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I just don't get the point of some of the final upgrades

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  • I just don't get the point of some of the final upgrades

    On weapons like the FT or the HC, you want 1500 and you get absolutely nothing from it, one would think asking for the same price of the weapon(HC) you would at least get an actual buff from it. Don't even get me started on the annoying as hell weight gains the weapons get because of 'reasons', that's just annoying as hell.

  • #2

    "Dare you question how TWI balance this thing since KF1!?"
    Last edited by NokiaSE; 06-15-2018, 07:56 AM.
    Don't trust the atoms, they made up everything.

    Comment


    • #3
      Maybe if they added extra ammo to be used when you upgrade a weapon, it would make sense for the increase in weight.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dr. Lethal View Post
        Maybe if they added extra ammo to be used when you upgrade a weapon, it would make sense for the increase in weight.
        That's not a bad idea actually. Different weapons have different strengths and weaknesses - a lot weapons benefit from more damage to alleviate those weaknesses, but others need something else like ammo capacity.

        I like the weapon upgrade system on paper, but gameplay-wise it doesn't really add a lot - there's so much potential if Tripwire goes beyond the "1 weight + 10% damage increase" system. (which they are likely to)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by imnrk View Post

          That's not a bad idea actually. Different weapons have different strengths and weaknesses - a lot weapons benefit from more damage to alleviate those weaknesses, but others need something else like ammo capacity.

          I like the weapon upgrade system on paper, but gameplay-wise it doesn't really add a lot - there's so much potential if Tripwire goes beyond the "1 weight + 10% damage increase" system. (which they are likely to)
          Shotguns for example already do a lot of damage, and are mainly used by supports, so they could get extra ammo so you can keep using it longer.

          Certain demo weapons could still have the increased damage since a good demo should know when to place his shots. Same for the snipers.

          Assault rifles could be either or I guess. Same with the SMGs.

          Gunslinger pistols would get extra ammo with them, as I doubt they need a damage increase. Zerker weapons could stick with the damage increase.

          In short, if a weapon is only doing upgraded damage, it shouldn't need a weight increase. Extra ammunition will though.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well, I'd say that it's surprisingly fun to do the whole game with the 1911s or the MP7... But it doesn't really go further than that.

            I guess extra ammo never hurts, even more so for some weapons (the doomstick!!). But is it that needed unless playing in HoE though?

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            • #7
              I am pretty sure that the flat "add weight, add damage" system we have now is just a placeholder for a more sophisticated upgrade feature we will get later on and it was implemented now just to get it in place while the team works on the real deal. I also believe, this was stated in one of the WWAUT updates or patchlogs. So why cause widespread panic when you can just wait for a more refined system later on (with maybe exact those options for more ammo or higher mag cap or munition types or or or or). All the while enjoying the new option to make your favourite T-X gun usable into late game allready?

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              • #8
                I do not agree with this post.
                I have created a google sheet in which I compare my favorite classes (currently gunslinger, support and commando). And I have to say that the weapons are balanced better than ever with the new upgrade system. You can run different builds and pretty much every weapon has a pro and a con in some situations. There are weapons which are not worth upgrading, yet there are far less useless weapons than in the past and therefore more different builds.
                The doomstick for example cannot compete with the boomstick, which is quite funny. (yes it has a tiny bit better dps, and you have that initial onehitshot to the head, but it lacks the ammo to be useful for the whole round and it is to heavy to leave room for an additional shotgun to make up for its low ammo pool). I play hz12 for trash and m4 for fps and scrakes. With the recent buffs to the m4 it has outstanding dps potential.
                Last edited by Shy Bell; 06-16-2018, 06:59 AM. Reason: Added some notes on the shotgun statement

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shy Bell View Post
                  I do not agree with this post.
                  I have created a google sheet in which I compare my favorite classes (currently gunslinger, support and commando). And I have to say that the weapons are balanced better than ever with the new upgrade system. You can run different builds and pretty much every weapon has a pro and a con in some situations. There are weapons which are not worth upgrading, yet there are far less useless weapons than in the past and therefore more different builds.
                  The doomstick for example cannot compete with the boomstick, which is quite funny. (yes it has a tiny bit better dps, and you have that initial onehitshot to the head, but it lacks the ammo to be useful for the whole round and it is to heavy to leave room for an additional shotgun to make up for its low ammo pool). I play hz12 for trash and m4 for fps and scrakes. With the recent buffs to the m4 it has outstanding dps potential.
                  The doomstick outclasses the boomstick in sheer damage potential, and it still does. Only issue with it is the fact they pulled too much ammunition out of its pool. Before then, you could easily use it with the M4 for several rounds since they had enough ammunition to take on almost everything. But now, doomstick only has 15 alt fire shots when using a backpack. It's around the same as the boomstick's pool when you have increased ammunition, but it should be more.

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                  • #10
                    Maybe if they added extra ammo to be used when you upgrade a weapon, it would make sense for the increase in weight.
                    I agree, more ammo would be nice, in a lot of cases the upgrade damage does not outweigh the use of ammunition. Swat could benefit from this in its entirety.

                    That or go down the same road that KF1 did and add 'hidden' perks for ammo and weapon costs.

                    As an example:
                    A 2% reduction in weapon costs per 5 levels: 2/4/6/8/10
                    A 2.5% reduction in ammo costs per 5 levels: 2.5/5/7.5/10/12.5 / Or even 5% per 5 for a nice rounded mark of 25%

                    But! Just wait for the KF2 purists to come along and start crying that that would be game breaking.
                    Just to prove a point here that it would not:

                    Lets take one of my favorites, the Desert Eagle
                    The Base cost of the .50 DE is $550 - 10% of this is $55

                    It takes approx $315 to fill the DE from empty to 7/98 (105)
                    12.5% if that is only $39 (rounded down from $39.375)
                    Even 25% of that is only $78 (rounded down from $78.75)

                    None of these figures are game breaking, nor give you an amazingly large advantage, it would still take 2/3 rounds to save for a full clip and armor, and this is excluding you potentially buying ammo for the 9mm, nades and/or weapons/upgrade(s).

                    I'll say it again, the upgrade system is not the bee all and end all

                    Dr. Lethal is right, we need more ammo, x1.3/1.5 damage (not all weapons) is not worth the cost and it does not negate ammo used.
                    Last edited by Dr_Derpinson; 06-16-2018, 11:14 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dr. Lethal View Post
                      The doomstick outclasses the boomstick in sheer damage potential, and it still does. ...
                      It has a huge burst on the first shot, that's it. Outclassing?

                      Fully upgraded fast reloading Boomstick has 504 damage per second.
                      Fully upgraded fast reloading Doomstick has 513 damage per second.

                      That is a difference 1.7%. The difference is so small, that it does not matter in most situations. I do not know how you can call that "outclassing".
                      If you are wondering why the boomstick comes so close, it is because of the reload speed, which is quite slow for the doom stick.

                      Next point is that we are comparing 8 weight with 12. That is like another weapon (or a crovel which I always take to parry fps).
                      The downside of the doomstick becomes even more obvious when you compare it unupgraded.

                      We are now talking about 438 damage per second for 5(!) weight vs 467 damage per second for 11 weight. That is more than double weight for 6,6% more damage per second.

                      While the boom stick has a damage per second per weight ratio of 87,6 the doom stick is at 42,45. My point is, the doom stick is fine if you compare it damage and ammo wise, but the high weight makes it weak.

                      It might be fine for players that are playing without a crovel, as they do not need the extra weight, but these players are dying as soon as they are attacked by fleshpounds, as you can hardly dodge them (even with superskilled trickshotjumps they will eventually hit you as they dont stop raging if they dont hit someone).

                      Most of the time players are dying at late waves, because they are not aware of how strong offperk parrying is.
                      Last edited by Shy Bell; 06-16-2018, 11:52 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Shy Bell View Post
                        It has a huge burst on the first shot, that's it. Outclassing?

                        Fully upgraded fast reloading Boomstick has 504 damage per second.
                        Fully upgraded fast reloading Doomstick has 513 damage per second.

                        That is a difference 1.7%. The difference is so small, that it does not matter in most situations. I do not know how you can call that "outclassing".
                        If you are wondering why the boomstick comes so close, it is because of the reload speed, which is quite slow for the doom stick.

                        Next point is that we are comparing 8 weight with 12. That is like another weapon (or a crovel which I always take to parry fps).
                        The downside of the doomstick becomes even more obvious when you compare it unupgraded.

                        We are now talking about 438 damage per second for 5(!) weight vs 467 damage per second for 11 weight. That is more than double weight for 6,6% more damage per second.

                        While the boom stick has a damage per second per weight ratio of 87,6 the doom stick is at 42,45. My point is, the doom stick is fine if you compare it damage and ammo wise, but the high weight makes it weak.

                        It might be fine for players that are playing without a crovel, as they do not need the extra weight, but these players are dying as soon as they are attacked by fleshpounds, as you can hardly dodge them (even with superskilled trickshotjumps they will eventually hit you as they dont stop raging if they dont hit someone).

                        Most of the time players are dying at late waves, because they are not aware of how strong offperk parrying is.
                        If TW decides to shave a little bit of weight off, that's fine. And personally, the doomstick is primarily a support weapon, so using it for offperk purposes is counterproductive to whatever perk you're using outside of survivalist. Despite the weight and lowered ammo (which could be reversed within the next update), it the DS still carries a tune that makes scrakes and fleshpounds shudder when hearing it fire. It may have been a little too good for general use since it had the same amount of ammo as the M4, but it does have good use over the boomstick just for sheer damage output up close, at enough to off a Pound with two good headshots.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Shy Bell View Post
                          It has a huge burst on the first shot, that's it. Outclassing?

                          Fully upgraded fast reloading Boomstick has 504 damage per second.
                          Fully upgraded fast reloading Doomstick has 513 damage per second.

                          That is a difference 1.7%. The difference is so small, that it does not matter in most situations. I do not know how you can call that "outclassing".
                          If you are wondering why the boomstick comes so close, it is because of the reload speed, which is quite slow for the doom stick.

                          Next point is that we are comparing 8 weight with 12. That is like another weapon (or a crovel which I always take to parry fps).
                          The downside of the doomstick becomes even more obvious when you compare it unupgraded.

                          We are now talking about 438 damage per second for 5(!) weight vs 467 damage per second for 11 weight. That is more than double weight for 6,6% more damage per second.

                          While the boom stick has a damage per second per weight ratio of 87,6 the doom stick is at 42,45. My point is, the doom stick is fine if you compare it damage and ammo wise, but the high weight makes it weak.

                          It might be fine for players that are playing without a crovel, as they do not need the extra weight, but these players are dying as soon as they are attacked by fleshpounds, as you can hardly dodge them (even with superskilled trickshotjumps they will eventually hit you as they dont stop raging if they dont hit someone).

                          Most of the time players are dying at late waves, because they are not aware of how strong offperk parrying is.
                          I'm no pro or anything, but isn't it better to kill something in one shot than two, regardless of DPS? With more shots to kill you have to make sure more of them hit, meaning you have more chances to miss. Due to this rule of sorts weapons that take more shots to kill usually have higher DPS to offset the fact you're more likely to miss individual shots and end up with less actual DPS. Looking at it from this angle the Doomstick looks like a much better option because the Boomstick does not have the higher potential DPS it should, despite needing more individual shots to down targets.

                          I don't know the actual numbers or anything so this could all be moot if a Boomstick altfire and a Doomstick altfire are similar in number of shots to kill priority targets, but this is the logic I typically see employed at higher skill levels of play.

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                          • #14
                            The 2nd to last and final upgrade to the spitfires annoys me to no end, the weapon gains 5 effing pounds in 3 upgrades, what is the justification for this? The damage? It's alright but honestly is it 5 pounds alright? Sure as hell doesn't seem that way.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by pie1055 View Post

                              I'm no pro or anything, but isn't it better to kill something in one shot than two, regardless of DPS? With more shots to kill you have to make sure more of them hit, meaning you have more chances to miss. Due to this rule of sorts weapons that take more shots to kill usually have higher DPS to offset the fact you're more likely to miss individual shots and end up with less actual DPS. Looking at it from this angle the Doomstick looks like a much better option because the Boomstick does not have the higher potential DPS it should, despite needing more individual shots to down targets.

                              I don't know the actual numbers or anything so this could all be moot if a Boomstick altfire and a Doomstick altfire are similar in number of shots to kill priority targets, but this is the logic I typically see employed at higher skill levels of play.
                              Yes, being able to kill something with less shots is a big advantage. But the high weight makes the weapon for me unusable.

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