[KF2 data analysis] Why AR15/SA80/M16M203 shall be buffed to 32 damage even at a cost

[Utopia-Phoenix]

^^topic

This is an interesting phenomenon I've discovered lately.
The damage of commando weapons are in a geometric progression with a commom ratio of q=1.25 and a base vaule of a1=25. That's 25/32/40/50/62/78. Every commando weapon except ar15 and sa80 fits this sequence. If the damage of thus weapons are increased to 32 then it's fit.
The perk passives of commando and "HP rounds" can be identified as 1.25x multiplier to weapon damage. This is equivalent as equipping the superior AR offperk by 1 level. If both equipped then it's 2 levels. This allows using superior ARs without HPR for other benefits in overkill conditions, or using inferior ARs with HPR as a substitute to superior AR w/o HPR.

******These data are based on assumption that AR15/SA80/M16M203 buffed to 32 damage******
******All zeds threshold are on HOE difficulty non-solo conditions******
******The damage listed below are POST perk******
Damage level 1: 25 damage. That's stoner offperk. Enough to 1-decap any unelite clot or crawler.
Damage level 2: 32 damage. That's AR15 offperk. No threshold on its own.
Damage level 3: 40 damage. That's AK12 offperk. Enough to 1-bodyshot crawlers or 1-decap gorefasts. Enough to 6-decap bloats.
Damage level 4: 50 damage. That's SCAR offperk. Enough to 1-bodyshot stalkers. Enough to 2-tankshot husks. Enough to 5-decap bloats.
Damage level 5: 62 damage. Enough to 2-headshot elite clots/gorefasts. Enough to 4-decap bloats.
Damage level 6: 78 damage. Enough to 2-headshot sirens. NO other trash killing benefits!
To big zeds it's pure DPS competition and thresholds are little to worry about.

NOTE: with a LV25 commando perk equipped, the damage of ARs in thus person are increased by 1 level. Example: damage of stoner/w commando = AR15 offperk.
with a LV25 commando perk equipped +HPR, the damage of ARs in thus person are increased by 2 levels. Example: damage of stoner/w commando+HPR = AR15/w commando = AK12 offperk.

In this chart you can see that although 32 damage has no threshold on its own, it is a bedrock of upper level killing effects. Nowaday AR15/SA80/M16M203 damage is 30. Playing commando with these weapons are simply under thresholds due to the lack of this 2 damage, and FAIL to benefit from upper levels. Without HPR a 1-bodyshot crawlers is still a go, but 1-decap gorefasts is no longer because of 1 damage short. Same happens to stalkers and HPRed AR15s.

To TWI: Please buff AR15/SA80/M16M203 to 32 damage from nowadays 30. If you are worrying about overDPS then lower its rate of fire, please. (Even a rof reduction of 100 is great to trade the 2 damage) Don't be short on this importantly 2 points of damage.



Also: I'm thinking whether SWAT should have his own threshold-breacher weapon. Nowadays SWAT weapons is competent UP to 1-shot crawlers with P90. For SMGs, if wishing to 1-decap gorefasts then it needs a base damage of 37. If wishing to 2-bodyshot stalkers then it needs a base damage of 34. I assume that these are NOT designated as SWAT‘s targets, so probably not.

 

[OmniXVII]

I agree. With the recoil on the weapons the more shots it takes to decap an enemy, the harder it is. A slight damage buff with a trade off for RoF would definitely be worthwhile for Commandos, and would reward players for getting headshots.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

I agree. With the recoil on the weapons the more shots it takes to decap an enemy, the harder it is. A slight damage buff with a trade off for RoF would definitely be worthwhile for Commandos, and would reward players for getting headshots.

I mean a tradeoff for +2 damage (30->32) at the cost of lower rate of fire, for 30 dmg weapons. That's AR15/sa80/M16M203. I don't involve other commando weapons.

 

[CJwarrior]

Why the AR15? Last time i checked, the configuration in game uses 9mm, not 5.56mm.

Anyways that aside. It is kind of interesting to see that with 30 damage, it is one(?) damage away from a threshold. Id like to see it adjusted but not for the AR15.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Why the AR15? Last time i checked, the configuration in game uses 9mm, not 5.56mm.

Anyways that aside. It is kind of interesting to see that with 30 damage, it is one(?) damage away from a threshold. Id like to see it adjusted but not for the AR15.

AR15 is a tri-shot/semi version of sa80 in game, I suppose. Although in game its model looks like a 9mm version, its damage isn't.
Whatever cartridge it fires doesn't matter. It's the weapon orientation. As long as AR15 is oriented as this its damage shall be the same as sa80.

 

[CJwarrior]

its damage isn't.

if i recall, i remember the AR15 doing like 20-25 damage before. Then there is a patch where they upped the damage.

Sure it's orientation is the same as the L85. But i think its better if you dont make the ar15 upgraded slightly if you buy the L85.

 

[Quadruplesword]

If the AR15 was boosted to 32 damage, wouldn't that make the SA80 obsolete? As it is, I rarely use the SA80 because it isn't enough of an upgrade over the AR15 to justify putting myself that much further away from the AK12. I'd be all for a buff to the SA80 to make it more of a worthwhile upgrade, though.

 

[s5yn3t]

If the AR15 was boosted to 32 damage, wouldn't that make the SA80 obsolete? As it is, I rarely use the SA80 because it isn't enough of an upgrade over the AR15 to justify putting myself that much further away from the AK12. I'd be all for a buff to the SA80 to make it more of a worthwhile upgrade, though.

if you play normie or hard then yes, l85 can be ignored but, on sui and hoe l85 is a must have as the full auto can get you out from a sticky situation and ar15 can be used as a backup.
+ you will still get ak12 on the same wave wether you save with ar15 only or buy l85 and use it..... There's just no point of not buy a t2 gun as saving with T1 tactic basically doesnt work

 

[]Bagheera[]

AR15 is a tri-shot/semi version of sa80 in game, I suppose. Although in game its model looks like a 9mm version, its damage isn't.
Whatever cartridge it fires doesn't matter. It's the weapon orientation. As long as AR15 is oriented as this its damage shall be the same as sa80.

Never actually made sense to me that they would add the 9mm version instead of the 5.56 nato variant....

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

if you play normie or hard then yes, l85 can be ignored but, on sui and hoe l85 is a must have as the full auto can get you out from a sticky situation and ar15 can be used as a backup.
+ you will still get ak12 on the same wave wether you save with ar15 only or buy l85 and use it..... There's just no point of not buy a t2 gun as saving with T1 tactic basically doesnt work

Yeah. Someone mentioned me this and I denied it. I DO buy L85s before high tier weapons.
L85/SA80 has 2 advantages against AR15. The first is its F/A fire mode and the second is its magazine size (30 instead of 20). The first is more important. Using AR15 in "full auto" requires constant taps. However, this is severely affacted when you need to shift your mouse rapidly (e.g zeds ran to your nose). It's either you dragged (failed to fire) or tapped, but missed due to the poor accuracy when trying so.

As with the reasons? Well, I play HOE. Without L85 you won't be able to carry enough ammo required for the 2nd wave. Also, when things goes wrong L85 has a MUCH GREATER chance of clear & retake than the AR15 due to reasons mentioned above. So basically the L85 is a must.

 

[Fok]

^^topic

This is an interesting phenomenon I've discovered lately.
The damage of commando weapons are in a geometric progression with a commom ratio of q=1.25 and a base vaule of a1=25. That's 25/32/40/50/62/78. Every commando weapon except ar15 and sa80 fits this sequence. If the damage of thus weapons are increased to 32 then it's fit.

Maybe that "geometric progression" is just randomly and tripwire never followed something like that (at least in purpose). Changing scar's dmg to 55, and stoner to 30 maybe proves that also. So now, only 1 of the 5 weapons (401 is a multi-perk) fits on that pattern and that makes it more like a coincidence, than a pattern itself.

And does this happens only on commandos wpns? Cause even on the smgs the kriss has 33 dmg. Thats neither 30 (same with that commando's logic as it is now) , neither 32 (as it should with the 1.25 ratio logic).

Maybe tripwire, just setting the dmg depending the rof and other factors, according the final DPS the weapons "should" have for them.

Or maybe its in purpose, and forcing u to use HPR (if u want that extra +2 dmg u need for the cheap ARS), by sacrifizing the bigger magazine. It make sense, if u think that HPR gives u more accuracy and dmg, for success that one killing shot, and the other skill just gives u the double rounds, for spend that one more bullet to success it.

the solution is simple: If u find it so important, then use HPR, or use better weapons than bullpup and ar-15 (u can hold two lvl 3+ wpns together), this "problem" in minor

 

[oldmidget]

AR15 is a tier 1 weapon, it doesnt need a buff. its been buffed to 1shot trash to the head which is a big improvement for original design.

i would like to see the L85 stepped up, but i think scar+AK12 are fine.

 

[Stanley]

Increasing 5,56 caliber damage by 2 will make commando way more efficient at trash killing (thresholds), while not making him big zed slayer, I think thats a good idea. After all, thats what commando is supposed to excell at. Why didn't you mention stoner 63a tho? It uses the same caliber as other mentioned weapons, except AR15, which should either get new weapon model, or minor damage reduction.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Increasing 5,56 caliber damage by 2 will make commando way more efficient at trash killing (thresholds), while not making him big zed slayer, I think thats a good idea. After all, thats what commando is supposed to excell at. Why didn't you mention stoner 63a tho? It uses the same caliber as other mentioned weapons, except AR15, which should either get new weapon model, or minor damage reduction.

The 1054 update had made stoner 63A to be 30 damage. Before that, it's 25.
I thought that it was made on purpose that stoner 63A has 25 damage. In fact ,25 damage is on threshold, which is the BOTTOM threshold. After the enhancement of LV25 commando+HPR the 25 damage becomes 40, which owns all the 40-damage killing effects.
Nowadays 30 of 63A is an awkward value. It should be either 32 or 25, not 30.

According to my experience on using stoner 63A:
The increase of the damage of stoner 63A to be 32 will probably make it an eligible T4, but I've not tried yet. (I don't have access to weapon damage modifications) Also, if the damage boost to 32 is applied then probably its ammo price should be raised to $1/round as well. (That's the same as AR15/SA80)
Before V1054, the weapon is ineligible as T4 but eligible as T3. Downprice it to be $1100 and kept the ammo price (or a bit lower) can be good.

As with the AR15, I havn't got a good idea on its damage. Nowadays its orientation is, although its ammunition denies this, the semi/tri version of SA80. As long as this concept stay unchanged its damage shall be EQUAL to other 556 firearms. If TWI decided to break this concept...whatever.

Talking about these reminded me the days of SWAT perk incoming. At first the magazine size of MP7 and MP5 are 40/30 respectively which obeyed real guns. Later TWI decided to swap the magazine sizes which broke the realisticity for the sake of "balance".
When I knew this, I sighed and is confused with "Why don't they swap the two gun models along with reload delays and other parameters while keeping the damage unswapped?". It's obvious that swapping weapons will keep matching realisticity. Also, the MP5 uses 9mm rounds which is also used by the 9mm pistol. If MP5 is placed as T1 and MP7 T2 then MP5 will have 16 damage. 16 damage is GOOD for 9mm cause 9mm pistol has 15 damage. MP5's 1 higher damage can be explained as the longer barrel of SMG compared to pistols.
Whatever, they've done this change, and I can do nothing about it.

 

[Stanley]

I agree about the most. When it comes to stoner, it was added as T4 weapon and it would be nice if it stayed that way, with slight damage increase of 2. As you said, its possible to ballance it as T3, but if that happened, wouldn't it feel too weak and not satysfying to play with? Keeping all 5,56 caliber damage equal and stoner at T4 is more logical and simpler, just saying.

I feel like devs themselves are confused with AR15, it is supposed to be 9mm carbine, yet it behaves like 5,56. They should make the choice and either lower damage a bit, or remodel it to look like 5,56 caliber firearm and keep its damage on par with other rifles that use this cartridge. 25 damage would do the trick for 9mm carbine I think. Myself I would prefer it to be 5,56.

Those are reasons I dont like SWAT. Too much "ballance", not enough realism. It feels like shooting LMGs with training rounds, not SMGs. I didn't really think about how to make it better, maybe make elite reload a passive, instead 100% bigger mags? Haven't really gave it a thought.

 

[Fok]

Those are reasons I dont like SWAT. Too much "ballance", not enough realism. It feels like shooting LMGs with training rounds, not SMGs. I didn't really think about how to make it better, maybe make elite reload a passive, instead 100% bigger mags? Haven't really gave it a thought.

thats a great idea actually. replacing bigger mags passive with elite reload passive. And for the remaining skill slot (elite reload), they could add less recoil or more dmg. An smg doesnt fit to have 100 magazine capacity, seems too much for me.

 

[oldmidget]

thats a great idea actually. replacing bigger mags passive with elite reload passive. And for the remaining skill slot (elite reload), they could add less recoil or more dmg. An smg doesnt fit to have 100 magazine capacity, seems too much for me.

that would defeat the purpose of them having the non elite reloads though.

for the most part, elite reloads dont have the same animation as the regular reloads.

 

[Fok]

that would defeat the purpose of them having the non elite reloads though.

for the most part, elite reloads dont have the same animation as the regular reloads.

indeed, didnt think about that

 

[Buzzkillinton]

If the AR15 was boosted to 32 damage, wouldn't that make the SA80 obsolete? As it is, I rarely use the SA80 because it isn't enough of an upgrade over the AR15 to justify putting myself that much further away from the AK12. I'd be all for a buff to the SA80 to make it more of a worthwhile upgrade, though.

kinda disagree. double 9mm, ar15 and fallback, on sui, is perfectly viable to wave 4. I use the sa80 every now n then just because, but outside of descent, it isn't really necessary. 1 more wave and you can get the am if you skip the sa80.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

kinda disagree. double 9mm, ar15 and fallback, on sui, is perfectly viable to wave 4. I use the sa80 every now n then just because, but outside of descent, it isn't really necessary. 1 more wave and you can get the am if you skip the sa80.

I do buy SA80 even without this buff to 32 damage, on HOE MP. This is because:

If there is NO support teammate, then I won't have enough ammunition to pass wave 2. I do fire my 9mm at 1st wave and the AR15 at 2nd wave, but their ammo are not enough for the zed quantity of multiplayer (you'll run dry at late stage wave 2). Buying SA80 is to use its ammo pool to carry the ammo necessary for me, and in case of "OH SH1T" moments.
(On single player I'd keep the money for AK at 3rd wave)


If there IS support teammates, then ammo is no longer a problem. However, support resupply packs grants ammo to all weapons in your hand. It's "first bought first served" which I greed.