The new spawn on squad leader function

[TraXx]

Spawning on SL is important and I believe that it is fine the way that it is. I agree that it may be problematic given certain map types:

It is generally a necessity in larger maps with open spaces (spartanovka, fallen fighters, etc.) and mostly a problem and arguably ridiculous in a smaller map such as apartments.

I must say that I was not aware that they had opened up the spawning rules for SL and I'm still not sure that they have. At any rate, I agreed with them restricting spawning on SL by no spawning if SL is in line-of-sight of an enemy, or in an engagement. I do think, however that players should be able to spawn on an SL inside of a cap zone. If the SL is doing a good enough job of holding their own in there vs. hostile forces, they need backup. Remember, you always have the option of spawning back farther, should you need it.

For me, I do not feel that spawning on SL is a major problem at the moment.

[Nezzer]

Originally Posted by Poerisija

So you think all the fun in large maps is the 3-5 minute walk into combat? Also, SL spawn does NOT work if SL is fighting.

No, but it's an important part of those maps. It actually does work if the SL is fighting, I've already spawned several times on my SL when he was shooting at others. Thats not what I'm concerned with though.

It's just that hiding on a corner and serving as a "broodmother" has become a common tactic for squad leaders, even on the tiny stock maps we have now. Some squad leaders just stay hidden while his squad spends minutes spawning on him and attacking their enemies form behind.

I don't mind it much on small maps, but it takes away all the pacing of a large map. Regardless of its effects, you still think giving the option for mappers to do as they like with this functionality is a bad idea?

[Poerisija]

Originally Posted by Nezzer

No, but it's an important part of those maps. It actually does work if the SL is fighting, I've already spawned several times on my SL when he was shooting at others. Thats not what I'm concerned with though.

It's just that hiding on a corner and serving as a "broodmother" has become a common tactic for squad leaders, even on the tiny stock maps we have now. Some squad leaders just stay hidden while his squad spends minutes spawning on him and attacking their enemies form behind.

I don't mind it much on small maps, but it takes away all the pacing of a large map. Regardless of its effects, you still think giving the option for mappers to do as they like with this functionality is a bad idea?

Then it's not working as it should, IE, having restrictions. Instead of going all bandage-classic-treatment on a feature again, maybe just fix it. And not sure, though mappers should have control over how their maps are played out.

Mekhazzio: not if you play competetively :P

[Six_Ten]

Originally Posted by Poerisija

mappers should have control over how their maps are played out.

All we need is a checkbox to indicate bSpawnOnSquadLeader on or off in MyMapInfo.

[Nezzer]

Originally Posted by Poerisija

Then it's not working as it should, IE, having restrictions. Instead of going all bandage-classic-treatment on a feature again, maybe just fix it. And not sure, though mappers should have control over how their maps are played out.

Mekhazzio: not if you play competetively :P

Well, all this feature does is speed up the pacing of the game, letting most players spawn right in the middle of the combat with almost no punishment for dying. It does not improve squad coordination at all. Most people just see their SL as a mobile spawnpoint and that's it.

Originally Posted by Six_Ten

All we need is a checkbox to indicate bSpawnOnSquadLeader on or off in MyMapInfo.

Yep. That's all I'm asking for in this thread.

[>F|R< Sarcinelli]

Originally Posted by Nezzer

It's just that hiding on a corner and serving as a "broodmother" has become a common tactic for squad leaders, even on the tiny stock maps we have now. Some squad leaders just stay hidden while his squad spends minutes spawning on him and attacking their enemies form behind.

This, totally this!
I hate when SL hide behind the enemy lines and keep pooping endless waves of enemies on our back :$
I call that cheap tactics.

[Golf33]

Hardly a simulation approach really. Hard to imagine what SoSL is supposed to represent... The whole squad system doesn't tie in very well to the respawning design, though I'm not sure I have any better ideas myself.

[Sarkis.]

I had. In my Authentic Mode thread in Ideas and Suggestions.

Almost the same idea TWI was on, but got backwards:

Instead of Squad Members spawning at the Squad Leaders's vicinity, Squad Members that are killed in the vicinity of their Squad Leaders, spawn more quickly but at the normal spawn point 1 or 2... of their choosing.

Promotes Squad play, removes the magic factor, makes Spawn on SL not break many maps, makes upcoming transports vehicles more useful, preserves the same capping power increase effects intended for the Squad Leaders.

[>F|R< Sarcinelli]

Something feels off with the SL in RO2, in ROOST it played an important role not only with the smoke but they weighted in the capzones.

Everytime a SL entered a capzone you noticed it right away in the capbar, what had dramatical consequences on the way things unfolded.

I remember the first thing I did when entering/heading to the capzones was try to spot the enemy SL and neutralize him (what, depending of the conditions of the battle, would mean to let him out of action for at least 3 minutes).

In RO2 I barely pay attention to this anymore and even if I manage to neutralize the SL he'll be back to the front in under a minute.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

I had. In my Authentic Mode thread in Ideas and Suggestions.

Almost the same idea TWI was on, but got backwards:

Instead of Squad Members spawning at the Squad Leaders's vicinity, Squad Members that are killed in the vicinity of their Squad Leaders, spawn more quickly but at the normal spawn point 1 or 2... of their choosing.

Promotes Squad play, removes the magic factor, makes Spawn on SL not break many maps, makes upcoming transports vehicles more useful, preserves the same capping power increase effects intended for the Squad Leaders.

+1, amen!

[Nezzer]

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

I had. In my Authentic Mode thread in Ideas and Suggestions.

Almost the same idea TWI was on, but got backwards:

Instead of Squad Members spawning at the Squad Leaders's vicinity, Squad Members that are killed in the vicinity of their Squad Leaders, spawn more quickly but at the normal spawn point 1 or 2... of their choosing.

Promotes Squad play, removes the magic factor, makes Spawn on SL not break many maps, makes upcoming transports vehicles more useful, preserves the same capping power increase effects intended for the Squad Leaders.

Much better indeed. It rewards the players that stay near their SLs, making the ones that care about that reduced respawn timer to stick with their squad. The incentive for sticking with the squad would still be too little, but light-years better than what we have now.

[Randy Newman]

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

Many people got their way in classic mode, there is no respawn there. Fine, I never play classic because of that reason, I play realism as most in the community currently. Please play classic if you really hate the squadleader spawn feature.
Many are disappointed that classic isn't the most popular mode, but please don't try to force realism to get all the classic feature is. We already have that, and as said an admin can turn it off on a custom server right now.

Probably the most sensible comment I've read on these forums in a while. A lot of people (on these forums) are annoyed that Classic mode isn't popular.

Infact, calling it not popular is an understatement. Its pretty dead.

And yet, despite clearly and resoundingly losing the popular vote (player count says more than any forum poll ever will), you have people trying to bring elements of classic mode into realism.

You (the Classic mode advocates) got what you wanted. Unfortunately, most of the playerbase does not like what you like.

Deal with it rather than whining about it like petulant children.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

Many people got their way in classic mode, there is no respawn there. Fine, I never play classic because of that reason, I play realism as most in the community currently. Please play classic if you really hate the squadleader spawn feature.
Many are disappointed that classic isn't the most popular mode, but please don't try to force realism to get all the classic feature is. We already have that, and as said an admin can turn it off on a custom server right now.

Originally Posted by Randy Newman

Probably the most sensible comment I've read on these forums in a while. A lot of people (on these forums) are annoyed that Classic mode isn't popular.

Infact, calling it not popular is an understatement. Its pretty dead.

And yet, despite clearly and resoundingly losing the popular vote (player count says more than any forum poll ever will), you have people trying to bring elements of classic mode into realism.

You (the Classic mode advocates) got what you wanted. Unfortunately, most of the playerbase does not like what you like.

Deal with it rather than whining about it like petulant children.

Flawed logic. Did you ever consider there are people out there that prefer Realism over Classic but don't like spawn on squad leader? In other words: Classic has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Yet once a gain, someone manages to drag that topic out of the ditch.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by Randy Newman

Deal with it rather than whining about it like petulant children.

Silence you. The topic has had nothing to do with Classic Mode. We are speaking our hearts about a feature that is currently game breaking and gameplay breaking.

Don't think what Nezzer suggests or what I suggest is good enough for squadplay? Fine! But do not trash our suggestions because of this. They are steps towards the solution. If TWI wants a spawn bonus related to squadleaders, the way to do it is the way I suggested or some other way no one thought about yet.

Classic's way was turning the damned thing off, so if you advocate for true Squadplay, you'd also want it off, since it is currently a pure magic incentive bonus, that has no basis on rewarding any type of teamplay. So do not self defeat your own argument while trashing our criticism of it. It is highly hypocritical and inappropriate of you two

[TrOOper]

I like the way project Reality does it....The squad leader sets a rally point and then moves away towards the objective...The rally point or spawn point cannot be set up within a capzone.... i dont remember the distance parameter but it may be several hundred yards or more.....All spawning for that squad leader`s troops takes place at the rally point.....

The rally point can be destroyed by the enemy.....The squad leader can set new rally points but only one can ever be on the map at any one time...If the rally point is lost, all spawning takes place at one of the base spawn points...

I would prefer to refine the spawning on squad leader versus dropping it completely....

[Nezzer]

Originally Posted by Randy Newman

Probably the most sensible comment I've read on these forums in a while. A lot of people (on these forums) are annoyed that Classic mode isn't popular.

Infact, calling it not popular is an understatement. Its pretty dead.

And yet, despite clearly and resoundingly losing the popular vote (player count says more than any forum poll ever will), you have people trying to bring elements of classic mode into realism.

You (the Classic mode advocates) got what you wanted. Unfortunately, most of the playerbase does not like what you like.

Deal with it rather than whining about it like petulant children.

What I'm suggesting in this thread is not to disable spawn on SL completely in all maps, but to give the choice for the mappers to disable in their own maps if they want to. Please, read the OP.

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

I want to ask everyone to please consider asking TWI to fix the system of squads instead of asking to remove it. This game needs squads, and for them to be together on the battlefield, communicating with squad chat.



I ask you please reconsider. The squad spawning isn't a bad idea, it can improve gameplay beyond what many of you may have ever experienced. Please think what could be instead of what is on this issue, this subject is an area where small changes can still make RO2 much better.


You all want to be able to talk to the guy in the trench next to you, "watch that grenade" "he's behind you" "I'll suppress him for you, you move in and toss a grenade"....I know you guys want that!
With a fixed system that is very possible. If you use teamwide voip for these kinds of comms, then there is just too much talking. The only way to get the kind of experience I think most if not all of us seek, is to have squads, spawns, and communications all working well together.

Getting rid of the system in my opinion is just defaulting back to a legacy way of organizing multiplayer games. To me it is a failure of imagination more than anything.

To me that is not promoting squadplay; as you cannot be near your squad enough. What you propose is giving a spawn bonus it's a zerg-rush-bonus , a zerg-perk if I may.


Squadplay is not something you need to reward people for. It is rewarding by itself. A spawn bonus is a very gimmicky way of providing an artificial reward to make players do something they want to do anyway, but the game is just making it very very difficult.
People want squadplay. We have so many players with great attitude and knowledge of combat techniques etc. A spawn bonus is not going to fix you not being with your squadleader, if you just spawned on the other side of the map from him. Nothing can fix that.


I don't see how it is possible to "stay" with your squadleader if you spawn a battlefield away from him? This makes no sense to me? THe reality I experience in this game is that you'll be dead before you can reach your dear leader. So all the players just give up. That is the current state of the game; most people gave up on squadplay. While for me it is the only way I play, squad with squad voip.

I'd gladly wait double the time to spawn, if I could only spawn where I can reach my leader without dying.



PS
Many people got their way in classic mode, there is no respawn there. Fine, I never play classic because of that reason, I play realism as most in the community currently. Please play classic if you really hate the squadleader spawn feature.
Many are disappointed that classic isn't the most popular mode, but please don't try to force realism to get all the classic feature is. We already have that, and as said an admin can turn it off on a custom server right now.

If people can change whether spawn is available on a per map basis, then I connect to a server, and depending on the map, I may or may not be able to use the spawn system. That is confusing and inconsistent. Then I no longer hae the choice myself. Just using the server setting to disable spawn in a custom server is a much better way, and allows the players to choose themselves, by choosing a server with the settings they like.

Then all we'd have is tiny maps like the stock ones made by TWI. We already have few mappers, and taking that choice from them would make it even harder to make a good map. Spawn on SL on large maps would be a colossal mess. Tripwire shouldn't even bother making transport vehicles then.

Besides, I don't think spawn on SL improves squad play AT ALL in RO2. I've never liked it in the Battlefield franchise and I like it even less in RO2. It worked on BF2 because most of the time you and your squad were isolated from the rest of the team due to the size of those maps, so you wouldn't have much of a choice. Thing is, BF2 is a squad based game, while RO2 is a team based game. In BF2 you'd rarely see the whole team attacking an objective together, because everyone is scattered across the entire map, with kilometers between each squad.

That's what might happen if we have spawn on SL on larger maps in RO2. BF2 is like that because it was designed to be like that, with several objectives being capturable at the same time in most maps. RO2 is much more focused, with no more than three objectives open for cap at the same time.

You just can't have a game that is both team and squad based at the same time working perfectly. What you can have is a team based game with some small incentive to squad play or a squad based game with some small incentive to team play. RO2 tries to be the first, while ArmA2, PR and BF try to be the latter. I personally think team based combat suits WW2 better, when most major battles had hundreds fighting each other at the same time in open battle, instead of the insurgency kind of battle we see these days, that requires a more squad focused type of coordination.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

You guys may even be angry at me or something, and at the same time I am 100% sure that nearly all of you on the other side of this argument would agree with me after one round of a game on RO2 with the kind of organisation I talk about, and with a system that -I don't care how exactly- lets you spawn near your friends instead of having a xx% chance of being able to reach them.

I don't get it... the maps are so small, we already spawn close to all our team. The problem we are fighting against is that we already spawn facing our enemies all the time. Very close to the line. What we want is to not be able to spawn even closer or behind enemy lines. Magic Factor.

We want pretty much what you want, a tactical 3D voip based experience, with more freedom to explore the maps.

But the current spawn on SL is not helping at that. And why is it that we need to spawn close to our SL to be able to properly engage in squad play?
This concept, does not fit our tiny maps. And the possibilities it provides for larger maps also helps break them. Reducing a travel distance of 300m to a mere 5 meters, if your squadleader finds a nice place to hide and no enemies are in his radius affecting his ability to give birth to friendlies.

Why take a Sonderkraftfahrzeug, when you can simply teleport to where you want to go...

We are trying to fix the game by not being ever on the the mercy of the dreaded Spawn on Squadleader. A terrible feature that has nothing to do with squadplay.

[pipi long stocking]

The game is fine the way it is. Move Along.

only focus should be more maps, and vehicles to keep it fresh. The map makers are putting up their end of it.

All this trivial they should've, or could've stuff really is pointless. I personally really really hate the "war nervousness" or whatever it is called because it makes me miss a shot when i have it perfectly lined up and at the last milisecond my soldier "shakes in fear". And of course there are people here that like it. Is it a game breaker for some people? perhaps. but no game ever pleases everyone.

Do i want TWI to change that or does it bother me to the point I don't play? nah, I don't care.

[Randy Newman]

Originally Posted by Nezzer

What I'm suggesting in this thread is not to disable spawn on SL completely in all maps, but to give the choice for the mappers to disable in their own maps if they want to. Please, read the OP.

Yes, thank you for highlighting and underlining things. It really helps...and it doesn't imply condescension at all!

I did read the "OP" and I was not replying to it.

For the record, I do agree with the sentiment that mappers should have control over spawning on SL on their maps (see what I did there?) because certain kinds of maps are not suited to spawning on SL.

I was replying more to the general sentiment of the thread.

Statements such as these:

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

We are trying to fix the game by not being ever on the the mercy of the dreaded Spawn on Squadleader. A terrible feature that has nothing to do with squadplay.

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

Don't think what Nezzer suggests or what I suggest is good enough for squadplay? Fine! But do not trash our suggestions because of this. They are steps towards the solution....Classic's way was turning the damned thing off, so if you advocate for true Squadplay, you'd also want it off, since it is currently a pure magic incentive bonus, that has no basis on rewarding any type of teamplay. So do not self defeat your own argument while trashing our criticism of it. It is highly hypocritical and inappropriate of you two

Let me begin by saying that nothing I have posted is "highly inappropriate" or "hypocritical."

Your suggestions are "steps towards the solution" and if I "truly cared about squad play" I'd want spawning on SL off by default (presumably that's your solution, right?). Looking past the condescension in that sentence, if I read that correctly, then congratulations! You got what you wanted! Classic mode!

Spawning on SL is not "gamebreaking" as you put it. Its a good feature that does promote teamplay by helping squads stick together. Should the mapper have control over this? Yes. Should the server have control over it? Yes.

However, the fact that most realism servers operate with the feature ON does suggest something, wouldn't you agree?

Now, as far as your actual suggestion is concerned (the one that you want everyone else, who does not play classic, to have to endure):

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

Instead of Squad Members spawning at the Squad Leaders's vicinity, Squad Members that are killed in the vicinity of their Squad Leaders, spawn more quickly but at the normal spawn point 1 or 2... of their choosing.

Here's what I have to say:

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

To me that is not promoting squadplay; as you cannot be near your squad enough. What you propose is giving a spawn bonus it's a zerg-rush-bonus , a zerg-perk if I may...A spawn bonus is not going to fix you not being with your squadleader, if you just spawned on the other side of the map from him. Nothing can fix that.

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

We are trying to fix the game by not being ever on the the mercy of the dreaded Spawn on Squadleader. A terrible feature that has nothing to do with squadplay.

While I appreciate your altruistic efforts to "fix the game," I invite you to go join a classic server. The game is "fixed" there

[bobsynergy]

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

I don't get it... the maps are so small, we already spawn close to all our team. The problem we are fighting against is that we already spawn facing our enemies all the time. Very close to the line. What we want is to not be able to spawn even closer or behind enemy lines. Magic Factor.

We want pretty much what you want, a tactical 3D voip based experience, with more freedom to explore the maps.

But the current spawn on SL is not helping at that. And why is it that we need to spawn close to our SL to be able to properly engage in squad play?
This concept, does not fit our tiny maps. And the possibilities it provides for larger maps also helps break them. Reducing a travel distance of 300m to a mere 5 meters, if your squadleader finds a nice place to hide and no enemies are in his radius affecting his ability to give birth to friendlies.

Why take a Sonderkraftfahrzeug, when you can simply teleport to where you want to go...

We are trying to fix the game by not being ever on the the mercy of the dreaded Spawn on Squadleader. A terrible feature that has nothing to do with squadplay.

This

It takes away the penalty of death also, I have had plenty of times where I died from being an idiot but then I can easily just spawn on my Squad Leader and be back exactly where I am. Basically making what that enemy did useless and me not really caring about death.

Even not removing it and making it a mappers option is a good idea, on Grumstation today (which is like Baskova for those who haven't played Grumstation yet), the beginning the Russians have a great defensive position where they can force the Germans into running around the edges by placing artillery, and can lay down fire with tons of Riflemen far away with a sniper and some MGs. Even making it into the trenches you have other Riflemen and Assault troops. With Spawn on SL, having an SL get into there by chance, I can easily skip right by the Russian defence and spawn right into trench safety which isn't really rewarding as I think anyone can agree, escaping death by getting to those trenches with team work is a lot more rewarding then teleporting in.

The Russians are trying to defend against advancing Germans, not teleporting ones.