My take on the map changes, and a few ideas to make them play better.

[Choice]

These are a few of my cents on the maps since the update and a some map improvement thoughts I have had while playing on them that would give them that tang that I think they could use.

- Grain Elevator- is now way too easy for the Axis- There are less windows for them to look at and take fire from, and now that they have even more cover it is even easier for them to start riddling through the line, getting into the fire escape, which then covers B, and allows even further penetration -- So when they capture and secure B they are also instantly grabbing C, which then instantly cascades into D second floor and the map is over.

I am not really clear as to why so much tweaking in favor of the attacker was done on a map that the attackers win the majority of the time anyway- Before the update -If the Allies do not hold A, they may as well get up and make some food, chances were that once the Germans secured A, they could pinch off B with ease by going into the Construction site which due to how fast a skilled German team could take A, could hardly be reinforced by dead allies re-spawning at spawn point 2 (while Russians still hold A).. And with how easy it is for the Germans to get into the second floor conveyor belt room from the securing the A position, they can cascade the capzones- Which is how it was before the update, and now its even easier for them to capture A.

I mean if you give the Gemans that many advantages- perhaps take away some of their EASE of penetration past A, so the Allies can actually hold some sort of front. removing that A side Fire Escape that allow the Germans to get into the 2,3,4,5 floors of the main building would probably slow them down a bit. They should not have so many backdoors.

It also does not make any sense for the allies to board their windows up with doors and rubbish, How about some Sandbag bunkers?.. so the sight is limited but the window is not rendered useless?

That part seems ad hoc, just so the Germans have less windows to look at, meaning they can utilize more head down running, instead of SL' and TL's tossing their smoke in unison and the rest of the team works together.. Those that do not.. die.

I see no reason to make life easier on them, or myself when I get a hair up my but to go rogue.

In fact... that is part of the fun of going rogue.

-Mamayev...

My critique of Mamayev was never about reinforcements, and actually due to playing it more than enough, it started to develop into a map I had a damn hardened will to win on- Winning on it felt good... now not so much.

I am not a fan of giving the Allies more reinforcements to fix that map, as it takes away the satisfaction of the Allies actually winning that map, and in my view fails to address the root issues with that map in the first place.

What about this?

- Take away the added allied reinforcement, add to German reinforcement.
- Restructure the Trenches so they are actually DEFENSIVE and not a highlight for the allies getting gut shot in the trenches, more sandbags on the enemy facing lip of the trenches would go a long way for them being cover.
- Allies should not have to run over open ground to get to their defensive positions make the map flow better for the Allies, make the trenches have access tunnels that can be blown by a sapper or at the order of a Commander... a few of those new and sorta out of place fancy-like tunnels on Pavlov could be utilized on Mamayev with great result, they are nice and deep with a few shooting zones.

- However, you could save yourself some work and just remove the 90% of the SNOW on the ground! Not only was most of the Battle fought in the Late Summer, Fall... But when it did become winter most of the snow was melted off, and the earth of the hill remained black from fires and artillery bombardment. I actually think having the snow in patches and edges of snow contrasted against the black earth of the hill would go a very long way to allowing the allies to blend in as well as the Germans currently do, as it is now Allies are often little glowing breaks in the snow to shoot at with severe frequency, and the Germans are ghosts.

- Another thing that would greatly improve that map IMO would be to remove the full moon. With it the Allies GLOW and the Germans melt into the horizon.
If it is going to be a night battle, how about a moonless night... Where the only light sources are from burning buildings, tanks, cars... and Flares, Allies don't really need Katuscha rockets in fact when a commander calls those in it is pretty much a guaranteed German win, lend up some mortar flare support instead on a 2 minute cooldown, that would give the Commander something to do besides get his face shot off.

-Also replace smoke grenades with smaller flares that SL's and TL's can use, that would make Mamayev have a more ominous atmosphere for a battle in my book.

I would like to also see how the map would look in the daytime, or morning, with the snow removal of course.

Pavlov's -

I am going to have to do more running around on that map, but what I have seen so far is ok. I wish we had more sewer tunnels instead of trenches... that new trench that leads into the B basement seems out of place, Yes I know.. too many people don't understand that they can get to C via the basement of B so that funnels them, and at least more folks might wander into it instead of going through that blown out corner of the building.

Barracks -

Seems a bit more matured now...

[Korn-Y]

What you say about Grain Elevator is wrong for Classic mode.

In classic mode on Grain Elevator, since the Big Update, I have seen Germans win something like two or three times. I think you are talking about Grain Elevator in Realism, with that athletic sprint

But I agree - It was always (very often) the case before the Big Update - when the Germans are inside the grain elevator, nobody can stop them. Cap zones inside the G. elevator might be more defensible for the Russians or better spawns...



I played few rounds today on Mamayev, and I felt like the map was good now, we (Axis) worked well and lost because we didn't have enough time at the last objective, but Russian defended well. Yeah the trenches aren't very defensive, but the maps looks fair now (In Classic) so why change it again ?
-It would be nice to have an another version of the map "SummerMamayev" with less trenches (sort of before-after map)
-The two night maps (Barracks and Mama') are 'full moon'. I agree that's pretty bad to do not have more darker night map in game



Pavlov & Baracks
Not much to tell, I don't have played much but it looks right.

[Sarkis.]

Instead of full moon I think another approach would be random or commander called flares. And maps that have full moon or partially should only be in the cases when the battles took place with full moon, ( day of the battle, part of the month, easy to research)

[Nezzer]

Yeah, night maps are just day maps with a dark skybox. You can see everything. About Grain Elevator, I think those ladders on the elevator right next to A should be removed. There are too many ways to get inside the elevator. I also think the construction site and the third floor should be objectives. With those changes, they could add some 15 minutes to the map.

[Sarkis.]

The stairs on the left side are not the only path, there is also the crates which you can climb and access the building. So perhaps taking both out, since is too much of a shortcut for the attackers, you'd think defenders would have destroyed those stairs, if not, The constant tank and arty fire probably would.

[[Mad_Murdock]]

Originally Posted by Choice

- Restructure the Trenches so they are actually DEFENSIVE and not a highlight for the allies getting gut shot in the trenches, more sandbags on the enemy facing lip of the trenches would go a long way for them being cover.
- Allies should not have to run over open ground to get to their defensive positions

See, these things have been bothering me from the get go on this map. The trenches on A and B serve practically nil defensive purpose, just easier ways for Axis to get to A, even though they have plenty of cover as it is, a lot of tanks and trucks, and broken walls etc. on that side of C. Allies, on the other hand also have to run over a hill crest to get to their FIRST defensive position, A. This makes zero sense whatsoever.

Also, when you get to D and E. There is not a single tank, wall or truck to be seen, just flat open ground all the way up to C. Also, I am pretty sure Axis spawn closer to objectives on this map in general, but this is just conjecture.

I am not saying the map is impossible for Allies, I've seen it done, it just doesn't play RIGHT, at all.

[Grenator]

Originally Posted by Choice

- Restructure the Trenches so they are actually DEFENSIVE and not a highlight for the allies getting gut shot in the trenches, more sandbags on the enemy facing lip of the trenches would go a long way for them being cover.
- Allies should not have to run over open ground to get to their defensive positions make the map flow better for the Allies, make the trenches have access tunnels that can be blown by a sapper or at the order of a Commander... a few

Fortification lines in MK have always struck me as horrendously incompetently done, being disconnected pieces of a labyrinth that faces who-knows-where.

1) No real breastworks. I don't know where the soil they had taken out to make the trenches went, but had it been a real Soviet (or German) trench there would be nice breastworks on both faces (taller and longer one -- in enemy's direction), that would turn a rather shallow trench into a piece of fortification that allows fire while standing. No sandbag walls, please: they're wasteful (bags and fabrics are needed elsewhere), they require much more work to make, they offer little to none additional protection, and they're harder to camouflage.

2) No communication trenches. I can understand if there are gaps between frontline trenches (say, there's an obstacle between them, or something that prevents digging), but how would people there safely get food and water and ammo, send away the wounded and, if possible, the dead, how would they receive orders if cable communication goes down. What about (ahem) reinforcements? A perpendicular 1m deep (or deeper if there is time and necessity) trench leading to posterior positions is a must in any defensive line.

However, since the fortifications in MK seem to have been made well in advance (hello, concrete bunkers), an underground tunnel would be well possible, so I agree with the OP. I would also like to see Soviet engineers being more useful on this map: blowing up the tunnels should do the trick.

The fact that there are no such trenches makes the presence of barbed wire constructions between the lines (otherwise quite effective if correctly placed and covered with machinegun fire) ridiculously backfire at the Soviets, as they often have to maneuver between them spending much more time in the open.

3) Concrete bunkers than are not covered with earth and not camouflaged, especially that large one which is still unaccountably intact. Without proper cover, they are perfect targets for enemy bombers. Also, where the soil taken out of the ground to place these bunkers has gone? There is a substantial amount of it and it's standard practice to use it to cover the bunker in a certain way that it provides additional protection and facilitates camouflage. A pillbox that is easy to notice (especially from the air) fails before it makes the first shot at the enemy.

4) No slit shelters: these are rather small shelters (essentially deep niches) that branch off of the main thrench line and are supposed to provide immediate shelter to a squad of soldiers (if correctly done, they should be able to withstand 120mm shells). On the scale of the map, there should be several on each line, and since this is a defensive line built in advance, they MUST be there, it's a regulation procedure, and obviously there was enough time to dig them.

5) Where are all the toilets?!

[Nikita]

One thing to keep in mind about the fortifications on Mamayev is that by the time of the winter battle in-game, the axis of the German attack has shifted. In addition, some of the original fortifications on the hill are German, and were dug facing Russian lines. I can't find the exact post, but DrGuppy has said that he took the historic fortifications dug into account, and that they are not always optimally facing the enemy during this particular engagement.

Grenator has a point about the bunkers, latrines, slit shelters, and breastworks, however. That said, I'm just glad they came up with a real way to do trenches in-game instead of the right-angle wide trenches we see on, say, Spartanovka or Barracks.

As for balance, a lot of Allied teams simply don't play the map right. After the initial spawn, reinforcements often ignore the capzones, defending from well back of A and B, leading to a quick capture for both. Smoke is rarely used to bring Soviet reinforcements up to the battle, when in fact this is a key tactic on the map. And when B is contested, I have seen wave after wave of idiotic players exiting the spawn bunker through that murder hole facing German lines, only to get mowed down time and time again.

Give me a half-competent Allied team that doesn't make the above mistakes, and the map will be far more of an even fight.

Haven't played the new Grain Elevator yet, so I can't judge there. Am of the opinion that the Germans needed some more cover from which to shoot at the elevator from the construction yard area, though.

[Grenator]

Originally Posted by Nikita

Grenator has a point about the bunkers, latrines, slit shelters, and breastworks, however. That said, I'm just glad they came up with a real way to do trenches in-game instead of the right-angle wide trenches we see on, say, Spartanovka or Barracks.

Yeah, these wide trenches are really weird, as if they come from a world without mortars and fragmentation shells (they do indeed resemble late 19-century infantry trenches: http://army.armor.kiev.ua/fort/rus-okop-1897-b-97.jpg).