May I have Your Attention Please!

[MrBunsy]

Originally Posted by BicycleRepairMan

If you speak freely and express your honest opinion on the existence or non-existence of god(s) why on earth should people take offence? I am a blasphemic, atheist heathen, so what, if you think you've picked the right god, and believe the evidence holds water, then why "take offence"?The Idea that some subjects are too holy or sacred belongs in places like iran, not a free society.. in a free-speech country, you have your opinions, I have mine, thats the rules

Well, in particular I thought my comment may insult some Catholics, since I'm basically saying I don't hold their church in very high reguard. Even if it probably won't offend anyone, if I think I should try and make sure it's obvious that that's not my intention.

Interesting point about most people not caring about insulting atheists. Not something I'd ever noticed before, but I think you might be right.

[[-project.rattus-]]

Originally Posted by MrBunsy

Interesting point about most people not caring about insulting atheists. Not something I'd ever noticed before, but I think you might be right.

It has a simple reason: Atheists cannot be insulted in their "faith", as you cannot possibly violate any religion imposed taboos or step on religous toes. That doesn't mean though, that atheists cannot be insulted at all. I'd like to give an example:

If you hear "You are atheist, therefor you go to hell!" does not insult a atheist, as he doesn't believe in a layer of existence called "Hell". A faithful christian though would be offended by the statement that he'll go to hell, as he actually believes that hell exists as a metaphysical place in his personal univerese, which he would rather not go to.

An the other hand, if the atheist hears "You are an atheist, therefor you are an idiot!", he will most certainly be insulted.

[Warlord]

Atheist-Agnostic.
I believe that there isn't a god. At least not the incarnations of gods man has conceived. The idea of all-knowing, omnipotent beings that created us, who also can be bribed (prayers, scracifices, etc.) with all the failings of humanity manifest in their character, being the rhyme and reason of the universe?
Nope...too hard to chew.
If there is a supreme being(s) or that which those would epitomize as such...we would not be able to comprehend it at all.

[stebbs]

1.) How old are you? 28

2.) What is your religion? none

3.) How did you come about your religion? i personally don't care for religion in my life

4.) Do you follow the guidelines? They are more like my own guidelines, if they happen to be similar to religious reachings it's just coincidence. I don't make decisions according to "what Jesus would do".

5.) Have you read up on your religion (Bible, Koran, etc)? Only on the History channel

6.) Do you attend a place of worship? no

7.) How Often (In a year)? 0

8.) If yes to #6, why? If no, why not? Religion has no place in my life, I think I am too logical to believe what they say. I also think we made up god, the devil, jesus, etc. to serve our own ends. If there really is a god out there, why would he care about us? We are one grain of sand on an endless beach. Also, why is god a man and all the controllers in religions male? Coincidence? I think not

9.) Do you pray? no

10.) why? Why not? It serves no purpose for me

11.) Does religion matter when dating? For at least the one who is religious

a.) When making friends? no

12.) Are you open to other religions? sure, no prejudices here about faith.

13.) Do you believe evolution or creationism? evolution

14.) Overall, do you feel that religion of any kind is necessary?
For many people, religion is very important because they need someone to tell them what to believe and how to feel about things and need guidance in their lives. For those, religion serves a positive aspect that probably wouldn't be found elsewhere. I also think people should have a choice about religion instead of being indocrinated at birth because their parents are a certain religion.

As others said, this is not an attempt to start an argument or offend anyone, just an honest opinion, and i really like the posts i have seen so far.

The first discussion about faith that didn't end in a war, lol.

[Bobdog]

1.) How old are you?

18

2.) What is your religion?

Jewish (What, am I the only one around here? )

3.) How did you come about your religion?

Born into it

4.) Do you follow the guidelines?
(Yes, No, Only if it suits me)

Yes, as much as I can; but I don't buy into all that orthodox stuff

5.) Have you read up on your religion (Bible, Koran, etc)?

Yes

6.) Do you attend a place of worship?

Yes

7.) How Often (In a year)?

Hrm.....well I used to go regularly (weekly or more), but now I only really go for holidays, but then again, we have quite a lot of those.....so anywhere between...10 and 50 times (?)

8.) If yes to #6, why? If no, why not?

It's just part of observing the religion

9.) Do you pray?

That's pretty much what one does at a place of worship (at least in my religion)

10.) why? Why not?

See #9

11.) Does religion matter when dating?

Yes; the girl has to be of the same religion as I am. This is not because I don't like other religions, but because I only look for serious relationships (e.g. ones that could lead to marrige) and as I want my future children to be Jewish as well, their mother needs to be also (having two parents of different religions causes problems) and therefore anyone I'm dating needs to be.

a.) When making friends?

The only people I would refuse to make friends with based on their religion would either be

a. Extremists

or

b. People who's religion is primarily concerned with pushing their beliefs on me (Mostly Jewish-to-Christian conversion groups like Jews for Jesus (Wikipedia link, in case you don't know what they are) and the like)

12.) Are you open to other religions?

Everyone else can pray to whomever or whatever they like, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else (no human sacrifices, please). I don't believe in other religions, but other people can follow whatever they want.

13.) Do you believe evolution or creationism?

Ehh, well it's kinda complicated. If I'm sitting their praying, I'd be leaning towards creationism; in science class I'm on evolution's side. The rest of the time I go with that "g-d controls the universe and therefore caused evolution" thing

14.) Overall, do you feel that religion of any kind is necessary?

From a personal standpoint, I think my religion is an important part of my life. From a sociological standpoint, I think that people tend to look for a higher power to give them meaning in life. From a realistic standpoint, I think that a person could survive and function just fine without any belief in a higher power.

[Jules]

To declare yourself an atheist, you'd have to be a moron. One who believes in science simply believes that whatever has been seen up to this point is absolute and representative of what will be seen, which makes no sense. The wisest men of science are those that reckonise how ridiculous science as a whole is; it explains nothing, only notes past observations and makes them into "laws" as if things that were will forever be as they were. My father used to tell me he'd stop teaching physics the day a majority of his students would start following its ridiculous assumptions as if they were anything tangible or any way more serious than other beliefs of men: because rocks have fallen according to their mass and trajectory up to this way does not, by any way, mean that it is certain they will tommorow. I hate all these dumb ****s that quote science and its bunch of idiot defenders as men quoted ignorant priests before.

But then again, declaring yourself theist is even more ridiculous, as the beliefs religions preach are just as ridiculous, based on ****ty old tomes written by men centuries after the events they relate.

The wisest man would be the one who'd recognize he can't tell, and even then, he would certainly say that he can't tell if he can tell, because in the end, he couldn't know if the ****ty old tomes were right, or if by some dumbass absolutism of things, science actually held some water.

This said, I'm certainly not the wisest man. I need to believe in stupid ***** and I chose to believe in roman catholicism, because even if my parents themselves didn't, my ancestors did for ages. Gods can **** themselves for all I care, but the wisdom their religions bring is just as good as any other. ****ty, but good enough for ****ty men who'd rather be ignorant, such as myself.

I'm sorry for bringing nothing but my stupid comments. If I were smarter, I would've actually made this post worthwhile by answering the questionnaire...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Jules

To declare yourself an atheist, you'd have to be a moron. One who believes in science simply believes that whatever has been seen up to this point is absolute and representative of what will be seen, which makes no sense. The wisest men of science are those that reckonise how ridiculous science as a whole is; it explains nothing, only notes past observations and makes them into "laws" as if things that were will forever be as they were. My father used to tell me he'd stop teaching physics the day a majority of his students would start following its ridiculous assumptions as if they were anything tangible or any way more serious than other beliefs of men: because rocks have fallen according to their mass and trajectory up to this way does not, by any way, mean that it is certain they will tommorow. I hate all these dumb ****s that quote science and its bunch of idiot defenders as men quoted ignorant priests before.

But then again, declaring yourself theist is even more ridiculous, as the beliefs religions preach are just as ridiculous, based on ****ty old tomes written by men centuries after the events they relate.

The wisest man would be the one who'd recognize he can't tell, and even then, he would certainly say that he can't tell if he can tell, because in the end, he couldn't know if the ****ty old tomes were right, or if by some dumbass absolutism of things, science actually held some water.

This said, I'm certainly not the wisest man. I need to believe in stupid ***** and I chose to believe in roman catholicism, because even if my parents themselves didn't, my ancestors did for ages. Gods can **** themselves for all I care, but the wisdom their religions bring is just as good as any other. ****ty, but good enough for ****ty men who'd rather be ignorant, such as myself.

I'm sorry for bringing nothing but my stupid comments. If I were smarter, I would've actually made this post worthwhile by answering the questionnaire...

*blinks a few times*



*flicks a b00ger*

[Lizardhands]

Originally Posted by Jules

To declare yourself an atheist, you'd have to be a moron. One who believes in science simply believes that whatever has been seen up to this point is absolute and representative of what will be seen, which makes no sense. The wisest men of science are those that reckonise how ridiculous science as a whole is; it explains nothing, only notes past observations and makes them into "laws" as if things that were will forever be as they were. My father used to tell me he'd stop teaching physics the day a majority of his students would start following its ridiculous assumptions as if they were anything tangible or any way more serious than other beliefs of men: because rocks have fallen according to their mass and trajectory up to this way does not, by any way, mean that it is certain they will tommorow. I hate all these dumb ****s that quote science and its bunch of idiot defenders as men quoted ignorant priests before.

But then again, declaring yourself theist is even more ridiculous, as the beliefs religions preach are just as ridiculous, based on ****ty old tomes written by men centuries after the events they relate.

The wisest man would be the one who'd recognize he can't tell, and even then, he would certainly say that he can't tell if he can tell, because in the end, he couldn't know if the ****ty old tomes were right, or if by some dumbass absolutism of things, science actually held some water.

This said, I'm certainly not the wisest man. I need to believe in stupid ***** and I chose to believe in roman catholicism, because even if my parents themselves didn't, my ancestors did for ages. Gods can **** themselves for all I care, but the wisdom their religions bring is just as good as any other. ****ty, but good enough for ****ty men who'd rather be ignorant, such as myself.

I'm sorry for bringing nothing but my stupid comments. If I were smarter, I would've actually made this post worthwhile by answering the questionnaire...

... O_o

Of course we can't be certain of anything, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense to believe in something we actually have good, logical reason to believ in.

If we don't base everything that we do on the idea of constant, permanent scientific laws, which have been shown to be true for as long as we have observed them, well... What the hell should we base our actions on? Something that we can't see, doesn't honestly make sense, and which we have no logical reason to believe in?

[Lionel-RIchie]

1.) How old are you?
20
2.) What is your religion?
Christianity.
3.) How did you come about your religion?
Raised around it, accepted it.
4.) Do you follow the guidelines?
(Yes, No, Only if it suits me)
Yes, why not? More often then not, the guidelines are for my own well being and good.
5.) Have you read up on your religion (Bible, Koran, etc)?
Yes, I love to study religion in general.
6.) Do you attend a place of worship?
Yes.
7.) How Often (In a year)?
Usually weekly, give or take some...I'll say 54 times a year.
8.) If yes to #6, why? If no, why not?
Fellowship is an important part of learning or experiencing something. Alone you cannot learn as much as you can as with others.
9.) Do you pray?
Yes.
10.) why? Why not?
Who doesn't pray? They may not think they're praying, but every human being prays at least one time in their lives...though they probably are not willing to believe it, some may be embarassed about talking to something that isn't apparently there. Why do I pray? Well it's part of my religion I would say.
11.) Does religion matter when dating?
Yes, it's hard to ignore religion in any form of relationship, it usually is a large part of someone's life. If you end up marrying someone who isn't your religion, or has no religion you yourself are likely to fall out with your own religion.
a.) When making friends?
Um...not as much as when dating. Like most people, I like to hang out with like-minded people, but I'm not going to burn a bridge just because they aren't my religion, then again if someone is constantly trashing my religion...they're not gonna be my best buddy, obviously.
12.) Are you open to other religions?
It depends on what you mean open...would I change religion? No, but I do love to study other religions. Even if my religion was disproved I think I would pick another religion and follow it just because I like to think life is more than random meaninglessness.
13.) Do you believe evolution or creationism?
I don't know if that's a correct question...we see evolution every day. Microevolution. However macroevolution is still merely a theory. We don't know enough about either to say that these two are mutually exclusive, in my opinion. The Genesis creation could very well have been God pushing along evolution (Intelligent Design, I guess). I believe the Earth is as old as science says since I don't believe "7 days" is equal to 7 Earth days. I mean look how different days are in our own solar system...Jupiter's are 10 hours long...Pluto's days are 6.4 Earth Days long. Are we really supposed to believe that an omni-being is scheduling himself on one minor planet's time frame and not his original one prior to the creation of it? Though I guess you could say that Earth's time reflects that time. And where did the universe's original matter come from and what started the Big Bang? If matter cannot be created or destroyed, how did it originate? I say "Let there be light." I still see Creation as a gradual shaping progress set in motion by God. However, I don't really believe in macroevolution, no.
14.) Overall, do you feel that religion of any kind is necessary?
It depends on what you mean necessary. Necessary to survive? No. Animals don't have it, but we are so much more than animals. We are sentient. I believe religion has made humanity what it is today, and will continue to shape it, thus is necessary.

[Lionel-RIchie]

Originally Posted by BicycleRepairMan

This isnt directed at anyone in here in any way, I just find it interesting that we are always so concerned about not stepping on any (religious) toes.

I'm not sure what world you live in, but I find it that everyone LOVES to step on religious toes, even stamp on them. ESPECIALLY on the internet. All the time I see the "bitter athiests" who apparently have a chip on their shoulder and see it as their life goal to belittle and mock a certain religion (or all religions). It's like they feel they must disprove all religion...but if you feel the need to do so, are you really an athiest? And most of the time these people haven't had some "bad experience" with the target religion that they claim...most of the time it's something like "I went to Catholic school and nuns hit me with a ruler" or "One time this guy tried to tell me about Christianity" (Except hyperbole usually sets in and they use "crammed down my throat" instead).

So no, I don't think anyone tries to avoid stepping on religious toes, really. Look at what Europe has done recently with the Mohammed (sp?) drawings. The government involved had no clue as to why Muslims would even be offended because Europe is such a secular society. What about the guy putting the Crucifix in a jar of urine and calling it art? Wugh?

Let's not forget the bad attention religion gets in the media. NOW WAIT, I'm not saying that there is some "conspiracy" going on in the media against religion, it's just that the bad things that happen with a religious group are much more exciting than all of the good things. If a church opens up a homeless shelter, it may get a 60 second block on the local news, but if a member of a religious group goes nuts, they bring in experts and have panel discussions for half the day.

Edit:

But instead of having another eternal thing "start" it all, it might very well be eternal by itself, pulsating, so "restarting" every few hundreds of thousands of billions of years by itself...

Isn't this in complete violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics? How can the universe be eternal? I read about it in Lizard's article, but the author's means of refuting this was "well our universe could be part of some bigger universe that will allow us to be eternal." I call BS on that, because that requires an EQUAL amount of faith that religion does. /bonk

[BicycleRepairMan]

Originally Posted by Jules

To declare yourself an atheist, you'd have to be a moron. One who believes in science simply believes that whatever has been seen up to this point is absolute and representative of what will be seen, which makes no sense.

Declaring atheism is simply declaring you dont believe in god(s) it doesnt mean you believe every scientific study and theory out there.. an atheist could still reject all science and still be an atheist.

Personally I believe in empirical testing and studying, but that doesnt mean that I think science has all the right answers, Infact I view the belief in gods as basically old scientific theories, but I feel we have reached a point by now where we can say those theories turned out to be wrong.

[Lizardhands]

Frankly, the idea that believing in God is less retarded than believing in empirical scientific laws is just stupid.

[Lionel-RIchie]

But then again, so is claiming God or something supernatural does not exist based on unproven (or sometimes unlikely...universe inside a meta-universe? Wha?) hypotheses...yet people do that too.

[Lizardhands]

No, it's not, because there is absolutely no reason to believe it. How can you not understand that?

[Lionel-RIchie]

Originally Posted by Lizardhands

No, it's not, because there is absolutely no reason to believe it. How can you not understand that?

What I don't understand is how all matter was originally created, but hey if you do indeed hold the secret, let me know!

Edit: Oh...and as to a reason to believe it? Well just you understand that not everyone thinks that all religious texts are completely and utterly false. And think of how much things change nowadays...new ways of thinking form, new ideals, etc...but many religions have been constant for THOUSANDS of years. Religion has played a part of humanity since its origins as far as we know and not merely as a method of explaining earthly and celestial phenomenon. I don't know, could it be POSSIBLE that there is a reason for that? A bunch of people did NOT get together and say "Hey, you know what I hate? Science. Let's start making stuff up and try to stop Science, because we hate it so much."

[{YBBS}Sage]

Originally Posted by BicycleRepairMan

Declaring atheism is simply declaring you dont believe in god(s) it doesnt mean you believe every scientific study and theory out there.. an atheist could still reject all science and still be an atheist.

Scientific method and thinking does help atheism make sense.

Probably why so many religions are scared of it.

[[CoFR]BooBoo]

Nothing to be afraid of. Atheism is as valid a religion as any other, after all...

[Lionel-RIchie]

Originally Posted by [CoFR]BooBoo

Nothing to be afraid of. Atheism is as valid a religion as any other, after all...

Lol.

[{YBBS}Sage]

Originally Posted by [CoFR]BooBoo

Nothing to be afraid of. Atheism is as valid a religion as any other, after all...

I meant science.

Atheism as a religion.... lol.

[Floyd]

Originally Posted by Lizardhands

No, it's not, because there is absolutely no reason to believe it. How can you not understand that?

Look at the flip side. Why is it so hard to believe that someone may have had a devine experience? Just because everyone has not had one does not mean it hasn't happened.




Christians (and I would assume Jews) do not claim that their lives will be spared the trials and tribulations of earth. Nor do they use prayer as a bribe (that was a good one). Nor do they claim that life is fair/unfair or that it is pre-destined for every individual. From the beginning we were given the freedom of choice. Again, a lot of misinformation running amuck here.

Using secular world arguments to persuade a Christian against Christianity is really a lost cause. Trying to explain things in a "human" perspective or through human capabilities is a fruitless proposition to an omnipotent God and probably quite amusing to Him. This is the point that eludes the "non-believer".

To believe in any god requires one thing. FAITH. It eludes many a person.


Floyd