Thoughts on new content in Beta 1069 (Halloween Update)

[xmrmeow]

Visually, most of Halloween skins look great. The only gameplay related issue I have is the DAR's little nub, left when you bust their head but don't actually fully destroy it, is like non-existant.

As for balance on the new guns:

• HMTech-501: A bigger supply of medic grenades is very strong. I haven't used it myself, but on paper the magazine/ammo capacity and damage looks about right. As commando you'd have a gun that does slightly less than an SCAR unupgraded but it can fire medic grenades and could have up to 75 magazine capacity.
• MKB42: It's got a few things higher and lower compared to the AK, which I think make it just as good in different ways (5/4 damage, 9/10 max ammo, 5/6 fire rate) and it has Single Fire instead of burst as the Alt. In my opinion burst is kinda bad in KF2 so I always prefer single-fire + full auto on assault rifles so this gun gets an OK for me.
• FNFal: It seems like an all around worse version of it's alternatives for both classes it's available for. The ammo pool is just over half that of the SCAR, yet the damage is like 20% higher. An upgraded SCAR, just for the ammo pool, has more than enough damage to last an entire wave with only that, even on higher difficulties like Suicidal and HoE, so for commando, it'd need to be stronger to compare.
  
  Now for Sharpshooter, it's no contest. The M14 is simply better. It is essentially a weaker (70 damage compared to 80) version of the M14, with the only advantage being the Full Auto option. This isn't really that good on SS though due to it only getting bonuses on headshots. In addition to this, the M14 can be upgraded twice for 30% bonus damage, where the FNFal caps out at +15% from 1 upgrade. Also the Fal is a T4, so it costs more, and upgrades cost more.
  
  Balancing for 2 perks is tricky, but it clearly feels like a T3 for the price of a T4. I think a good spot for both would be to increase it's damage to around 90 and increasing it's upgrade damage to 20%.
  
  This would give it damage more in line with other Tier 4s, potentially allowing a stationary scoped Sharpshooter to down a FP on HoE with 1 mag if every shot except 1 is a headshot.
  
  It'd also allow Commando to get 2 hit kills on bloats and 3 hit kills on Husks (SCAR kills bloat in 3 hits, Husk in 5 full upgrade with no damage perk skills), as well as kill a scrake with around 2/3 the ammo.
  
  These changes would make a good alternative option to its counterparts for both perks

What are your thoughts on these new weapons and the new zed skins?

 

[Althamus]

I'm in two minds about the HMTech501. On the one hand, more medinades is very useful, on the other being able to run out of them feels a bit sucky. I'd far prefer it if it had the medic recharge for the grenades, but it recharges very slowly to limit your grenade use.
Maybe it costs 20% to fire a grenade, and regens 20% per minute or something *numbers will need balancing.

So you can drop 3 grenades if you need to, but you better be prepared to wait for the regen.

 

[infntnub]

I'm in two minds about the HMTech501. On the one hand, more medinades is very useful, on the other being able to run out of them feels a bit sucky. I'd far prefer it if it had the medic recharge for the grenades, but it recharges very slowly to limit your grenade use.
Maybe it costs 20% to fire a grenade, and regens 20% per minute or something *numbers will need balancing.

So you can drop 3 grenades if you need to, but you better be prepared to wait for the regen.

The nade regen idea is pretty brilliant TBH.

 

[PurpleFanta]

Nade regen would be immensely overpowered. It's endless ammo that kills enemies. If it didnt that'd be different.

 

[CARDUSH]

The nade regen idea is pretty brilliant TBH.

+1 totally agree

 

[TheAphabet]

Disagree with medic grenade regeneration, I think the extension over the previous maximum of 5 (thrown grenades) is already a game changing point, being that one is able to heal 6 people simultaneously in one go. One may argue that the regen rate will balance things out, but if you are using medic-grenades solely for offensive purposes, I argue that you are doing it wrong.

 

[simplecat]

Don't really like 501, honestly. Same reason as M16 - too much reloading on top of constant weapon swapping. Sometimes you just want to heal a slightly injured person with one single dart and you have to swap your weapon because it would a waste of grenade. I wish there was a version with regular darts. It also looks like a toy, all Medic weapons do, but this one especially.

Mkb so far is my fav, i do love slow firing weapons with decent damage per bullet. FN FAL is cool too, although i think it needs more ammo like + 3-4 magazines and less damage in full auto mode (60-62 or something) while single fire should stay where it is. Also ACOG is just too close and looks kinda small, i like M14's version more.

Not a big fan of locking bat behind the pay wall, while i might eventually pick Road Redemption on sale, i'd prefer it to be included into Digital Delux. At least it doesn't show up in trader pod with the red text on it when you play Solo saying that you lack something.

Map looks cool, but the entire interior area is too tight and all these obstacles around the place... I vote it to be the most "get cornered and die hopeless" - friendly map of all time. And being unable to jump over stair railings is just sad

Also, what's the deal with these mini version of grenades projectiles TWI added recently? They are in files but not it use, except for Medic's one. And this mysterious weapon definition file named Medic32. Seem to be a leftover, but who knows, imagine all-perk M32 that shoots miniature versions of you Perk's grenades.

 

[PurpleFanta]

You dont use it offensively, hardly ever. But when you use it on someone, they practically cannot be grabbed by clots. Use it in a smart place and you're going to heal your whole team AND poison alot of zeds. Having a limitless supply of that would be absolutely busted.
Using it on choke points while your team is moving around the map is really good, being a buff focused medic with this would be ABSOLUTELY ABSURD.
I promise you, it's just too powerful.
If you really cant see why I just dont know what to tell you.

 

[Aleflippy]

The new zed skins are absolutely wonderful. I'd go as far as to say that I'd wish for them to stay all year long. All of them are great, but my favourites are definitely VR cyst and Scrakenstein (with a slight fondness for the plant crawler...FEED ME SEYMOUR!)

As for the guns, I haven't tried the Mkb42 yet (I'm so close to getting it but work got the best of my previous few days ~~~~ ) , but I enjoy the other two, even if as you said, I believe they were designed more with the commando in mind... Both could use some extra mags though (only one or two, nothing incredible!)

The HM-Tech 501 is awesome with both perks but since the healing grenades are kept even while playing Commando, you don't have many reasons to pick the medic over the tremendous boosts the Commando is offering... Namely extra damage and a huge mag.

It's even worse with the FAL as you said. It kicks so damn much in full-auto that a Sharpie simply cannot use it otherwise than as a DMR...But then, you're better off using the M14 which is less expensive and slightly more powerful. But in the hands of the 'mando? That thing is a beast... It melts everything.

 

[xmrmeow]

The recharge grenade idea is very cool. If it recharges slow like you said, I think it'd be balanced. Most waves don't last very long so if the average wave lasts say 5 minutes, you could make recharge such that you get 4 nades in that 5 minutes (so 75 seconds per 20%; although it wouldn't fill between waves so in a way this would be worse besides the fact that you save money).

 

[infntnub]

Nade regen would be immensely overpowered. It's endless ammo that kills enemies. If it didnt that'd be different.

I think you're envisioning regenning nades constantly when you say 'immenseley overpowered".

When I read the suggestion I was thinking you may regen 1 (MAYBE 2 if it's a long, long wave for some reason).

Original suggestion said something about regenning 20% of a nade per minute.

Based on that a wave would need to last 10 minutes to regen 2 nades. I'm not sure about you, but most of my game's waves never reach that.. so yeah, not sure how that would be overpowered.

 

[TheAphabet]

Fire power of medic-grenades aside, I would much prefer buying a set amount of m-nades that I can ration out over a wave than having to worry whether I'll get enough over the wave-- Unless you are suggesting (which I think not) that one can buy and regen grenades at the same time, which frankly makes me roll my eyes at the thought.

Perhaps the extended mag ability (Combatant Doctor) under the Medic's right tree also increases the grenade pool (unless it already does)?

 

[pie1055]

I think you're envisioning regenning nades constantly when you say 'immenseley overpowered".

When I read the suggestion I was thinking you may regen 1 (MAYBE 2 if it's a long, long wave for some reason).

Original suggestion said something about regenning 20% of a nade per minute.

Based on that a wave would need to last 10 minutes to regen 2 nades. I'm not sure about you, but most of my game's waves never reach that.. so yeah, not sure how that would be overpowered.

Your waves currently don't reach that because you aren't waiting for your grenades to regen. If the nades did regen you would start seeing people avoiding zeds just for the regen to take effect, and it's not very fun to wait for a wave to end minutes longer than it should because of that. Even if it wasn't that big of an actual problem it would still be a mechanic that promotes players extending game time at the expense of others because it's more efficient, like when medic could restore armor if players kept taking fall damage while someone else kept kiting the last zed. Players will optimize the fun out of games they play if you give them the chance.

And if it takes five minutes to restore a single nade what would the point of that even be? You can currently run around picking up ammo boxes and get much more ammo in the same time, if not drastically less. Hell you'll probably get more ammo in this fashion randomly stumbling over ammo boxes while trying to avoid and kill zeds. Even if it were somehow perfectly balanced, why put all the effort in of designing and creating such a mechanic when ammo boxes already exist and their effect is objectively better anyways?

Lastly and this is a bit of a subjective thing but I find the mechanic of finding ammo boxes more interesting and involved than waiting for a timer to finish. You have to debate whether re-positioning is safe enough to do, whether your need for ammo is greater than your teammates, and survive long enough to even find one. It adds skill and variety instead of taking it away.

Granted medic darts do operate on a recharge system but I think they are better suited to that than using ammo crates. They're not effective against zeds, I'm pretty sure their healing is weaker than nade healing, they can only heal one player at a time, and how often/how easily do you want your medic to be able to heal you? Them being unable to heal because someone took ammo they needed would open up possibilities for griefing and would generally suck if you're in dire need. Being out of the 501's grenades doesn't stop players from healing with their syringe and slapping regen on the 501's grenades would either trivialize other forms of healing entirely or be completely pointless. Maybe as a compromise the 501 could use medic darts when out of grenade ammo, I dunno.

 

[infntnub]

I do not expect the proposed regen mechanic to be implemented - just to be clear. I find it interesting though.

Your waves currently don't reach that because you aren't waiting for your grenades to regen. If the nades did regen you would start seeing people avoiding zeds just for the regen to take effect, and it's not very fun to wait for a wave to end minutes longer than it should because of that. Even if it wasn't that big of an actual problem it would still be a mechanic that promotes players extending game time at the expense of others because it's more efficient, like when medic could restore armor if players kept taking fall damage while someone else kept kiting the last zed. Players will optimize the fun out of games they play if you give them the chance.

I could definitely see derpy medics doing this on lower difficulties (and getting away with it), however, I could also see a lot of medics dying trying to wait out the regen time on sui/hoe so I really don't see it coming up very often.

But yeah, there is more of a chance to see players trying to drag out a wave.

 

[PurpleFanta]

If the cloud from the grenade ONLY healed, I would be fine with it, but because it has offensive capabilities, you would see people taking 5 minutes to clear a wave. I dont want that in multiplayer.

 

[Bluntman420]

I love the 501. It has become one of my favorite weapons, even with the bugged sights. Having all those extra med grenades is just so convenient and fun. I don't think the regen idea would work and I strongly disagree with decreasing the grenade amount. I feel the amount of grenades is at a good place, especially for the price of the weapon.

The MKb is great. It's kind of a UMP for the Commando, lol.

I don't much care for the FAL. It's pretty good with all the mag size perks for Commando but other than that it's really limited and the recoil is pretty crazy. I liked it at first as a sharpshooter weapon but when I used it on a 6man HoE game, I found that it wasn't as effective as I felt it was initially.

Love the new map. I think it's really well done. Nice holdout spots and nice kiting pathways. Love the traps, very useful.

Don't have the redeemer, so I can't really comment on that.

On the balance changes: I really like that the devs toned down the spawning of rioters in the first couple waves on HoE. The first couple waves are much more streamlined. Abomination is much more challenging to fight. I don't feel that he is the easiest boss anymore and he is much more fun to face. The Doomstick change was much needed. The Stoner feels really good! Lastly, the 301 firing speed is nice to see again.

I'm very pleased with this update, personally.

 

[Althamus]

When I proposed the idea of medic nades regenning, I was expecting maybe one per minute or one every other minute or something akin to that, so over the course of a 8 minute wave you'll get maybe 4-8 back. Although probably to save exploitation, the medicnades should probably automatically fill to max at the end of the trader time, so the strategy of "kiting the last zed for 10 minutes while the medic refills his nades" doesn't come back.

Something I think everyone's missing is that yes, you will get more medic nades, potentially unlimited medic nades, this way. But if you're camping in one spot, the wave will go quickly and you'll get maybe 2-3 more nades because of it. If the wave is taking more than 10 minutes or so, it's probably because you're kiting. At which point, if you're running around the entire map, you'll be picking up ammo boxes which would regen your grenades -anyway-.

 

[Shy Bell]

I would like to drop some comments on the FN FAL.
Right now this weapon is quite overpowered as commando and there is only two reasons why some players might disaggree:

1. Its ammo pool is quite low
2. Its recoil is quite high

Now both of these arguments are correct and tripwire probably did this because they are aware of it being overpowered, yet you can counter this disadvantages quite easily.
regarding 1.:
With the damage passive you can oneshot all the small zeds with bodyshots, so that you basically have 190 possible trash kills without aiming for heads. Furthermore this weapon has penetration (the other commando weapons do not), therefore you can often kill multiple trash zeds with one shot, which makes you save even more ammo. I also recommend to go for 50% extra mag size, to have get more ammo while picking up boxes and to have 10 shots more maximum ammo (it does not sound much, but it has an impact)

regarding 2.:
The recoil is no issue as soon as you reach level 20, as the reduced recoil makes you unload mags to scrakes heads easily.

Now why do I think that this weapon is overpowered:
First out of all commando weapons it has the best dps in the game. My below calculations do not take into account the damage bonus per perk, as I am not sure about the calculation and it is the same for all weapons so it will not change the ranks.

1. FN FAL (with extra mag size):
484 DPS
2. AK with Burstmode (with extra mag size):
440 DPS
3. MKB (with faster reload):
395 DPS
4. SCAR (with extra mag size):
384 DPS
and so on...

So you might say the difference of 484 to 440 is not much, but I find it can difficult to unload the 45 shots of the ak into scrake heads and if you fail to do it you will watch the long reloading animation of the AK which always results in being hit by raged scrakes.
Comparing the 484 with the 395 of the MKB we are now talking about 22% more damage, which is quite noticable. Yes the MKB has a lot of ammo and this is also clearly an advantage over the FN FAL but there is one thing that no other commando weapon can compete with:
The weapon type
Many you probably know that ZEDS take different amounts of damage based on the weapon that is shot. In this case I am talking about the Fleshpounds.
While all commando weapons get their damage cut into half, sniper rifled only get 25% reduction. FN FAL is a balistic rifle (not a balistic Assaultrifle), which gives it another 50% damage advantage over all other commando weapons (while fighting Fleshpounds only).
That means the 22% damage advantage compared to the MKB is suddenly a 83% damage advantage, so that it almost doubles the DPS compared to the already strong MKB.
If you do not believe try it out and you will see that you do not need a demo or sharpshooter to take out 6 player fleshpounds on your own. This is a huge thread for the game balance and I hope that tripwire will take actions (although I like the commando and the FN FAL obviously).