The Panzer IV is the new T-34

[Altus]

The Kwk40 actually almost always penetrates the T34 front, it just doesn't do any critical damage when it doesn't hit any critical components. So make sure you are hitting either crew, fuel or ammo before starting to complain about the T34 being too strong.

Aim for the lower hull an you'll almost always hit the ammo in the bottom center.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by Altus

The Kwk40 actually almost always penetrates the T34 front

Not in this game it doesn't. Only with proper vertical angling of the T34's glacis giving an advantage to the PZ4.

And I have participated in well too many matches against good tankers using both tanks. The 34 is slightly superior right now. Simply because good tankers will generally take 1 or 2 shots to finish a Panzer, and the same cannot be done against the 34, in normal frontal conditions.

To be even more frank. It feels as if the Panzer has magical bonus when fighting at a distance and to win the probability of a bounce. As if the increased angle it's rounds impacts the T34 glacis is enough to make up for the increased distance. Battleship kind of stuff... the armor can take horizontal hits very well, but shots coming from above pierce the deck with impunity.

But Gumrak is such a mess, that is very possible that I was engaging T34s with a already damage glacis

[Mike_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Avtomat

What needs to happen is the T34's frontal hull armor needs to be a little weaker or/and the Pz4's KWK40 needs a boost in penetration power.
Also tank rounds need to cause more damage inside tanks after penetrations.

These tanks at ranges like this easily destroyed eachoter.

2 days ago I played on Arad2 with a panzer IV and my KD was usually 6-1.

So it mostly comes down to the TC's skill, and I guess the noobies that came from the summer sale are all flooding into Panzer seats to play with the marvels of the german engineering and thats why Panzer teams sometimes get whacked by experienced T34s. But even like this, the germans still mostly win both Gumrak and Arad2.

Yeah...... <sigh> I just started tanking last week... The PZ4 needs to be restored to its former self and the T34 left as is... that'll make for some superb tank battles.

[r5cya]

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad

I just started tanking last week.

NOOB! i thought you looked like you needed more practice.
do you ever get out of that tank?

[PhoenixDragon]

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad

The PZ4 is WEAK!! Ever since the GOTY patch...

Didn't you use to say that the tanks were well-balanced before that patch?

[Mike_Nomad]

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

Didn't you use to say that the tanks were well-balanced before that patch?

Nope...... Say hi to Mek for me.

Back on topic; The PZ4 should be restored to its former self and the T34 left upgraded. That'll make for some great tank battles.

[Choice]

I would like to see the angling of armor bring back the ricochet off the tank shot from time to time...

[r5cya]

Originally Posted by Choice

I would like to see the angling of armor bring back the ricochet off the tank shot from time to time...

oh yeah! that was a riot! ever run under one in ost and get killed? good times!

[PhoenixDragon]

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad

Nope......

Funny. You do know these forums have a search feature, right?

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad

• Areas of vulnerability of both the T34 and PZ4 are close to reality.
• The PZ4 and T34 are a good match up.

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad

Then why do experienced tankers find that the T34 can require up to 7-9 shots?? Those tankers get killled in a PZ4 just as often as they kill T34's.

Sure t34's have "sweet spots" but then, so do the PZ4's.

...a good match up, hmm?

[Cwivey]

Originally Posted by Choice

I would like to see the angling of armor bring back the ricochet off the tank shot from time to time...

Just shoot at the T-34 and I'm sure you'll see the rounds richochet off. (Tee Hee)


Angling also works, it's just that you need to be at distance for it to do anything. At short range (200m or less), the rounds should punch into the armour fairly reliably, apart from the most glancing shots. <-- Well at least that's how it was intended to be, things are a little of kilter at the moment.

[Clowndoe]

Originally Posted by Nezzer

Just a single shot either on the spot under the driver window or slightly under the cross in the side and boom.

That's exactly how it was before the T-34 got fixed. From what I can tell you just found out where to shoot the Pz. IV, and that's a good thing.

[Nezzer]

Originally Posted by Clowndoe

That's exactly how it was before the T-34 got fixed. From what I can tell you just found out where to shoot the Pz. IV, and that's a good thing.

No, it wasn't this easy to hit that weak spot. Now it's even possible to one-hit kill with an AT rifle on that spot.

[Mekhazzio]

No, it was that easy. The starboard ammo storage was always the most vulnerable area of the Pz4. One-shot ATR kills were not only possible, they were easy, if you could get a good angle on that storage from close enough range. I did a very large number of them while debugging ATRs for Antilag, because I used Commissar's House for testing and the infantry spawns always land you on that side of the tank spawn. I was actually getting annoyed by it, since it meant I had to wait on the tank to respawn

What changed between then and now is that other parts of the tank can take damage too. An awful lot of areas and angles on the Pz4 were literally invulnerable, due to issues in the armor zone layout. You could bang away at almost any part of the turret, and even most angles on the rear of the tank, all day long, even with another Pz4 (aka: the strongest AT weapon in the game) and never deal any damage whatsoever.

[Mike_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Mekhazzio

No, it was that easy. The starboard ammo storage was always the most vulnerable area of the Pz4. One-shot ATR kills were not only possible, they were easy, if you could get a good angle on that storage from close enough range. I did a very large number of them while debugging ATRs for Antilag, because I used Commissar's House for testing and the infantry spawns always land you on that side of the tank spawn. I was actually getting annoyed by it, since it meant I had to wait on the tank to respawn

What changed between then and now is that other parts of the tank can take damage too. An awful lot of areas and angles on the Pz4 were literally invulnerable, due to issues in the armor zone layout. You could bang away at almost any part of the turret, and even most angles on the rear of the tank, all day long, even with another Pz4 (aka: the strongest AT weapon in the game) and never deal any damage whatsoever.

Good!! Then lets drop tanking altogether!! The PZ4 is now RAVAGED by the T34. How stupid of me..... no wonder Germany was beaten by the Russians.

Let's ensure that the Germans get beaten in every tank map.

NOT!!!

History is cool but it does not make for an entertaining repeat playable game.

Restore the PZ4 to its former self and leave the T34 as is - that'll make for some good tank battles in this GAME.

Hey Mek, give my regards to Phoenix.....

[PhoenixDragon]

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad

Good!! Then lets drop tanking altogether!! The PZ4 is now RAVAGED by the T34. How stupid of me..... no wonder Germany was beaten by the Russians.

Let's ensure that the Germans get beaten in every tank map.

If the Germans are getting "ravaged" in every tank map, they're doing something horribly wrong. Yes, you can die now. That doesn't mean your tank was nerfed into the ground, it means the other tank can compete. Sorry, no more free rides.

Comparing the two in-game certainly doesn't make it look the way you're saying. Doing a few runs of shooting-gallery-style Gumrak with bots shows the two very close in durability, with the Pz4 still having the edge. This isn't just an opinion formed by a few shots in MP, where you have to contend with the variabilities of skill in the other players, but easily a hundred-plus shots from each tank from all angles.

If you want even more solid results, the Gumrak test you ignored way back is still valid. Load up a Gumrak server with bots, set them loose, and see how the kill ratio ends up. It's pretty much the perfect test, as it eliminates variables such as player skill, while also reflecting how much of the tank is an vulnerable area (And therefor, the difficulty of hitting said area).

Hey Mek, give my regards to Phoenix.....

If you really wanted to give your regards to me, you could simply reply to my posts, instead of... Well, I assume that's supposed to be some sort of "clever" snark, but I don't think it works the way you intend. Incidentally, if a joke fails, retelling it won't make it better.

[Six_Ten]

Interesting debate.

You guys will be able to test some of these theories and work out group tactics this afternoon and weekend. At the moment I'm doing the final test and cooking then publishing Kursk_B1 -- 5km x 5km tank map.

We will see what happens with opposing tank squads with real room to maneuver.

[Sarkis.]

Hey Phoenix, I think that both tanks are well balanced in game, A bot gumrak veteran myself. But I still think that even in terms of gameplay, the Panzer IV should have some superiority at least. That's my opinion.

Another opinion I have is that the game should go beyond balance, like it does with most of the firearms in game, and deliver imbalance. Meaning that the real fight between Panzer IVG and T34/76 would really be balanced in favor of the Panzer, or who shoots first. That is what I think people want to see in game. Since well, it's Red Orchestra and that has been the theme of the game, portraying real life imbalances of the stuff featured as well. And delivering balance in some other areas to counter that.

[Mike_Nomad]

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

------- snip ------
If you really wanted to give your regards to me, you could simply reply to my posts, instead of... Well, I assume that's supposed to be some sort of "clever" snark, but I don't think it works the way you intend. Incidentally, if a joke fails, retelling it won't make it better.

Really? It got a rise outta you! hahahhah

[Veltro87]

Originally Posted by ross

Does anyone know if the T-34's periscope actually had the same reticle as the gunsight? I can't quite believe that to be the case... certainly some kind of rangefinding scale, but the exact same thing, ballistics info and all?

No, it doesn't
it's kinda hard to tell wich reticle should be used because i don't know if the in game t 34 uses the PT-4-7 or the PTK-5 periscope

any way just for your additinal info you can have alook here

http://pedg.yuku.com/topic/1766/T-34-Optics
and
http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/t34b.html

[PhoenixDragon]

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

Hey Phoenix, I think that both tanks are well balanced in game, A bot gumrak veteran myself. But I still think that even in terms of gameplay, the Panzer IV should have some superiority at least. That's my opinion.

Not really. The T-34 has better armor all around, while the Pz4 has a better gun. The two roughly cancel each other out. The real advantage the Pz4 had was the fact that the gunner and TC were two different people, rather than sharing the role as in the T-34, but that doesn't have any effect in the game, currently, when you've got just the one player running the tank.

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad

Really? It got a rise outta you! hahahhah

Well it's good to know you're not only being useless to the discussion, you're also trolling. I guess if you can't be correct, you can still be insulting.