• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

RO2 Some questions about historical RO2 weaponry

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Sort by date Sort by votes
M

Mazryonh

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 5, 2012
199
0
#1
I've a couple questions about the historical weaponry seen in RO2. I'd appreciate informative answers from those in the know.

First, if the DP-28 is based on the old WWI Lewis Gun, then why didn't the Russian designer copy the Lewis Gun's ability to mount a 100-round magazine? I'm sure plenty of RO2 players would have liked to be able to use a 100-round magazine instead of the 47-round version we're stuck with.

Second, why was the Nagant Revolver designed with a gas-seal mechanism? The round it uses is fairly anemic and wouldn't gain much more performance by sealing the revolver's cylinder gap. Furthermore, the gas seal mechanism means that the Nagant Revolver must be unloaded and reloaded one round at a time, rather than being able to load all its chambers at once with a speedloader or moon clip like modern revolvers can. This means that loading and unloading it is pretty slow, just like the more famous Single Action Army revolver (for you Metal Gear Solid fans, the SAA is the favourite weapon of Revolver Ocelot from that series). The way the gas seal mechanism works also means the revolver has a very heavy trigger pull in double-action mode, which means it's more likely to be inaccurate unless you practice a lot with it.

The only rational reason I can think of for making a gas seal on the Nagant revolver would be if were some sort of safety feature--most revolvers have a gap between the cylinder and the barrel where hot gases can escape, which means if you put your finger or any other body part too close to the gap, you'll be burned by escaping gas. This isn't an issue on the Nagant revolver, but it seems like the design sacrifices too much to gain too little (as I outlined above). Did the Tsar or some other high authority figure at the time of the Nagant revolver's design ask for this specific feature? Or was it intended to be an assassination weapon all along (it's very quiet when suppressed, even more so than a suppressed WWII-vintage M1911 because the gun doesn't cycle on its own)?

Finally, do machine guns in this game take longer to overheat when playing on winter maps? I would think that simply putting snow on the barrel of a machine gun would mean it would overheat less when firing, but I've never been able to test this in real life. Simply putting snow on an already-hot machine gun barrel might cause cracking issues too.
 
#2
DP-28: I'm not sure if 'copying the lewis gun' is the right way to look at it. Sure, they both used Pan magazines, but that doesn't mean the Russians copied the Lewis.

Nagant: Though the downsides are numerous, as you mentioned, I would imagine it was deemed worth it because of the gas that's usually wasted out of the cylinder gap. That would be, I'd think, even more important for a revolver with such a weak cartridge because it needs all of the pressure behind the round it can get.
Obviously, other revolver designers found that benefit to not be worth the drawbacks, or we'd see more of them.

Machine guns on winter maps: Yes, the game does take that into account. Pretty cool.
 
Upvote 0
#4
RoastinGhost said:
DP-28: I'm not sure if 'copying the lewis gun' is the right way to look at it. Sure, they both used Pan magazines, but that doesn't mean the Russians copied the Lewis.
Click to expand...

The Lewis Gun's 97-round magazines proved beyond a doubt that higher-capacity pan magazines could be constructed and made reliable. I still don't understand why the Russian forces didn't make their own 97-round versions; they certainly heard of the Lewis Gun and its exemplary performance in WWI, as it was the premiere man-portable machine gun of the WWI western front (not that there were many types of man-portable machine guns in that conflict).

RoastinGhost said:
Nagant: Though the downsides are numerous, as you mentioned, I would imagine it was deemed worth it because of the gas that's usually wasted out of the cylinder gap. That would be, I'd think, even more important for a revolver with such a weak cartridge because it needs all of the pressure behind the round it can get.
Obviously, other revolver designers found that benefit to not be worth the drawbacks, or we'd see more of them.
Click to expand...

I see, maybe I'm looking at this from too "modern" a perspective (since in today's times we'd just go design or get a more powerful caliber). I did a bit more reading and found the Nagant revolver's ammunition was designed so as to be the same diameter as the 7.62x54mmR cartridge, which could explain the reason why they went with such an anemic loading for a handgun bullet to keep the overall length of the revolver down (aside from the fact that the Nagant revolver's bullet is seated so far back in the case you can't put much smokeless powder behind it). As I said before, the 7.62x38mmR cartridge is basically underpowered, so you're not getting much more performance out of it with the gas seal. Now if were were talking about something like the .357 magnum, it might make more of a difference. Any one interested in just how much a revolver's cylinder gap affects its performance can read about it here on a specialized website where they test how much velocity is lost by different-sized cylinder gaps.

Now that I think about it, it wouldn't have been possible for the Nagant M1895 to have been purposely designed for covert work. Its introduction date predates the first sound suppressors (which were first made public in 1902). Still, the Nagant Revolver is undeniably a very effective suppressed handgun. You can see a demonstration video below for this:

Silenced 1895 Nagant revolver (NFA) - YouTube

The reason why you only hear a simple "click" as opposed to the usual "clack-clack" of suppressed handguns is because unlike semiautomatic handguns, the Nagant revolver doesn't move any parts after the bullet is fired. Other suppressed handguns (like the British WWII Welrod pistol) have tried to emulate this level of quietness by making it so that you have to pull the slide back after every shot, but this means that you can't fire as quickly. A suppressed Nagant revolver, by virtue of being a revolver with a gas seal, means that you can fire as quickly as you can pull the trigger while being as quiet as possible and without having to work a mechanism with every shot.

RoastinGhost said:
Machine guns on winter maps: Yes, the game does take that into account. Pretty cool.
Click to expand...

Does the game make spare barrels that are currently swapped out cool down faster in winter maps, though? And would it be overpowered if players could put handfuls of snow on machine guns in winter maps to cool them down even faster? If TWI made it so that assault rifles and SMGs could overheat in this game (which they can easily do in reality), putting snow on your gun (obviously only possible if you're standing within arm's length of, or right on, an area with snow) to cool it down could be very handy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
#5
Yes... when you swap out a barrel on any MG other than the dp (which you can not) the replaced one cools down.. Well actually would be nice if smg and rifles could REALLY overheat. Emptying that 50 round drum a couple times should start the smoking!

Like firing an m16 or an m4 on burst.. at about the 3rd magazine its really smoking. All the CLp is burning off.
 
Upvote 0
#6
Flashburn said:
Yes... when you swap out a barrel on any MG other than the dp (which you can not) the replaced one cools down.. Well actually would be nice if smg and rifles could REALLY overheat. Emptying that 50 round drum a couple times should start the smoking!

Like firing an m16 or an m4 on burst.. at about the 3rd magazine its really smoking. All the CLp is burning off.
Click to expand...

Actually, all the RO2/RS SMGs and the sole German Assault Rifle fire from the open bolt, which runs cooler than closed-bolt weaponry, but still isn't immune to barrel warping and the like from firing too much. This is not to mention that eventually the metal parts of the weapon might get too hot to hold (the wooden parts might even catch on fire). It would be nice to see overheating on more full-auto weapons, so as to discourage full-auto firing all the time; maybe I'll suggest it in the I&S forum here.

In any case, do any of the forum users here own revolvers, and could they go back to the Nagant M1895's method of reloading and loading if they were told "it makes the most of your bullets"? I doubt many would; a lot of us wouldn't give up their modern conveniences, and trying to get used to the very cumbersome operation method for the Nagant would likely turn a lot of people used to speedloaders off.
 
Upvote 0
#7
Mazryonh said:
In any case, do any of the forum users here own revolvers, and could they go back to the Nagant M1895's method of reloading and loading if they were told "it makes the most of your bullets"? I doubt many would; a lot of us wouldn't give up their modern conveniences, and trying to get used to the very cumbersome operation method for the Nagant would likely turn a lot of people used to speedloaders off.
Click to expand...

Yes I don't really dig that operation. I love the Nagant simply because it is strange and I hope someday to fire one; but I wouldn't want anyone to go making it into a modern design (although it seems like someone would come up with a way to use a swing open cylinder with a gas seal.) I'm not really fond of double action in general though.
 
Upvote 0
#8
mrsirr said:
Yes I don't really dig that operation. I love the Nagant simply because it is strange and I hope someday to fire one; but I wouldn't want anyone to go making it into a modern design (although it seems like someone would come up with a way to use a swing open cylinder with a gas seal.) I'm not really fond of double action in general though.
Click to expand...

I was not either... but some of these new fangled firearms are actually making GOOD double action triggers in production guns. Still....trying to shoot nice groups with double action is usually an act of frustration.
 
Upvote 0
#10
It's also worth remembering that the drum was entirely dumped after the war for machine guns as they switched to belts. Sometimes it takes a war to find out what's best.

As for the very dated method of loading the Nagant revolver, you have to remember it was designed in 1895. All of the decent reliable pistols we're familiar with now had really yet to be invented. There was no 1911, no luger, not even a C96. Everyone was using revolvers of various worth then. Hell even smokeless powder was fairly new back then.
 
Upvote 0
#12
45 rounds is enough?

45 rounds is enough?

FYI: The following video is a nice scene from a movie that heavily features the Lewis Gun, the DP-28's distant ancestor.

Passchendaele Ending Battle Scene - YouTube

mrsirr said:
I love the Nagant simply because it is strange and I hope someday to fire one; but I wouldn't want anyone to go making it into a modern design (although it seems like someone would come up with a way to use a swing open cylinder with a gas seal.)
Click to expand...

There are some "Cowboy Action Shooting" enthusiasts out there who compete with guns appropriate to the American Old West, including single-action revolvers with fixed cylinders. Some modern magnum revolvers also use fixed cylinders for maximum frame strength, but on a whole no one wants to be caught "with their pants down" laboriously individually unloading and then individually loading each round in a handgun. Nobody who survives long gets to be like Revolver Ocelot who "loves reloading [a Single Action Army revolver] during a battle."

Grenator said:
DP has nothing to do with the Lewis Gun, and even its magazine is similar only in its looks
Click to expand...
 
Upvote 0
#13
Nit picking alert!

No one uses semi auto rifles as their main rifle. Last of those got retired in the 1980's by a major power army. And that was probably 15 years later than it should have been. I am referring mainly to the British SLR. Or THEIR version of the FN Fal which they wisely decided to not have the full auto selector switch on. Lesser extent the French FINALLY officially retired their old mas49 around the same time. Although they had other weapons in limited service earlier than that.. If memory serves was the excellent sig510?

While I can say that most train US army guys go with single shot firing in "controlled" pairs... clearing bunkers is still trained with using Burst (if m16a2/a4/or M4 or full auto if m4a1 or I guess m16a3 which I never saw during my time. So for 95 percent of infantry fighting for an army trained along same lines as US with the remaining for clearing bunkers and maybe rooms being burst/full auto. Of course with full auto you want to fire bursts and NOT go stupid with it. A weapon like an m4a1 will empty its magazine in what? 2.25 seconds on full auto. And the results will leave much desired.

Of course OTHER Army's where marksmanship training is usually lower... spray and pray is a valid tactic. Well if at least TRYING to aim on full auto. The idea being that 40 guys doing that.......someone will hit SOMETHING. A weapon like an ak74 with its vary effective muzzle brake should with trained soldiers firing bursts threw that should have decent enough results.

But a soldier that can fire and hit in 1 round a man sized torso at 300 meters should kick the crap out of a an army trained to spray away on full auto. But up close.......all bets are OFF.


So these are MACHINE GUNS and not semi auto anything. Yes they can fire in a semi auto mod..or single shot. But you flip a lever and the sear is going full or burst. So by legal definition........a machine gun.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
#15
The 47-round drum works just fine, in my experience. It's annoying to actually reload in real life (your fingers start to cramp on the second mag, having to pull that spring back) but I have no complaints about capacity. Ideally you should have an assistant gunner to reload pans, keep an eye out for you, etc. Remember it's a light machine gun in the style of the inter-war years, most of which used a magazine. You might as well ask why the Bren or the ZB or a host of other weapons only had ~30 round magazines. The Germans were pretty unique in going into the war with a belt fed squad MG, remember?

It's simply a product of interwar design and doctrine. Besides, you can still drop plenty of Fritzes with your bullets. Add a lower ROF and firing in bursts and you will do just fine.
 
Upvote 0
#16
Mazryonh said:
First, if the DP-28 is based on the old WWI Lewis Gun, then why didn't the Russian designer copy the Lewis Gun's ability to mount a 100-round magazine? I'm sure plenty of RO2 players would have liked to be able to use a 100-round magazine instead of the 47-round version we're stuck with.
Click to expand...
DP is not copy of lewis gun. They even have different magazine mechanism.
 
Upvote 0
#18
RenzR said:
this movie is the worst pro-allied, anti-german bull**** I've ever seen
Click to expand...

You have to admire the comedy value though. The way they hold fire till the Germans are so close even 17th century musket armed troops would be dumbfounded. The way humans are tossed around seemingly intact by explosions, A-Team style. Not to mention the way people are thrown back by bullets hitting them, as if they stumbled out of an old western.

I never get it when films try and combine a dark gritty realistic look.. and then casually mix it with unbelievably unrealistic bits.
 
Upvote 0
#19
Flashburn said:
No one uses semi auto rifles as their main rifle. Last of those got retired in the 1980's by a major power army. And that was probably 15 years later than it should have been. I am referring mainly to the British SLR.
Click to expand...

I meant in terms of mode of operation. With some exceptions like the AN-94, burst fire isn't likely to be accurate above CQB distances and thus a waste of bullets, so except for dedicated machine guns made for suppressive fire or CQB fighting, the vast majority of shooting used by modern infantry is going to be semiautomatic.

Flashburn said:
While I can say that most train US army guys go with single shot firing in "controlled" pairs... clearing bunkers is still trained with using Burst (if m16a2/a4/or M4 or full auto if m4a1 or I guess m16a3 which I never saw during my time.
Click to expand...

Isn't clearing bunkers/structures these days reserved for specialists and/or avoided as much as possible by the use of airstrikes and artillery to just level a problematic structure? We mainly see structure-clearing these days by LEOs dealing with hostage crises and the like. A building is a great place to hide many dangerous things like booby traps and hidden shooters. Even a hidden man with a knife can be dangerous to a fireteam in the confines of a building.

Flashburn said:
Of course OTHER Army's where marksmanship training is usually lower... spray and pray is a valid tactic. Well if at least TRYING to aim on full auto. The idea being that 40 guys doing that.......someone will hit SOMETHING. A weapon like an ak74 with its vary effective muzzle brake should with trained soldiers firing bursts threw that should have decent enough results.
Click to expand...

Even manpower-rich nations like the old Soviet Union or modern China can't afford to waste their manpower or material resources indefinitely. But sometimes what a technologically inferior foe lacks in firepower he can make up with morale and manpower. That's what happened in Vietnam, right? The jungle environs made big sprayers like the older PPSh-41 more of an asset than a liability in an ambush situation.

Flashburn said:
So these are MACHINE GUNS and not semi auto anything. Yes they can fire in a semi auto mod..or single shot. But you flip a lever and the sear is going full or burst. So by legal definition........a machine gun.
Click to expand...

I was using the military definition of a machine gun.

Weekend Frontovik said:
The 47-round drum works just fine, in my experience. It's annoying to actually reload in real life (your fingers start to cramp on the second mag, having to pull that spring back) but I have no complaints about capacity. Ideally you should have an assistant gunner to reload pans, keep an eye out for you, etc. Remember it's a light machine gun in the style of the inter-war years, most of which used a magazine. You might as well ask why the Bren or the ZB or a host of other weapons only had ~30 round magazines. The Germans were pretty unique in going into the war with a belt fed squad MG, remember?
Click to expand...

I remember how the Bren once had a 100-round magazine option (mainly for anti-aircraft duty, but still), so to me the DP-28 feels increasingly left out to me.

Weekend Frontovik said:
It's simply a product of interwar design and doctrine. Besides, you can still drop plenty of Fritzes with your bullets. Add a lower ROF and firing in bursts and you will do just fine.
Click to expand...

Killing is one thing. Yes, 47 bullets is enough to kill plenty. But enough suppressive fire is another thing. Not to mention how squad cohesion is an alien concept to many players of this game, so having them resupply you in a timely fashion is very rare.

LordKhaine said:
I never get it when films try and combine a dark gritty realistic look.. and then casually mix it with unbelievably unrealistic bits.
Click to expand...

From another tack, this is what people are used to seeing in films with shootouts. Too be fair, there are quite a few cuts where people just fall down when fatally shot in this game.

I still don't understand how the Native American character was made to be the best hand-to-hand fighter in that film, though.
 
Upvote 0
#20
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Community News
Forums
Merch
Menu