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The collective thread as to why E.D.A.Rs need to be gone

qu3x^

Grizzled Veteran
May 8, 2014
235
4
I guess I came pretty late to the ****post party, so I start throwing my feces now.
With v1065 we first got introduced with some new enemy type. Juding by the name it had to do something with robots and that's what made me rethink twice why I loved KF2 so much. Because of ZEDs - Not robots.

From what the released versions of KF had so far were ZEDs as enemy type.
Basically mutant clones made out of virtual DNA with blood and a lot of mushy intestines, breakable bones and weak limps to dismember. A cool B movie you can actually play in that had an underlying meta to it. The core was Bullets, Blades, and Blood and not some Nuts and Bolts as in some Rare based game. I liked how you basically get freedback from every harm you do to the ZED. Its instant, its highly visual mostly and audible as if you shot something that had blood running through it.
Also killing them and dismembering them is just another satisfying side effect.

The game changed over night how it is perceived by thousands of fans.

Even tho there is legitimate fanbase for D.A.R. I can't think of a robot enemy type in that universe. With the Patty beeing the only exception for a long time having mechanical parts D.A.R. surfaced sometimes in KF1 and found its way into the fans hearts. Still the current implementation seems so out of place. From a design standpoint it's a rehash of a model we used to see as a friendly unit. Thats the first no go to add and secondly the three designs for each form are way to less destinctive in what they do considering 2 out of these 3 can attack you from miles away and inflicting huge amount of damage or even immobilize you until overran by trash or a FP train. It's the lazy design in multiple areas what makes me so moody about it. You would think if only the visual design was bad the gameplay designs better.

Damn son you are so wrong; from a technical standpoint its not even comparable to the void the siren can have to immobilize the player. Its basically across an entire area plus the super tankyness. I don't know who came up with the idea while the nerf system was in place (I'll talk about this later on and why I call it that way) already and the increased ammount of Rioters to add these enemies. It basically leads to dry guns all the time cause guess what you can now waste your bullets on shooting legs and kneecaps more often and can waste a lot of ALTfire DBS/DS and REM5 +3 CF2 (wtf - how ****ing broke can this **** be).

To disect this current aids meta the player gets immobilized from across the map within an area where he can barely see the enemy. Suddenly the players lose HP in 10HP increments and hears some Star Wars themed laser sounds. With abit of aim the player has a chance to shoot it once with a headshot and it will most likely set him free. The dmg these ****ers take are beyond any reasonable game design. I get it that immobilization will cause the player to fail at some point or in some area but it should rather be a punishment for dumb behavior not dealing with a thread in a timely manner rather then be a forced engagement because you can see a pixel of the enemey. This is just a lazy example of how less thought was placed into these enemies. It isn't fun to encounter E.D.A.Rs cause there is no way under 3 seconds to deal with them considering their physical size. It needs roughly a full REM stack and a buffed CF upg2 and two exclusive headshots to decap them. Ohhhh wait there is more. When these enemies are decapped they are still a threat you need to deal with.

If you want to spice up the difficulty for HoE why not increase the movment speed by 10% across the board. Give the OG FP his spinning move back. Add an Alpha Siren that has a pull in Void and a faster way of walking. There are so many so little ways into tweaking this game to a decent level and I need to admint that even without the E.D.A.Rs the current population of Roiters makes the life of a Support/Demo a living hell already even tho I don't main these classes. Simple by the fact how downgraded some weapons currently are you need more shots to kill in some encounters what makes ammo conservation a lot harder with the actual Rioter spawns. Still you need at least one upgraded weapon to stay ontop of the meta without running fully dry.

All in all this update feels bodged in so many ways. The way the guns got nerfed to be upgraded to their previews state makes a lot of setups impossible due to the new weighting distribution. Therefor ammo pools are a lot smaller and having those robots ontop of the increased Riotspawns make the game just feel spongy rather then empowering and fun.


TL;DR
  • Visual design E.D.A.Rs
    • doesn't fit the game. Its a game against mutant clone experiments - not robots
    • to less variation between subtypes
    • hard to telegraph attacks from
    • missing damage visualization - how much health might it have due to the looks
  • gameplay design for E.D.A.Rs
    • is too tanky
    • punishes players regardless of how good they do on the field
    • feels unintutive to fight against
    • ammo pool wasn't accounted for
FIX - remove the current implementation from the game and rework a visual concept that works in the realm of KF2 as a ZED. Refine gameplay to reward player behavior and good decision making.
 
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Fiji_wolf_virus;n2319929 said:
Thats actually not a bad idea i like that but how would they be balanced?

Difficult but would be fun to see:

Phase 1. all 3 of them appear and do the whatever they are doing now (shooting and imobilising)
In the process of shooting at them, if one of the takes enough damage and his kit falls off (as it does now) it will fly off and wait for other 2 to experience same fate and move to phase 2.

Phase 2: 2 of them transform into somekind of new weapon (maybe sword and shielf, or a gun idk) and the same begins dodge and shoot till it bails out for phase 3

Phase 3: a few more of them come in and they merge into one giant fokhen robot (titan size because why not, we need something epic)
And it begins.
Aoe slam (something like kfp but just one giant smash with larger scale)

Air to ground rocket strike. Similar to pat's mortar, but it would shoot into an aimed area where there's 2 or more people in it (depending on the player amount), instead of the rocket scatter as pat does.

Laser strike, similar to kfp but in different way.
Instead of shooting for direct hit, it would shoot into the ground and do a line.
double or triple in radius so you would really try to dodge the beam.

Vacuum cleaner: Basically a hand looking like a cannon but sucking you in like a vacuum cleaner.... and probably launching you away after wards to deal fall damage (that would require fall dmg tweak i guess)
 
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I'm copying and pasting a post I made elsewhere. I dont think they need to be removed, but their delivery needs to be changed.

Yeah, they feel a little out of place.
I was worried about it at first, less worried after I'd played it but it still feels odd to me.
It does make a little bit of sense due to Horzine being a high tech corporation or something along those lines, so they would at some point likely have developed robots. That being said, I still think they should be very rare encounters. Almost like bosses in endless. Maybe like on wave 6-7/7 for medium or 8-10/10 for long and rarely on 4/4 for short.

Warframe has a system where if you anger a certain faction enough, you'll become hunted by elites that differ depending on the faction you anger.
So sometimes you get hunted by an assassin, another time you get a gang of 3 elite guys sent after you, and another time you'll get a robot that tries to kidnap you. But you never know when they're going to do it, just that if you're marked by a faction, they'll eventually show up and cause trouble for you.

I think if it felt more like that, that they're going to come show up at random and mess up the place for one encounter, not spread out all over the place, it would feel alot better. Like random robots coming out doesnt feel right. If they came in packs of 3, one of each as if they're sent by old horzine to stop you from killing their zeds, and they were a dangerous encounter, I think that would be awesome.

Here's an example of encountering a stalker in warframe: https://youtu.be/uNrdwhRk5OM?t=37 (this guy takes forever to kill this one because it gains damage resistance to whatever you're hitting him with after taking x% of health as damage and he keeps using the same damage type)
 
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The first problem with EDARs is that it changes the game to a freaking spam fest.

At the begining, only crawlers forced you to aim to the ground instead of the bunch of heads in front of you.
Then, they added the Rioter, that cannot be shot in the head (unless you're sharp or slinger), forcing you to shoot at their legs.
Now, they added the EDAR, that cannot be shot in the head too (unless you're a railgun/M99 sharp), forcing you to shoot at their legs.

Problem is : when you shoot at their legs, they evade, jump everywhere, and you can't keep a precise aim on their legs (especially while they're firing lasers or rockets at you).
As a result, you just end up shooting like a ****tard at a pile of zeds, hopping to hit as much legs as possible to kill those robots. This is maybe fun in lower difficulties when you don't even have to aim at the head to kill things, but in higher difficulties it's just the opposite of fun.
The game is supposed to reward precision, it has always been like that since KF1. Now, the game rewards AA12/Doomstick spam fest in the legs.

Yoshiro said on Discord that they wanted us to "think" when we play and that was why they added EDARs. But shooting everything in the legs in not "thinking" at all, you don't even need a brain to do that.

How to fix this ? Just remove the EDARs' armor plates and make so they don't evade as much as they do now.
And now, it's like magic !
We have ennemies on the ground (Crawlers), ennemies that should be shot in the legs (Rioters), ennemies that should be shot in the chest (EDARs), and ennemies that should be shot in the head (everything else).


I think it would be way better like this, and force you to "think" (this is not the good word here, I'm just quoting Yoshiro) to where to shoot zeds in order to kill them as fast as possible.

I see a crawler ? Bam, I aim the ground.
I see a rioter ? Ratatata, **** its legs.
I see an EDAR ? Bang bang to chest !
I see a Husk ? Oh wait for your backpack to show up nasty boy !
I see a gorefast ? BOOM headshot !

Simple. If EDARs don't evade and are more vulnerable, you would actually take some time to aim, and the game would stop the be the spam fest it actually is.
 
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I'm not playing the beta, but I never really dug the concept of this zed/robot mix.. I would totally be down if the EDARs were like.. their own gamemode.. maybe a map of a horzine facility you broke into where zeds weren't experimented on there.. but the defense mechanism of the facility is activating the hundreds of EDARs within.

Based on the actual gameplay experience others are posting, it doesn't sound very fun at the current moment.

Can we get some kind of soldiers/infected? I like the sound of being shot at occasionally other than by a husk. :)
 
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Sad DEVs did not come with concept of Zed that shoots needles or other projectiles, or Zed that use his "telescopic hands" (geez, my english suck right here :D ) to grab and immobilize players. Or Zeds with cyberimplants similar to those Patriarch has.
I dont really like the idea of Robots in this game, espcially when they fight against the player.
I would not mind if they were map-exclusive, or kept for special rounds in Endless mode. But common gameplay? I feel them as a disturbing elements that damages the feeling of gory zombie horror FPS.
 
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This "lore" argument is just nonsense. They fit the "lore" fine. I mean we have ****ing commando chickens, characters wearing cardboard boxes, and yes our own personal friendly robot that talks way too much (and much more). Would I prefer zombies? Sure. Are the robots lore breaking? No.

Also, I've been able to deal with them fairly efficiently with the right weapons and if you shoot them in the right spots. Shoot them in the legs or chest (legs are best from my experience). I know their weakness is supposed to be the chest but the armor is too strong and tanky, therefore, the legs are better for now. In a group, you just need to make sure that you have one person or two targeting them depending on where you are. Teamwork helps unless you enjoy a random spamfest.

Now I do agree with you that they are too strong. I also think they spawn too many of them on HoE. If they are to remain that strong then there needs to be less of them. If they are nerfed then the spawn rate is fine. I do not necessarily like their look. As I stated earlier I'd like them to be more like cyborg zombies like the others. Trappers are quite a nuisance and their trapping is definitely bugged. Aside from the bug of them trapping you through walls and zeds, there needs to be some type of cooldown period for the player before they can be trapped again. Bombers and especially Blasters need to be louder when they shoot at you, they are way too quiet. Lastly, their evades are too frequent as someone above pointed out.

I think the best thing for them would be random mini boss encouners like others have eluded to.
 
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I would rather them add them to only Endless or as a bass as others have suggested. In a game where you absolutely have to keep moving the Trappers just **** you hard and not in a fun way, at least if you get grabbed by a Clot its because you let them get too close.

Maybe we can have an option to pick fighting hoards of Zeds or E.D.A.R.'s?
 
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While I would rather like more elite zeds, I don't care about dars from design standpoint. We doesn't have clear solid lore in this game, and no, I don't need detailed explanation of dars, it's gonna be cringy, I'm sure. The problem with dars is that they are literally bullet sponges. I mean ok, removing head don't kill them, fine. Then just let us remove their weapons. Fix the range, the fact that ALL THREE CAN SHOOT POTENTIALLY BETTER THAN HUSK... is not ok. They all need general nerf(armor and body health, shoot range, damage). They need specific weak point, not just legs. Maybe vulnerability to fire, microwave, emp, maybe make weapons with penetration ignore armor and do damage to body, atleast something to stop them since they are ranged threat. They also spawn with stalker for no reason. Would be cool if each type would be different tier - make bomber same as big zeds, make him much slower, heavier dar that don't rush to players and can't fly around, only when it's rocket launchers removed it goes full ham. Remove armor from blaster one(forgot the name), so it become just annoying trash tier. Make trapper as same as husk, also slow, not aggressive and instead of shooting infinite stopping beam, let it shoot chargeable emp projectile that slows, not just stop instantly. Would be also cool if you destroy it's rifle thing it explodes as husk but with emp explosion that stuns other zeds. From design standpoint, the only thing that upsets me is that this robots are different from friendly player dars. Would be actually interesting to see a mode, where your enemy is literally bot player. PS: almost forgot: they need more visual difference, you can actually use player dar cosmetics (with different, pats texture).
 
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I was never a DAR fan so this evolution was kind of disappointing, although foreseeable & passing to the KF space/advanced technology themes. I like that there are new enemies & that they increase the difficulty but the Trapper's range is insane & goes through solid objects, walls, & terrain.

The E.D.A.R.s don't look as brutal & haphazardly malformed as the Patriarch's genetic experiments... which is also a bit disappointing. I think it would be more fitting if they had reinforced glass tanks with electrode fastened organs inside or some more cyborg-like feel.

As for the their weaponry:
-Mini Missiles- hmmm yeah, OK somewhat fitting, not so accurate & do friendly fire on the Zeds.
-Electro snare- (see above) - but OK aesthetically. It needs hit detection so players can avoid it or take cover.
-Lasers- aesthetically displeasing due to their Star Wars like feel. I'd prefer they have cutting beams that start low & rip a path along the ground as they track to the target... or just some rusty old guns mounted into their framework.

Bottom line: I do NOT think they should be removed but reviewed, reskinned, & tweaked.

PS- Whet I first read the EDAR announcement I too thought they might be an assassin squad style Boss trio. With a reasonable rework that could actually be a really cool option.
 
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missing_trigger;n2320010 said:
They need specific weak point, not just legs. Maybe vulnerability to fire, microwave, emp, maybe make weapons with penetration ignore armor and do damage to body, atleast something to stop them since they are ranged threat.
There are some weaknesses! Other than the legs, microwaves I have found work pretty well on them. .500 magnums, double and quad barrel shotties, and EMP grenades and powerfists mess them up! Pretty much anything that does a decent job in stumbling them seems to do a nice job in disorienting them allowing the players time to kill them. The hardest part with them is with open maps. On tighter maps it is easier to disrupt and kill them.



liamtranzig;n2320037 said:
I was never a DAR fan so this evolution was kind of disappointing, although foreseeable & passing to the KF space/advanced technology themes. I like that there are new enemies & that they increase the difficulty but the Trapper's range is insane & goes through solid objects, walls, & terrain.

The E.D.A.R.s don't look as brutal & haphazardly malformed as the Patriarch's genetic experiments... which is also a bit disappointing. I think it would be more fitting if they had reinforced glass tanks with electrode fastened organs inside or some more cyborg-like feel.
Agreed!
 
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