May I have Your Attention Please!

[Lionel-RIchie]

I'm not sure what we said that makes you say that o.O

But I used an NIV Bible my entire life until a few years ago when I got a NKJ Bible just because I like the way Old English sounds

Edit: But then again...I guess that's your point, lol.

[BicycleRepairMan]

Originally Posted by MrBunsy

or as Douglas Adams very nicely put it (very interesting quotation that)

If you like that, I'll once again recommend his speech "Is there an artificial god?" which is both very funny, and endlessly interesting IMO. heres a snippet:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are some oddities in the perspective with which we see the world. The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be..[/FONT]

[stebbs]

Originally Posted by MrBunsy

God has 'proved' he existed to poeple throughout the bible, the burning bush, the plagues of egypt, the uh, big VOICE when Jesus was baptised and talking to Moses on the mountain top. Wether you beleive the bible is telling the truth or not, it shows that in theory proove that God exists does not stop God from existing.

I think you misunderstood my point. The fact that you are using beliefs as proof does not make it true, it makes it a belief. You can believe that the sun revolves around the earth, but that doesn't make it true. The bible is written stories, that doesn't make it fact, that is where faith and belief comes in.

I'm not trashing your beliefs, just pointing out that a matter of faith cannot be proven or disproven, and if it is proven, would not be a belief any longer. We KNOW that gravity holds everything down, and we KNOW that rocks are hard. People BELIEVE in god, or shiva or tree gods or whatever. Do you see what I am saying? So you believe the bible, that's cool, but it is a matter of faith, not fact. If a belief is proven true then it becomes a matter of fact. That's what i am saying. Does that clear things up?

[Conscript]

1) 20. I will be 21 in August.

2) I am an athiest.

3) When I realised that all organised religions were a sham, little more tha fairy tales for the ignorant, and in msot caes, methods of controlling people and taking advantage of them through fear of "GOd" or whatever.

4) N/A

5) N/A

6) No.

7) N/A

8) No. I don't believe there is anyone to worship.

9) No.

10) Because there's no-one listening.

11) Not particularly.
a) Not particularly.

12) Fairly. Although I think religion is a mistake and out of date since the middle ages, I can see how it brings comfort to some people. so I suppose that as long as they don't preach it to me, they can enjoy it as they will.

13) Evolutionism.

14) Personally, no, I do not feel religion is neccessary. People claim it teaches us ethics and morals; I say that these are possible without religion (Which in many cases teaches us bad ethics and morals). Science can explain most of the world around us now, and I feel religion has no place in modern society. Having said that, as Ive already said, religion does provide some people with a comfort and meaning in their lives. I, personally, have found comfort and meaning in my life without the need for religion.

[Lionel-RIchie]

Originally Posted by stebbs

I think you misunderstood my point. The fact that you are using beliefs as proof does not make it true, it makes it a belief. You can believe that the sun revolves around the earth, but that doesn't make it true. The bible is written stories, that doesn't make it fact, that is where faith and belief comes in.

I'm not trashing your beliefs, just pointing out that a matter of faith cannot be proven or disproven, and if it is proven, would not be a belief any longer. We KNOW that gravity holds everything down, and we KNOW that rocks are hard. People BELIEVE in god, or shiva or tree gods or whatever. Do you see what I am saying? So you believe the bible, that's cool, but it is a matter of faith, not fact. If a belief is proven true then it becomes a matter of fact. That's what i am saying. Does that clear things up?

I understand what you're saying here, but that's not at all what you said in your other proof. You said that if there was proof that God existed, he would cease to exist.

[Grobut]

Originally Posted by Lionel-RIchie

Yeah it is, even Christians don't like to think about that. NOBODY likes the idea of hell or anyone going to hell (except for people like Hitler, for example). When a lot of non-Christians think about Christian dogma referring to hell, they think Christians could care less (probably because they see the extremist ignorant ones telling them to go to hell, which no REAL Christian would ever do), but they have no idea how it feels to believe that your friend who will never believe someone unless something radical happens would go to hell.

But then again, there isn't much detail on what "hell" is. There IS the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man where the Rich man is basically in a fiery region with an unquenchable thirst where he wants Abraham (who is holding Lazarus) to let Laz dip his finger in some water and let it drip into his mouth.

HOWEVER, this could be allegorical. The rich man clearly is able to view heaven from hell. Could his unquenchable thirst merely be his realization and separation from God? Does he want a drop of not water, but the feeling of being in God's presence? Perhaps that is what the torment is. Imagine living your life vehemently not believing in a god, but getting to the afterlife and finding out he's real, but you are separated from him for eternity while others aren't.

We just don't know enough about hell though. A lot of our notions of hell and practically all of our notion about what Satan looks like froms from the Dark Ages, especially during the plague. Everything was going horribly for the people...everyone was dying, noblemen were taxing them to death, kings were corrupt, war...like most people they looked for a centralized cause of their evil, which is when the devil was born. Goat legs, horns, red, pitchfork, giant erection (sex was considered evil at the time, so that was added to his image...I'll admit, in my World Religion class it was funny seeing our teacher draw that on the chalkboard).

Well, i think you missed my point, i find it a grim assesment that people who do not belive in hell should choose to not belive because they do not want to take responsibillity for their actions.

I dont belive in any punitive afterlife (or hell), simply because it makes no sence to me, i dont see the point in such a thing.
If you ask me, punitive afterlives are a construct of organized relegion, a way to make sure the sheep dont stray from the heard, only when seen in that light does it make sence to me, infact, then it makes perfect sence.

But then again, i dont belive in heaven as a paradise either, just a transitory stage.

[stebbs]

Originally Posted by Lionel-RIchie

But yeah, why would you say something like this when you have no idea what you're talking about? :P

Actually this is rather funny, because I was talking in a philisophical sense about beliefs, not about the validity of beliefs themselves. So please calm down. I am curious though how you culd say that i have no idea what i am talking about, since it's a matter of opinion and personal views.

There is no right or wrong here, i am not attacking your beliefs or questioning the validity of your beliefs, but rather examining the idea of beliefs in general and pointing out the difference between belief and fact. You think that your beliefs are fact; fine, i have no problem with that, but please don't insult my views in the process.

Originally Posted by Lionel-RIchie

You said that if there was proof that God existed, he would cease to exist.

Sorry i guess i should have been clearer. The existence of god is a matter of faith, right? Ok, so if it is faith that supports god's existence, then actual proof would change the faith.

[MrBunsy]

Originally Posted by stebbs

I am curious though how you culd say that i have no idea what i am talking about, since it's a matter of opinion and personal views.

Mabye attacking you was going too far, but what you said did make you sound as if you hadn't got a clue.

Originally Posted by stebbs

There is no right or wrong here,

Now we're getting tricky. Says whom that there is no right or wrong? I believe that there is a right and a wrong here, which is why we've run into debate.

Originally Posted by stebbs

Sorry i guess i should have been clearer. The existence of god is a matter of faith, right? Ok, so if it is faith that supports god's existence, then actual proof would change the faith.

Right, that makes more sense. However, not everyone views it as that, there are people who feel they have actualy proof that God exists, and thus they don't view accepting the existance of God as a beleif or a value, they view it as fact.

[Lizardhands]

Originally Posted by Lionel-RIchie

What I don't understand is how all matter was originally created, but hey if you do indeed hold the secret, let me know!

Edit: Oh...and as to a reason to believe it? Well just you understand that not everyone thinks that all religious texts are completely and utterly false. And think of how much things change nowadays...new ways of thinking form, new ideals, etc...but many religions have been constant for THOUSANDS of years. Religion has played a part of humanity since its origins as far as we know and not merely as a method of explaining earthly and celestial phenomenon. I don't know, could it be POSSIBLE that there is a reason for that? A bunch of people did NOT get together and say "Hey, you know what I hate? Science. Let's start making stuff up and try to stop Science, because we hate it so much."

That is so unbelievably backwards. Religion exists because back then there was no science. People had no way of explaining the world or anything about it, so the only way of rational explanation, to them, was spirituality.


As we discover more and more through science, religious belief shrinks and shrinks. You know what we call that? Progress. We have evolved as much as we can genetically and are now doing so socially and mentally. Religion is dying out because it fails where science succeeds -- logic.

Secondly, the idea of believing in something because people have done before you is one of the most illogical things I have ever heard of. Why should you believe what your ancestors did? People for thousand of years believed in polytheistic religion -- why don't you? Religion has progressed over the years, and, as we discover more and more (you know what "science" means? It means "knowledge"), the science is taking over from religion.

The idea of "faith" is also illogical (I know I keep bringing up the idea of logic, but that's because I see modern religion as an illogical thing). Saying that one should believe in something despite a lack of proof, because of "faith", makes absolutely no sense. It is patently ridiculous. By the same (I mean near-identical) reasoning, I could say that I believe that... I don't know... Meatloaf is God. And he shat the universe out of his arse. I believe this because I have faith! Now you cannot argue with me, because I believe despite lack of proof! HA!


It is not that there are two sides and always have been -- it is a fluid evolutionary process, and science is the way upward while religion is the way to redundancy and eventual extinction.


Edit: Damn, I just read Bike's Adams quotation. He says it all better than I ever could. As usual.

[Lionel-RIchie]

Ok, first of all...Faith is illogical? Really? Oh wait...wait...I think EVERYONE KNOWS THAT, look:

faith ([FONT=verdana,sans-serif] P [/FONT]) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Check out #2. That is THE POINT OF FAITH! And no, faith is not the complete denial of science as you seem to think it is. I don't look up at the sky and say "Well, I have faith that the sky is actually made up of solely nitrogen."

And as to science and religion, and religion being created because there was no science. Yes, the age-old religions, mostly polytheistic religions were used to explain phenomena (The Chaldeans, the Greeks, the Romans), but because some did, does that mean ALL are replacements for science? NO! THAT is what is "unbelievably backwards." The only notion of science that the Abrahamic religions claims is the beginning of the universe, which are STILL UNSOLVED! How is Christianity shrinking and shrinking under science? It's not! There are not scientific advancements that have undermined or falsified the beliefs of Christianity, even though you seem to believe there are. In fact, many religions believe that a supreme being gave us free thought/sentience so we could try and understand our surroundings (SCIENCE!).

You say religion is on the decline. Yes, maybe in some areas, maybe in some religions, but it is also rising dramatically in other areas. Look at China, for example. For years they've been denied any form of religion due to the nature of their government. Now that things are becoming less strict, the number of converts to religion are soaring.

But please, show me science that shrinks and refutes a religion OTHER than the religions I mentioned that were explanation religions (Lightning is thrown by Thor/Zeus, etc).

And as to the reason I said brought up the "some religions have been around since the beginning" deal was to show you that, in spite of people trying to find ways to disprove them, and despite the amazing advancements of science and technology, they are still applicable!

And stebbs, I don't mean to sounds insulting, but the way you worded your sentence extremely weird.

But of course the belief in god is based on faith, not proof right? If there was a solid proof god's existence then therefore god would cease to exist. Since god is a nonphysical belief (no concrete proof) then the idea of god only exists through faith. If the faith was proven true, then god would not exist through faith, and therefore would not exist.

This would be true ONLY in a belief system where a supreme being relied on faith, but it does NOT work with the Abrahamic religions where God reveals himself to humans in several shapes, forms, and fashions. Yes, I cannot say what you say is wrong if that is your belief, but when you try to apply it to all notions of gods, I *can* say you're wrong.

[MrBunsy]

Originally Posted by Lizardhands

That is so unbelievably backwards. Religion exists because back then there was no science. People had no way of explaining the world or anything about it, so the only way of rational explanation, to them, was spirituality.

But they don't. That's the point. Christianity started because someone claimed to be the son of God, take it as you will. Islam started because someone claimed to have heard from Gods angels, and again take that as you will. Relgions don't start because a group of people get together and start a commity about how the world got here. They start because a group of people had something happen to them which caused them to know God was real, and they were prepared to and did die for what they knew/beleived/accepted as truth as a result. Would the early Christains have allowed themselves to be martyred if they weren't sure Jesus had been who he said he was?

Have you ever been to a real church meeting? Where people speak in tongues and prophesies are made? How about a physcic fair? or the 'healing fields' a new age festival? These are the reasons people beleive God is real, not because they beleive that their explanation-of-the-world is the best theory that exists.

Relgions may be shrinking as science explains things. All that's happened is that the people who follow the crowd - who do what everyone else does without really thinking about what they're doing - are following science and not blindly attending a church every week. The number of people who actually know God has probably increased rather than anything else.

[MercyKiller]

Originally Posted by Lionel-RIchie

I'm not sure what we said that makes you say that o.O

But I used an NIV Bible my entire life until a few years ago when I got a NKJ Bible just because I like the way Old English sounds

Edit: But then again...I guess that's your point, lol.

why kjv has old english too.. ye, thou , receiveth etc

Originally Posted by papasha

But then again, i dont belive in heaven as a paradise either, just a transitory stage.

sadly its a place that most of you will never reach

[Reddog]

1.) How old are you?
24

2.) What is your religion?
None, but I would not call myself an athiest. I definitely think there is more going on in the universe than our meager array of senses can ever hope to understand. But if there is something behind it all organized religion does not hold the answer, it is really just an archaic and outdated system of control.

3.) How did you come about your religion?
I came to my beliefs by myself, it's hard to describe why but I just reject the notion that a stuffy man behind a podium has the answers, I also reject the idea of putting faith in a document written thousands of years ago by unknown persons for unknown ends.

4.) Do you follow the guidelines?
(Yes, No, Only if it suits me)
Having no religion I don't have any guidelines to follow other than my own morals and ethics, and I believe that I am a good person.

5.) Have you read up on your religion (Bible, Koran, etc)?
There's no reading involved, but I have looked at the Bible and the Koran out of curiosity.

6.) Do you attend a place of worship?
You will see me at a church if a friend is getting married or someone has died, but it is out of showing respect for these people rather than attending out of faith.

7.) How Often (In a year)?
When ever an event mentioned in my answer to question 6 takes place.

8.) If yes to #6, why? If no, why not?
I don't regularly attend a place of worship because I have no religion.

9.) Do you pray?
No.

10.) why? Why not?
See my answer to question 8.

11.) Does religion matter when dating?
Dicey question, generally it doesn't matter for me, I am happy to date a girl of any religion or race if I find them attractive. But, if a partner tried to push me into their faith I wouldn't be happy, in fact if they would not relent from trying I would end it. I operate on the principle that I will respect your right to believe what you want and I expect you to do the same to me in kind.

a.) When making friends?
Basically the same as my answer to 11.

12.) Are you open to other religions?
Depends what you mean, if by open you mean that I can accept people believe in whatever their religion dictates, then yes.

13.) Do you believe evolution or creationism?
Evoltuion, why?
a) There is scientific evidence to support evolution, while there is no scientific evidence to support creationism.
c) Evolution makes more sense.

14.) Overall, do you feel that religion of any kind is necessary?
No. In fact I would argue that religion has caused more conflict and violence than it's worth. It also serves as spring board for exploitation, cases in point. The way muslims are exploited by thugs who manipulate their beliefs and turn them into suicide bombers; televangelists making money out of peoples beliefs; radical ministers promoting racism and biggotry under a facade of faith; the notion of missionaries and converting the 'evil savages' to the proper faith.

I also despise fanticism of any kind, and ignorance as well. I really get annoyed by the attitude of some people who will not even question a possibility that falls outside of their sphere of belief. Particlarly infuriating are the people who will take some obscure line from the bible and interpret it to mean that homosexuals should be burnt at the stake, in my opinion that sort of things is just rationalising your own predjudices.

That is not to say that there aren't good things about religion, it can be a foundation for people to come together and find comfort in life, but you have to take the good with the bad.

I thank you for your time
No problem.

Originally Posted by MercyKiller

a human brain can never understand!


So if your saying there is no god, and theres no jesus, no light at the end of the tunnel , i ask you what is your purpose in life?

I think the prupose of life is to live it...

[{YBBS}Sage]

Originally Posted by MrBunsy

Wayhey! someone else who knows about God's unpronounacable name! Although I'd understood it to be that we don't know what the vowels of God's name (in between the constanants, aparently they aren't written in hebrew the same way as the Latin alphabet, I don't quite get it) are, but gueses have been made and that's where JeHoVaH and YaHWeY came from.

Ancient-assed languages (the precursors to Greek, etc) didn't use vowels. Mystery solved.

Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

*snip*In fact, God *LIVED* inside of the Jewish temple,*snip*

So sayeth an old book that may or may not be fiction. You forgetting that there's not proof this happened?

Anyway, I'm not here to argue one side or the other. Just some observations.

It's not really something that should be argued, IMO. You believe your stuff, I'll go my own way.

@Reddog: I always wondered what the reason would be to having a reason for life... If there was a reason, there had to be a reason for it, and then... what's the reason for the reason behind the reason!? Argh, a never-ending cycle.

Why does there have to be a purpose?

You're right: Just get on with it, people. :P

[Floyd]

Here some of the brightest men on the planet pontificate about the galaxy, the universe and the beginning of it all.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/html/home.html

Here is some theory for you!
I feel for them. They have such a long way to go.

[Lizardhands]

I'm starting to think that the idea of "faith" was made up so that the religious could flatly refuse to listen to logical arguments...

[Lucius]

No, it is for people that can't except that all they are is dust in the wind and that they don't mean **** in the cycle of life. They need to feel special, important and/or that they have a purpose. For the same reason so many people strife for power and/or love.

And I am not saying this happens rationally....

Can we get back on topic pls?

[MrBunsy]

I thought this was the topic.

Originally Posted by Lizardhands

I'm starting to think that the idea of "faith" was made up so that the religious could flatly refuse to listen to logical arguments...

That depends on what you mean by religious. If you mean someone who attends a church every week because that's what they've always done without really thinking about it, then yes it probably is.

Originally Posted by Lucius

No, it is for people that can't except that all they are is dust in the wind and that they don't mean **** in the cycle of life. They need to feel special, important and/or that they have a purpose. For the same reason so many people strife for power and/or love.

That really doesn't come into it, I accept God because I've seen things he's done.

Here's a challenge to all you who say there's no God/s (of any kind) which might help show you what I'm trying to describe. Go to an open air festival, find the healing fields or equivilant. Go to a proper charasmatic church. Just watch and listen, then give me the scientific explainations for what has happened.

[Murphy]

If you have a problem or a "wonder" at hand then it is much easier to say: "**** research. It eats up time a calories. Lets just say some god made it."
Now, there are some people who want to know more about that god and why he/she/it did those "wonders". Its getting complicated now, so lets introduce a new rule: "You can´t find out nothing about the god unless he/she/it/ shows something to you and you may not even ask it to prove itself. And if you don´t believe in it you get killed after your death!!" "Any proves?" "Hey! What did I tell you?" "ok. ok..."

This whole theory is so crude and cheap that it is a wonder on its own that there are people who believe it. Better yet, there are people who think that if some real theories ["god" isn´t even a theory according to Einstein ("A theory has to be as simple as possible". Introducing an allmighty super-being isn´t simple, its easy and cheap but not simple) and Popper (falsifikation and stuff)] fail it could be taken as a prove for god.
Come on.

I´m not against religions or religious people, I just don´t see any reason to believe in them. I stated that in my first post in here. So don´t flame me.

Over typing this I forgot the name of the guy who posted the following, but someone posted that religious bad guys get more attention in the media than religious good guys. Suprise, suprise.
1.) That´s also true for non-religious people in news. Bad news are good news!
2.) It is normal for religious people to do something for the society since that is what they are preaching all day long after all. Going on a havok, however isn´t part of modern religions so it something exceptional. That´s why it eats up more time in the media.
No conspiracies here.

The cartoons with Mohammed on it are a more complicated story. You can´t simply blame the religion for the harsh reactions, because most of the muslims didn´t even care about those cartoons. Those who cared about them (some extreme guys), were not upset because they lack any form of humour (besides: those cartoons weren´t funny at all) but because it is forbidden to create pics or models of religious leaders in their religion. It was even forbidden to create images of human beings but things have eased up a little. Nowadays it is just forbidden to create images of religious leader, and Mohammed is their bigget leader, am I right?
So those cartoons weren´t just "funny" remarks, but they were lawbreaking (religiously).
Besides, when those cartoons were first released, nobody cared about them. Unfortunately the cartoonists were assholes, so months after the release they asked their local muslims for a statement.
Imagine me stabbing you and after a month I visit you to ask you how much damage I inflicted. I´m sure you´d be pissed.

Originally Posted by MrBunsy

Here's a challenge to all you who say there's no God/s (of any kind) which might help show you what I'm trying to describe. Go to an open air festival, find the healing fields or equivilant. Go to a proper charasmatic church. Just watch and listen, then give me the scientific explainations for what has happened.

Have you ever heard of placebo? Not the band - the effect. You can even achieve haluzinations by eating substances that are proven to have no effect. You just have to believe it. Same thing here. But it is a good example that religion is good for, at least some, people!
But here´s a challenge to you:
If there´s a god, why I have to come to a healing field? Is he too lazy for homevisits? j/k

Originally Posted by MrBunsy

Wayhey! someone else who knows about God's unpronounacable name! Although I'd understood it to be that we don't know what the vowels of God's name (in between the constanants, aparently they aren't written in hebrew the same way as the Latin alphabet, I don't quite get it) are, but gueses have been made and that's where JeHoVaH and YaHWeY came from.

The name of god was writen in the original bible but it isn´t allowed for Jews to speak it. In later version of the bilbe they replaced gods name with another word, so that noone can read the lords name unintentionaly (sp?). They mixed the vocalless name of god with the jewish word "Adonei" (sp?) which means as much as "Lord". I could be wrong but don´t think so.

[stebbs]

Originally Posted by Lionel-RIchie

And stebbs, I don't mean to sounds insulting, but the way you worded your sentence extremely weird.

Think of it this way, the church was the foundation for early science, deciding on the validity of early scientific disoveries according to the relavence of church teachings. For example, the church said that the Earth was flat, that the sun revolved around us, and that we are the center of all of creation, and punished anyone that said differently. This is fact.

So we know now that the idea that the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around us was just a BELIEF. Once the discovery was made and PROVEN, then the belief of such things died, because there was nothing to support it. The same could be said about the existence of god, because it is a belief, a matter of faith. Proof of such a being is a personal interpretation of what a person sees or feels, not actual proof.

God would not exist without faith. The entire image of what god is is determined through faith, so if we realize god as an actual physical being then the idea of what we think of as god would also change, just as our view of the earth and stars changed with discoveries.

These ideas are philosophy, not theology. These are things that were discussed long before a bible was even thought about by people like Socrates, and Plato. The fact that these ideas are still relevant shows their own weight, and no amount of faith to the contrary will change that.

BTW I have read plenty on both sides of this idea, so i do know what I am talking about, and even the most schooled theologians are also well schooled in philosophy, so that they can learn the balance of the two ideas and where they interract. This gives more weight to arguments of beliefs, instead of just the old, "Well the bible said it so it's true."

Reading up on religious beliefs is great, but don't you think it is just as important to examine where these ideas came from? Asking questions does not belittle one's faith, in some cases it reinforces them. But to never question what you are taught does not teach you anything, you just end up repeating others and calling it your own.