system of variety in the existing melee system where you'll do different type of attack as you move into different direction, though I'll agree that they are functionally largely meaningless - because a frontal attack that's most likely to hit Zed's vulnerability (head) is generally the most useful one, the second most useful one being the horizontal slashes to deal with 2 maybe 3 Zeds at once.

As for the uppercut type that's usually commenced out of a backward movement is completely meaningless - as it doesn't even deal more reaction/hit/stumble power (despite that would convincingly coincide with the back-away intention behind said movement), except I often find myself doing anyway probably because it looks like I'm literally shoveling the trash otta my wae!

Yes I understand that we "Have" a variety of melee attacks, but Zerk is still just a Mouse 1 / 2 spam. There is nothing skill based about it, and that's the hard truth. From a strictly objective view point the zerker class is Simple, and imo very boring and why I'm posting to begin with. I want to see this Perk thrive like I know it can.

 

[taiiat]

every other perk is also spamming one or two buttons.
see how silly that sounds now?

 

[Aleflippy]

every other perk is also spamming one or two buttons.
see how silly that sounds now?

If you're spamming, you're doing it wrong.

 

[TheAphabet]

The issue is that gun perks are incomparable to the melee perk in terms of the inputs involved during game play.

The cycle of guns is simply: aim, shoot, reload; whereas melee usually leaves something more to be desired.

Monster Hunter World for example, perfectly encapsulates these two different mentalities: ranged weapons follow the same cycle of aim, shoot, reload, whereas melee weapons are more involved in combos to determine what outcome of attack pattern the player desires. The latter gives each attack more weight because the order matters, and proficiency is rewarded by a smooth flow of combos and extra damage, so that there is incentive to be precise with the execution of attacks (analogously, it is similar to how Sharpshooters have incentive to be accurate with their shots).

So I'll say that the Berserker's game loop would be more rewarding if there is more complexity to the combo system, especially since the perk would attract like-minded players, and people who don't like such complexities would've just played the gun perks anyway. Frankly, before the release of KF2, I was hoping that the Berserker was the "general whammo perk" for people who cannot care less, whereas the Urban Ninja/Martial Artist would've been the "combo-wombo perk".

 

[taiiat]

The issue is that gun perks are incomparable to the melee perk in terms of the inputs involved during game play.

The cycle of guns is simply: aim, shoot, reload; whereas melee usually leaves something more to be desired.



Monster Hunter World for example, perfectly encapsulates these two different mentalities: ranged weapons follow the same cycle of aim, shoot, reload, whereas melee weapons are more involved in combos to determine what outcome of attack pattern the player desires. The latter gives each attack more weight because the order matters, and proficiency is rewarded by a smooth flow of combos and extra damage, so that there is incentive to be precise with the execution of attacks (analogously, it is similar to how Sharpshooters have incentive to be accurate with their shots).

no, they are exactly comparable. your complaint is that you don't have to press enough buttons to play. well you don't have to press very many buttons to play the game, period.
Killing Floor is not DDR, playing it is not about memorizing some lock combinations and reciting them. you have tools, and you apply them.


Ranged Weapons in Monster Hunter trade memorizing lock combinations for managing Ammo Types, maintaining the Optimal Range to hit the Weakpoints you're trying to currently hit, and an increased need to pay attention to Mobility.
you're not juggling buttons, but you still have plenty to do.
don't try to suggest that Ranged Weapons are nothing and that Melee Weapons need to make you memorize chemical formulas in order to provide a variety of tools.

 

[TheAphabet]

no, they are exactly comparable. your complaint is that you don't have to press enough buttons to play. well you don't have to press very many buttons to play the game, period.
Killing Floor is not DDR, playing it is not about memorizing some lock combinations and reciting them. you have tools, and you apply them.


Ranged Weapons in Monster Hunter trade memorizing lock combinations for managing Ammo Types, maintaining the Optimal Range to hit the Weakpoints you're trying to currently hit, and an increased need to pay attention to Mobility.
you're not juggling buttons, but you still have plenty to do.
don't try to suggest that Ranged Weapons are nothing and that Melee Weapons need to make you memorize chemical formulas in order to provide a variety of tools.

That is misconstrued, my precise complaint is that the melee combat can do better in player engagement, in the same vein as survival games such as MHW, Dying Light and Shadow Warrior 2, all which feature a semblance of melee combos since melee is a primary alternative (i.e. not a side option) to ranged weapons.

Your analysis on ranged weapons in MHW ironically highlights the difference between ranged and melee weapons. Players in MHW of ranged weapons have to worry about a completely different set of problems than melee weapons, whereas melee players are concerned about the flow of attacks (i.e. combos), landing blows, dodging, blocks (if available) and counterattacks (if available). So no, they are not at all comparable game play mechanics, but they are designed to be equally engaging in MHW.

For example, the parry mechanic in KF2 is FUN, since parrying is a direct involvement of players in timing and reaction. "Parrying" is what the game loop in KF2 melee combat should feel like; Providing melee players with a variety of options in executing attacks or reactions (i.e. counters), each with its own outcomes and payoffs, is a more rewarding game play loop than mashing RMB/LMB while facing a direction (ala KF1) and hope everything just dies. Moreover, it gives weight to each press of a button because some thought went into it, just like when deciding to perform a parry.

[tl;dr] You seem to be more concerned about making the statement that "hey, we ranged players have a lot to worry about, mkay", but my point is that melee players don't have much going on, and parrying is the only thrill I get from KF2's melee system since it is an involving process; however, the actual melee combat itself is as good as watching a Youtube video of someone else pressing RMB/LMB in combat, because the mind is just not into it.

---
[EDIT] In all fairness to TWI, there is indeed a melee mechanic in KF2, but it is usually incidental than reactionary, i.e. walking backwards+M2 results in an upper-cut attack, but players don't consciously perform an upper-cut (it usually just-so-happens that they are walking backwards).

 

[s5yn3t]

Only issue is that you can't really create new combos in the game due to the lack of available inputs.
It would require creating a totally seperate input window for bers alone.... Which honestly wouldn't be a bad idea.
That way you could also introduce Kick into the gameplay and FOR GODS SAKE, BE ABLE TO PUT A SAFE SWITCH INTO THE PULVERIZER, SO IT WOULD BE FINALLY USEFUL AS A GIANT HAMMER WITHOUT THE NEED OF WAISTING AMMO.

 

[TheAphabet]

Well, the additional inputs are not necessary, 5 existing inputs: WASD, LMB/RMB (or M1/M2), Space, Shift and alt-fire are sufficient to generate usable combinations. (although I do agree that the pulverizer needs a switch firing mode button).

Some examples are: "M1, M1, M1", "M1, M1, M2", "Shift + M1/M2" (charge attack), "Space, M2" (aerial slash), "alt-fire, M1/M2" (parry into counter), "S + Shift + Space" (backwards dodge).

The combos do not have to be too complex, but it has to be enough to engage the player's immersion which can be achieved by introducing an active role in which the outcome is rewarding if you put effort into it, much like the process of parrying attacks and learning how to do it. The cycle of playing melee should be satisfying like biting through a nice, thick burger and chewing through it, as opposed to sipping it out of a straw.

As it stands, the melee combat in KF2 involves selecting Smash or Massacre skills and mashing the corresponding M2 (if Smash) or M1 (if Massacre) throughout the rest of the match.
---

On the other hand, I understand the resistance against a combo-driven melee, because KF2 is a game of "mindless fun, destruction and gore", and a melee combo system isn't some people's definition of that. Which is why the Urban Ninja/Martial Artist perks made a lot of sense, because you can introduce a different play style for melee (much like the variety of alternatives in gun Perks) which is "high learning curve but high reward"-- Uncombo'd attacks deal mediocre damage, but combos and good timing can affect the outcome of an encounter. The Berserker perk is retained, and the option is there for people who finds that style of game play engaging. Metaphorically, the Urban Ninja/Martial Artist would be to the Berserker like what the Sharpshooter is to SWAT.

 

[taiiat]

That is misconstrued, my precise complaint is that the melee combat can do better in player engagement, in the same vein as survival games such as MHW, Dying Light and Shadow Warrior 2, all which feature a semblance of melee combos since melee is a primary alternative (i.e. not a side option) to ranged weapons.

Providing melee players with a variety of options in executing attacks or reactions (i.e. counters), each with its own outcomes and payoffs, is a more rewarding game play loop than mashing RMB/LMB while facing a direction (ala KF1) and hope everything just dies.

it's funny that you mention Dying Light and Shadow Warrior, as Melee Combat in those games takes a similar state that it does in Killing Floor. that you have a variety of direction based tools, that are all useful because directions are important in these games.

your description of Melee Combat in Killing Floor being a Macro on a single button... would have to describe your undesire to seek better options, not that the game isn't providing them. you're saying you want options to Min/Max, then simultaneously saying you don't care about Min/Maxing because if you just deal some Damage here and there, the Enemy eventually dies and so why do anything other than that if you can still Kill Enemies in any capacity.

so if i take what you're saying as a whole, you dislike Melee Combat because you have a variety of tools, and instead want to be forced to attack in a particular way or be unable to Kill anything. you could even describe such a situation as a pseudo QTE.
i.... don't like Melee Combat that tries to write a check it can't cash like that. i want a toolbox and for it to be left up to me, the Player, to do the playing and decision making.





now, there are a few example attacks you give that are toolbox-like enough to not remove current options and replacing them with pretend Cutscenes.
such as the attack while in the air(as long as that wouldn't interfere with attacking while jumping as we can currently do).
some others already exist though, such as your 'charge attack'. you already do that. you perform your attack at high speed, and that's already quite tactically useful (for Heavy Attacks, mainly).
while some others are the exact things i despise about Melee Combat in most games. ala repeated attacks change the attack which means there will be situations that in order to attack correctly you need to stop attacking entirely for half a second (or more, god forbid) to wait for the timer to expire so you can do the right attack. except that time you were forced to do nothing is..... a really bad thing.

instead, i counter as an ideal example of Melee Combat looking to another game, as Mordhau.
which if you do look into, it has """combos""" but, what that means in Mordhau is just that if you use tools (any) repeatedly, that your actions blend together without having to stop before staring the next. it does not change what your tools do, just blends them together. so if you perform 3 different actions back to back, it's not different than if you used each one and stopped between. it's just blended.
this is such a crucial difference. tools should be consistent.

 

[TheAphabet]

you could even describe such a situation as a pseudo QTE.

They are called "combos", the combo system have been integral to action games, and they are nothing like QTEs; combos are celebrated for bringing player involvement and variety into melee combat, QTE's are despised for bringing in unnecessary involvement during cut scenes.

Your ideal melee combat hinges on the idea that button presses should be inconsequential, there is no penalty to executing certain attacks or moves. Attacks which simply "blend into each other" lacks momentum and risk; mashing a random sequence of button does not constitute engaging gameplay because no forethought nor strategy goes into it. If you find this level of engagement fun and "decision making", that is fine, but to me it is simply mediocre melee combat because moves are interchangeable and inconsequential (i.e. penalty-less) to the player.

Then again, I was among the small subset of people who thought fixing the reload-canceling on Berserker's parry made the game better, since there was a consequence and trade-off between attacks and blocks. It gave weight to your attacks as a Berserker, because there was a real decision-fork between attacking or parrying at a given moment.

For you, melee, like ranged weaponry, is just another means to kill Zeds, it's only the destination that matters; for me, the journey matters as much as the destination, combos make combat interesting because it modifies the nature of attacks, and provide players with more control over the type of attacks they wish to execute at specific moments. Because outside of the binary choice of "light attacks" and "heavy attacks" in KF2, combos enable players in MHW, Dying Light and Shadow Warrior to execute a wider variety of attack moves with their own risks and payoffs. Sure you can mash buttons and hope for the best, but mastery of the combat system is necessary to bring out the best of a weapon, much like aiming skills are honed for Sharpshooters for best results.

The bigger the risks, the bigger the payoff, the more rewarding it feels to the player if the attack landed successfully. For illustration, a sledgehammer downward smash would (realistically) leave the player vulnerable for a brief moment due to the momentum of the sledgehammer, but landing a direct smash attack on a scrake is a significantly higher chance of stun and knockdown than regular heavy attacks; the "combo" can be as simple as "press and hold down M2", or "M1, (hold)M2". The current KF2 analogue to this is "select 'Smash' skill", "mash M2 until outcome is achieved", which is not exactly riveting combat even though "it delivers results".

 

[taiiat]

Your ideal melee combat hinges on the idea that button presses should be inconsequential, there is no penalty to executing certain attacks or moves. Attacks which simply "blend into each other" lacks momentum and risk; mashing a random sequence of button does not constitute engaging gameplay because no forethought nor strategy goes into it. If you find this level of engagement fun and "decision making", that is fine, but to me it is simply mediocre melee combat because moves are interchangeable and inconsequential (i.e. penalty-less) to the player.

games that aren't Winning Simulators have plenty of penalty for making the wrong actions with Melee Combat. whether that being dealing a lot less Damage than you potentially could be, taking hits that you could have prevented, being CC'ed when you could have prevented it - the list can be quite extensive. all as a natural part of Gameplay, without having to staple the results of your actions to your face. because the results are there either way.

again, your exact Dying Light and Shadow Warrior examples, don't havewhat your suggest to theoretically be so important. using your tools incorrectly causes a lot of problems. but those problems don't duplicate themselves to affect you twice. the negatives are always there, the games know that they don't need to add a negative when there already was one.



or if we go to the other end of the spectrum and you're saying that you want Dork Souls - Killing Floor shares little in common with that style of Combat, and so Animations are not several seconds long because neither are they for the Enemies.

 

[TheAphabet]

games that aren't Winning Simulators have plenty of penalty for making the wrong actions with Melee Combat. whether that being dealing a lot less Damage than you potentially could be, taking hits that you could have prevented, being CC'ed when you could have prevented it - the list can be quite extensive. all as a natural part of Gameplay, without having to staple the results of your actions to your face. because the results are there either way.

again, your exact Dying Light and Shadow Warrior examples, don't havewhat your suggest to theoretically be so important. using your tools incorrectly causes a lot of problems. but those problems don't duplicate themselves to affect you twice. the negatives are always there, the games know that they don't need to add a negative when there already was one.



or if we go to the other end of the spectrum and you're saying that you want Dork Souls - Killing Floor shares little in common with that style of Combat, and so Animations are not several seconds long because neither are they for the Enemies.

Therein lies the issue in the melee gameplay loop, wherein the danger is persistent but the risks are flat lined. If you consume ammunition too quickly, or aim too precariously, your career as a Sharpshooter is done for in that wave of enemies; but skipping a beat as Berserker (aside from parrying and blocks for reasons aforementioned in previous posts) incurs next to no cost because the combat is very forgiving. Low HP barely registers as a danger because you can outrun enemies, out-heal other Perks (except for Medics), and cannot be grabbed. The only real danger is the common danger of being surrounded, but even Berserkers have a higher chance of survival in that situation.

While simplifying combat input is quite ingenious on TWI's part to make it simple for players to jump-right-in, while still making an improvement over KF1-- the lack of a learning curve and active participation in melee combat (outside of parrying) makes playing Berserker monotonous for like-minded players. Combos in melee combat makes sense because it attempts to encapsulate a sense of active participation in melee combat irl-- that a left jab does not flow naturally into a left hook, but a left jab into a right hook does-- thus, players who want to be an adept melee combatant must attain some level of mastery first (... like parrying).

The examples of Dying Light and Shadow Warriors are applicable because they have a combo system which rewards players with different outcomes at the risk of wrong timing or wrong inputs, and more so in itself, "the combo system improves the gameplay by engaging players". The negatives are there from the start, correct, but the availability of combos modify the perception of danger because there is an active component which relies on the player's adequacy, especially on harder difficulties; much like aiming a rifle and landing all head shots or parrying successfully, melee combat should feel like a skill to be honed rather than a process that "just happens", i.e. "just going through the motions".

Imagine if the Railgun had unlimited ammo and permanent auto-aim which deals full damage all the time, plus headshots based on RNG, that is how it feels to play Berserker-- It can be amusing sure (and the baseline dangers still exists), but it is not quite exciting. The sense that "I can do better than this" is lost, because this is as good as it gets.

 

[s5yn3t]

So basically all we need is more variety of combos with new system added.
like kick (bash but with a foot + "back off" further effect), run kick, drop kick that will stumble a zed, slide kick to knockdown a zed.... With i guess some stamina added to it, so you wouldn't just kick everything 24/7, but rather manage it and use it when you are fighting something bigger.

But that would require of making new animations and adding an additional input.

Also funny, is that with this addition... We are basically making something of a martial artist with those mechanical fists that we got recently as a weapon.