DEMOLITIONIST overpowered with explosive IMPACTS not dealing any self damage?

[Buzzkillinton]

- if a unit is resistant to your damage, it would be prudent not to go for them unless you have to. an example here is a firebug trying to burn down a scrake with the flamethrower. it will take either a lot of time or a lot of ammo to do so and is generally ill advised.
- I haven't seen this mentioned before in this thread, I have seen people say that the RPG even when it doesn't explode it should hit pretty dahm hard (they are right here, but that doesn't explain the multiplier for the scrake specifically) and I have seen people say that it is fun decapping scrakes with the RPG..an important part of the game, but less in line with the actual question.
-headshots are common on all ballistic classes, and many of them have to score more then 2 on the scrake to down it. the only 1 that can reliably 1-shot the scrake with a single HS on all difficulties and standard player counts is the railgun-full-left-sharpshooter. relative to classes that have to score 8+ HS for a down, the RPG is very easy to use in this capacity.
-this particular zed is the only explosive resistant non-boss zed that has the HP to resist a single RPG, it is also the only zed in the game that gets a X4 multiplier on impact damage dealt by the top explosive weapon. effectively bypassing its resistance all-together, no other class or weapon gets this benefit regardless of relevant weapon feel. for example the railgun doesn't get a X4 multiplier on a FP head, despite the FP being 50% resistant to ballistic fire. and the rail is heavier, has no splash and has a similar amount of ammunition.
-not particularity uncommon for people to first have to dedicate effort to clear trash before dealing with a big zed, and most of them have no splash atoll.
-if the RPG knocks down the target, you crowd controlled it...the demo has several skills to boost this effect in his weapons, for the class this is set up like a boon, not a negative despite that fact that its hard to line up good shots on downed targets.
-many people do it, so do I with many weapons...including but not limited to the RPG. again landing multiple headshots on a scrake...raging or not...is a common feature for almost every ballistic class. it is just that none of the used weapons get a benifit to deal with the class they are weak against.



yes it hits bloody hard, but why does it get that multiplier on the scrake exclusively.

Game balance...and reasons.

 

[Buzzkillinton]

personallly, i dond find demo fun at all to play except with the M203. its boring and far too vulnerable to trash to be much fun. favorites are support and commando!

 

[conductiv]

Game balance...and reasons.

I do assume there is a (probably game balance related) reason, I just don't know it. so you are correct ....but I would still like to know what reason it is exactly...having kittenmitten bulldozer in here with a statsboard could shed some light on it, but he might just come in and say..."well we did that for kicks and giggles"

keep in mind I am not the guy claiming demo is OP, I just don't get why the RPG gets the bonus multiplier on scrakes...as for me at least...it makes no sense.

personallly, i dond find demo fun at all to play except with the M203. its boring and far too vulnerable to trash to be much fun. favorites are support and commando!

it isn't my favorite class, but I like explosive weapons...I love using C4 and the RPG off-perk. there are just a few weird decisions made with regards to these weapons (in my opinion). I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from using demo or the RPG. it is very likely you too have a similar beef with a part of the game mechanics, some aspect where you think..."why the hell did they make it so it works that way"..

 

[TacticalSpy]

I do assume there is a (probably game balance related) reason, I just don't know it. so you are correct ....but I would still like to know what reason it is exactly...having kittenmitten bulldozer in here with a statsboard could shed some light on it, but he might just come in and say..."well we did that for kicks and giggles"

keep in mind I am not the guy claiming demo is OP, I just don't get why the RPG gets the bonus multiplier on scrakes...as for me at least...it makes no sense.

it isn't my favorite class

I don't expect any Demolitionist mains to enter our discussion and tell us this perk is truly OP. That would be traitorous and disadvantageous for them.

It's rather about the explosive weapons not dealing any self damage to its user at close range.

It makes sense for an impact without detonation, but I want it to deal less than 80 % of the base damage! Is that acceptable?

 

[ckincbloodmoney]

I miss the days of camping stairs in farmhouse and planting c4 at the base of the staircase, detonating it whenever it went into zed time to activate the OP Nuke back then (before they rendered it useless and it would even kill FPs lmao). RPG+C4 was super fun back then, but I never use C4 anymore since it's more helpful for me to have the m79 to help clear trash more often, because back then you couldn't have RPG + M79 together.

Nowadays, if I'm playing 6P suicidal and we don't have a demo (and/or medic) I'll switch to demo to get rid of the Fleshpounds (especially if all we have are swat and commando)

 

[Pavlov's Dog]

"Demo has no weaknesses"

How do you figure that? Try running a sui/HoE game with teammates who won't support you. Lone demos are asking to get swarmed and ganked. Their survivability is low. Their trash-clearing abilities are highly dependent on how well they can funnel incoming zeds into a confined space. With multiple spawns and teleporting zeds on higher difficulties, it's very tough to keep the trash clear on your own as a demo.

The demo class does feel very strong, but I say that's great. I think it's right where it should be: A glass cannon that can do work if used correctly.

 

[TacticalSpy]

"Demo has no weaknesses"

How do you figure that? Try running a sui/HoE game with teammates who won't support you. Lone demos are asking to get swarmed and ganked. Their survivability is low. Their trash-clearing abilities are highly dependent on how well they can funnel incoming zeds into a confined space. With multiple spawns and teleporting zeds on higher difficulties, it's very tough to keep the trash clear on your own as a demo.

The demo class does feel very strong, but I say that's great. I think it's right where it should be: A glass cannon that can do work if used correctly.

I didn't type "Demo has no weaknesses". Please read correctly. Thank you!

 

[pie1055]

- if a unit is resistant to your damage, it would be prudent not to go for them unless you have to. an example here is a firebug trying to burn down a scrake with the flamethrower. it will take either a lot of time or a lot of ammo to do so and is generally ill advised.
- I haven't seen this mentioned before in this thread, I have seen people say that the RPG even when it doesn't explode it should hit pretty dahm hard (they are right here, but that doesn't explain the multiplier for the scrake specifically) and I have seen people say that it is fun decapping scrakes with the RPG..an important part of the game, but less in line with the actual question.
-headshots are common on all ballistic classes, and many of them have to score more then 2 on the scrake to down it. the only 1 that can reliably 1-shot the scrake with a single HS on all difficulties and standard player counts is the railgun-full-left-sharpshooter. relative to classes that have to score 8+ HS for a down, the RPG is very easy to use in this capacity.
-this particular zed is the only explosive resistant non-boss zed that has the HP to resist a single RPG, it is also the only zed in the game that gets a X4 multiplier on impact damage dealt by the top explosive weapon. effectively bypassing its resistance all-together, no other class or weapon gets this benefit regardless of relevant weapon feel. for example the railgun doesn't get a X4 multiplier on a FP head, despite the FP being 50% resistant to ballistic fire. and the rail is heavier, has no splash and has a similar amount of ammunition.
-not particularity uncommon for people to first have to dedicate effort to clear trash before dealing with a big zed, and most of them have no splash atoll.
-if the RPG knocks down the target, you crowd controlled it...the demo has several skills to boost this effect in his weapons, for the class this is set up like a boon, not a negative despite that fact that its hard to line up good shots on downed targets.
-many people do it, so do I with many weapons...including but not limited to the RPG. again landing multiple headshots on a scrake...raging or not...is a common feature for almost every ballistic class. it is just that none of the used weapons get a benifit to deal with the class they are weak against.



yes it hits bloody hard, but why does it get that multiplier on the scrake exclusively.

• But a firebug can also use a microwave gun, which doesn't deal fire damage, to avoid the scrake's resistance as well.
• Was referring to;

  yea no, demo need at least that. your team wont always be there to help you out.

  but I may have misconstrued their point.
• Ballistic weapons are typically hitscan far as I remember. In addition ballistic weapons usually shoot more than once before reloading, during which many things can interfere with you landing subsequent shots. In the case of a single shot hitscan weapon like the railgun it is possible to finish the scrake in a single headshot without any need for reloading.
• Bypassing the resistance is kind of the point. I'm no gun nut but I'm pretty sure the entire design of the RPG is to penetrate and bypass armor. If the design of the thing is to pierce tank armor why should a scrake require more than two shots in the same area to take it out? Misrepresenting the weapon like that would be as strange as the 9mm doing more damage than the SCAR, the EBR having the spread of a shotgun, or even vice versa. Tank armor is actually kind of a good analogy when you consider that it is supposed to resist explosives despite the RPG, an explosive, can be effective against it.
• So how do you recommend a demo clears the trash around the scrake? Almost certainly requires switching off the RPG before switching back and that can add a lot of time to your "combo". On top of that I would say demo is only good at clearing trash situationally and even in the right conditions you risk raging the scrake with the splash damage. I'll admit this is probably one of the weaker points though.
• ...Which is why the multiplier isn't that big of a deal- because it's hard to line up good shots on downed targets. I mean, unless the multiplier made RPG impact headshots only take one shot at which point knockdown would be irrelevant but that's not the case here.
• Once again, other weapons on other perks don't have the unique combo of projectile ballistics, single shot, and knockdown on headshot(intended method of elimination) that all work against the favor of the RPG. The multiplier is to allow the RPG to down the scrake in two headshots because demo would have no feasible answer to scrakes if it took more than that, something that would kinda suck if you're playing solo or separated from your team. Yes scrakes resist fire but firebugs have a perk weapon that doesn't deal fire damage.

I guess a solution to reduce confusion would be to classify RPG impacts, impact explosions, and splash damage as separate damage types from normal explosives ala fire weapons and the microwave gun but then you would have to ensure resistances are synchronized for RPGs vs other explosives on every other zed currently in the game and to be implemented in the future so that they receive the same modifiers for "explosives in general".

This sort of thing also isn't all that strange when you consider a KF1 fleshpound's resistances could be per weapon per dud-or-exploded per body zone hit per current difficulty. For example, a crossbow would receive a 0.35x multiplier but only if it was a headshot and the difficulty was sui or hoe. My guess is players that were used to this kind of oddity in the previous game don't find it as odd for KF2.

 

[conductiv]

• But a firebug can also use a microwave gun, which doesn't deal fire damage, to avoid the scrake's resistance as well.
• Was referring to; but I may have misconstrued their point.
• Ballistic weapons are typically hitscan far as I remember. In addition ballistic weapons usually shoot more than once before reloading, during which many things can interfere with you landing subsequent shots. In the case of a single shot hitscan weapon like the railgun it is possible to finish the scrake in a single headshot without any need for reloading.
• Bypassing the resistance is kind of the point. I'm no gun nut but I'm pretty sure the entire design of the RPG is to penetrate and bypass armor. If the design of the thing is to pierce tank armor why should a scrake require more than two shots in the same area to take it out? Misrepresenting the weapon like that would be as strange as the 9mm doing more damage than the SCAR, the EBR having the spread of a shotgun, or even vice versa. Tank armor is actually kind of a good analogy when you consider that it is supposed to resist explosives despite the RPG, an explosive, can be effective against it.
• So how do you recommend a demo clears the trash around the scrake? Almost certainly requires switching off the RPG before switching back and that can add a lot of time to your "combo". On top of that I would say demo is only good at clearing trash situationally and even in the right conditions you risk raging the scrake with the splash damage. I'll admit this is probably one of the weaker points though.
• ...Which is why the multiplier isn't that big of a deal- because it's hard to line up good shots on downed targets. I mean, unless the multiplier made RPG impact headshots only take one shot at which point knockdown would be irrelevant but that's not the case here.
• Once again, other weapons on other perks don't have the unique combo of projectile ballistics, single shot, and knockdown on headshot(intended method of elimination) that all work against the favor of the RPG. The multiplier is to allow the RPG to down the scrake in two headshots because demo would have no feasible answer to scrakes if it took more than that, something that would kinda suck if you're playing solo or separated from your team. Yes scrakes resist fire but firebugs have a perk weapon that doesn't deal fire damage.

I guess a solution to reduce confusion would be to classify RPG impacts, impact explosions, and splash damage as separate damage types from normal explosives ala fire weapons and the microwave gun but then you would have to ensure resistances are synchronized for RPGs vs other explosives on every other zed currently in the game and to be implemented in the future so that they receive the same modifiers for "explosives in general".

This sort of thing also isn't all that strange when you consider a KF1 fleshpound's resistances could be per weapon per dud-or-exploded per body zone hit per current difficulty. For example, a crossbow would receive a 0.35x multiplier but only if it was a headshot and the difficulty was sui or hoe. My guess is players that were used to this kind of oddity in the previous game don't find it as odd for KF2.

-yes he can use the microwave gun, but it would still take a lot of time and ammo and would still be ill advised...the weapon is still "ineffective" in a matter of sense.
-maybe, the comment is very short and general.
-yes as far as I know most ballistic weapons are hitscan outside of zed-time, and appart from a few most of them have magazines with more then 1 shot. and as stated, only the railgun on a specific perk can guarantee the 1-hit headshot on the scrake. however many weapons have to battle recoil or have to land a lot more then 2 shots on the target. either way the difficulty of landing the second RPG headshot is as hard or easier.
-in real life it is designed as a tank killer...among others, in this game there is no such thing as armor piercing damage or well...zed body armor*...and well railguns would have a similar purpose, yet get none of the benefits against their weakness. (*metal body cages can be bypassed to an extend by the microwave gun, yet no other weapon has any advantage by hitting armored bodyparts relative to hitting unarmored bodyparts)
-stick of dynamite by pressing the "G" key...depending on perks all that is still standing would be stunned. or solicit assistance from the team to keep trash off you while you deal with a problem...there are plenty of options. how does a commando deal with a FP...clear trash and call for aid...the piont here is that the RPG really doesn't have to be effective against scrakes.
-it isn't a big deal..for me it just doesn't make sense...the RPG as a weapon would still be just fine without it, it doesn't need to be effective against the one target that actually has a notable amount of HP and explosive resist
-no feasable answer...well that depends on how you look at it. would magdumping the scrake while its running at you with the M16 be feasable (commando style). would hitting it 5 times while constantly knocking it down be feasable (knockback support double barrel) if "no feasable answer" means it would take more shots and/or more time I would have to agree. but I can't say that I agree with this particular part of the statement.

I am interested in why the RPG has that feature, not really looking for a solution...as I expect there to be a reason for it...however I highly doubt that reason would be "the demo really needed a solution to the scrake as unlike other classes it could not depend on his allies atoll" maybe it is a leftover from the introduction of the demo, because at its introduction there weren't a lot of anti-scrake classes around.

 

[oldmidget]

**** yall and your dozens of paragraphs.

demo isnt OP. done.

 

[Pavlov's Dog]

^^^ Agreed. It's strong. It isn't OP. It's fine as-is, it's fun, and it's hard-hitting.

 

[TacticalSpy]

^^^ Agreed. It's strong. It isn't OP. It's fine as-is, it's fun, and it's hard-hitting.

Reading this makes us feel it's a waste of time to write here? It's still interesting how less players see very skilled Demolitionists to confirm he's OP. I don't get why this perk and his tricks aren't famous. I think most players want to clean the low/medium zeds away. A Demo just can't care about all zeds because of his ammo.

 

[pie1055]

-yes he can use the microwave gun, but it would still take a lot of time and ammo and would still be ill advised...the weapon is still "ineffective" in a matter of sense.
-maybe, the comment is very short and general.
-yes as far as I know most ballistic weapons are hitscan outside of zed-time, and appart from a few most of them have magazines with more then 1 shot. and as stated, only the railgun on a specific perk can guarantee the 1-hit headshot on the scrake. however many weapons have to battle recoil or have to land a lot more then 2 shots on the target. either way the difficulty of landing the second RPG headshot is as hard or easier.
-in real life it is designed as a tank killer...among others, in this game there is no such thing as armor piercing damage or well...zed body armor*...and well railguns would have a similar purpose, yet get none of the benefits against their weakness. (*metal body cages can be bypassed to an extend by the microwave gun, yet no other weapon has any advantage by hitting armored bodyparts relative to hitting unarmored bodyparts)
-stick of dynamite by pressing the "G" key...depending on perks all that is still standing would be stunned. or solicit assistance from the team to keep trash off you while you deal with a problem...there are plenty of options. how does a commando deal with a FP...clear trash and call for aid...the piont here is that the RPG really doesn't have to be effective against scrakes.
-it isn't a big deal..for me it just doesn't make sense...the RPG as a weapon would still be just fine without it, it doesn't need to be effective against the one target that actually has a notable amount of HP and explosive resist
-no feasable answer...well that depends on how you look at it. would magdumping the scrake while its running at you with the M16 be feasable (commando style). would hitting it 5 times while constantly knocking it down be feasable (knockback support double barrel) if "no feasable answer" means it would take more shots and/or more time I would have to agree. but I can't say that I agree with this particular part of the statement.

I am interested in why the RPG has that feature, not really looking for a solution...as I expect there to be a reason for it...however I highly doubt that reason would be "the demo really needed a solution to the scrake as unlike other classes it could not depend on his allies atoll" maybe it is a leftover from the introduction of the demo, because at its introduction there weren't a lot of anti-scrake classes around.

Well at this point I don't think I can answer your question so I'm going to call it quits. Hope someone else can help you out, cheers.

 

[MisterM]

After completing all maps on hell on earth, and having all all perks maxed, i have to agree demo is overpowered.

Its only weakness is close combat. And unorganised teams. Thats about it. But lets talk about the demolitionist vs the sharpshooter in comparison. Bot are designed to take on a hvt-target. The sharpshooter deals with scrakes while the demolitionist is good against fleshpounds.

There are 3 different team setups in the game.

1. The unorganised teams are swarming around not caring about individual players and the medic trying to save the day.
2. The semi-organised team generally group at a holding spot and help each other, but dont care about kill orders (example: zerkers ignoring the sharpshooter who would be able to safely handle the incoming fleshpound, rushing in, dying the process, blaming the sharpshooter for not helping)
3. Organised teams.

The first team variant shouldnt be able to win a hell on earth match at all. Note that both demolitionists and sharpshooters are weak on those teams.

While everything works in organised teams, most KF2-matches are about semi-organised teams, having people loosely manage stuff via voice comm or something else. Lets talk about those.

__________________________________________________ ___

In semi-organised team the demolitions expert begins to shine. He can fill either gap, mass killing trash zeds or specialize on those scrakes/fleshpounds or even mix his role.

Most demos choose a magnum as their side arm. Assuming the demo is the designated hvt-killer, using the magnum they can land a single headshot the scrake from a distance without enraging them, allowing them to oneshot the scrake safely from a distance with the rpg. Using c4 they are able to deal with any amounts of fleshpound without any sweat. Also, the dynamite can reliably stun a raged scrake.

Having two demolitionist on the same team, one killing trash zeds, the other one managing big zeds, works wonders for any map except maybe catacombs.

__________________________________________________ ___

Then there is the sharpshooter. He can oneshot scrakes. Also oneshot fleshpounds, under certain circumstances, if he gets all rack'emup-stacks and also recieves those dmg buffs from the medic. Stuff for organised teams.

Main difference though, he has a very hard life landing a headshot when someone messes up. He can safely freeze the scrake to finish him off, but he wont be able to deal effective damage to a raging group of fleshpounds. In short, sharpshooter is almost useless when his teammates are raging stuff up.

Also he may be able to use m14/crossbow-build vs trash, isnt really effective this way as other perks can do his job better. He even cant reliably stun scrakes with the crossbow cause those guys love to parry. They rise their chainsaw if you aim with a sharpshooter weapon, but even better, teammates also love to keep their flashlights turned on, another way to activate parry-stance.

Having two sharpshooters on the same team is the guaranteed recipe for failure.

__________________________________________________ ___

So, the demolitionist can handle groups of fleshpounds easy while the sharpshooter is very powerful against scrakes. But there comes another fatal difference concerning hvt-targets.

Versus scrakes, players tend to shoot the head, making things easier in close combat for either perk. Also, the demolitionist can headshot the scrake from a distance and rely on his teammates to deliver the last bits of dmg to the head to finish him off. Also scrakes tend to come alone, but even if two scrakes are incoming, they can be safely picked one after another.

Versus fleshpounds, players tend to shoot the body, commandos and supports using grenades, etc, raging them preemptively, rendering any damage the sharpshooter deals to the head useless. Fleshpounds also have to be killed all at the same time or things are going to spice up.

__________________________________________________ ___

Funny thing though the demo has 2 skills which are only about increasing projectile damage (armor piecing round deal +50% damage on headshots, high impact deal +25% on body shots), working along the 400%-dmg-bonus of the rpg-projectile. So its truly intented for the demo to have either an easy time against scrakes/fleshpounds or kill all the trash while the sharpshooter really has to work for it.

Tl;dr:

Compared to the sharpshooter demo is really op.

 

[Buzzkillinton]

been playing demo lately..with the m203 it is quite fun, without the 203...nit fun at all. Boring and completely team dependant.

 

[Scrublord]

I am interested in why the RPG has that feature, not really looking for a solution...as I expect there to be a reason for it...however I highly doubt that reason would be "the demo really needed a solution to the scrake as unlike other classes it could not depend on his allies atoll" maybe it is a leftover from the introduction of the demo, because at its introduction there weren't a lot of anti-scrake classes around.

That can't be the case; the x4 bonus wasn't in the game until after they added sharpshooter.

Although, come to think of it, it might be because prior to that patch, demo was absolutely terrible, so maybe they just went overboard in buffing it.

 

[TacticalSpy]

That can't be the case; the x4 bonus wasn't in the game until after they added sharpshooter.

Although, come to think of it, it might be because prior to that patch, demo was absolutely terrible, so maybe they just went overboard in buffing it.

Your post hits the nail on the head.

 

[oldmidget]

That can't be the case; the x4 bonus wasn't in the game until after they added sharpshooter.

Although, come to think of it, it might be because prior to that patch, demo was absolutely terrible, so maybe they just went overboard in buffing it.

and then he was nerfed again.....

demo is fine.

 

[The_Pharoah]

demo is a bit OP at lower levels and early stages and usually has the lions' share of kills. However, when it gets to levels 7-10 when the FPs and SCs start to appear, its the demo that you really rely on to save you. On Suicidal and HOE, even the demo gets canned as the zeds require more damage to be killed. And as noted, its very vulnerable up close esp to those damned crawlers.

So no, not OP.

 

[Scrublord]

demo is a bit OP at lower levels and early stages and usually has the lions' share of kills. However, when it gets to levels 7-10 when the FPs and SCs start to appear, its the demo that you really rely on to save you. On Suicidal and HOE, even the demo gets canned as the zeds require more damage to be killed. And as noted, its very vulnerable up close esp to those damned crawlers.

So no, not OP.

Zeds dont have more health on higher difficulties.
They have less health on normal but on hard, suic and HoE they all have the same health (except for medium/big zeds, although the difference is pretty negligible)