Millionth try to suggest a "balanced" minigun-like thing

[Atm1297]

HoE TIER MINIGUN
If you want to have a viable minigun, it has to have a niche to fill. It needs to fill one role. I can see those roles being Trashmob clearing. Since pyro, support and commando can already do that, the minigun needs a way to fit onto a commando or a support specialist. (Perks will effect this weapon differently for both classes. Supports will gain VERY MINOR penetration based on level. Commandos will gain either more ammo, or slightly more damage.)

Firstly, realism will need to be thrown to the wayside. This could be a Horzine prototype weapon. Weighing in at 9 blocks or so. It could be a light hi cap weapon chambered in .32. It could be fed from a magazine. the way to have it still be useful in HoE...

1) Made purely for killing mobs. No natural penetration, and a very minor headshot multiplier with low base damage. This should feel like a faster shooting bullpup with more ammunition. (People do still use the Bullpup in HoE for mobs last time I checked.)
2) Extremely high RoF. (Mac 10 tier)
3) Requires a minor spin-up.
4) Magazine size 50-150.
5) Damage should be like the bullpup.
6) Not particularly accurate, similar to the bullpup. (imagine the accuracy closer up being like the bullpup at range.)
7) Holds a total of 100 or 300 bullets based on mag amount.

I know I love the bullpup, it is amazing for run and gun mob killing if everything goes to s---, and good to have when at close range for killing those small things when the Scar and the FN feel like a waste. I would like to see a minigun-like thing that is basically a pricier upgrade to the bullpup.

[thresher3253]

Originally Posted by Atm1297

I know I love the bullpup, it is amazing for run and gun mob killing if everything goes to s---, and good to have when at close range for killing those small things when the Scar and the FN feel like a waste. I would like to see a minigun-like thing that is basically a pricier upgrade to the bullpup.

That's why semiauto mode exists...

[C_Gibby]

He'd have to move at "walk" speed whilst moving with it (similar to the Bren idea I suggested) and the bullets must spread quite a bit so they are no good for trying to be used to kill scrakes and fleshpounds at a distance, but great for close range trashkilling.

It would have to have something put in place to keep it being a solution to end the game (at least for trash). I think that its bullets will be weak and it can rape trash, but have a weakness against gorefasts.

It should have a -very- high weight, so that the user can only carry 9mm + machete/pipe.

[CandleJack]

The XM214 Microgun.

Chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO. Probably a more balanced option than a Minigun.

[Left 4 Dinner]

why miniguns? Just stick with automatic rifles. They do nearly the smae thing as miniguns, but with much more accuracy and less bullet wasting.

[poosh]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

why miniguns? Just stick with automatic rifles. They do nearly the smae thing as miniguns, but with much more accuracy and less bullet wasting.

Miniguns looks cooler

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by poosh

Miniguns looks cooler

Meh. I wont deny that miniguns do look nice

[Trotskygrad]

Originally Posted by C_Gibby

He'd have to move at "walk" speed whilst moving with it (similar to the Bren idea I suggested) and the bullets must spread quite a bit so they are no good for trying to be used to kill scrakes and fleshpounds at a distance, but great for close range trashkilling.

It would have to have something put in place to keep it being a solution to end the game (at least for trash). I think that its bullets will be weak and it can rape trash, but have a weakness against gorefasts.

It should have a -very- high weight, so that the user can only carry 9mm + machete/pipe.

hmm that's an interesting idea, a 13 weight law-style weapon for every perk

Currently it's

Demo: LAW
Sharpy: M99

This would add a

Commando: Micro/minigun

what else is possible?

Firebug: propane tank launcher
Support: belt-fed .410 shotgun (think weak and spammy)
Zerker: no idea
Medic: no idea

[Leon_Glock]

Zerker: Lawnmower

Has anyone seen Braindaed?

[Azukki]

A minigun is particular model, chambered in .308/7.62x51, which would be too ridiculously heavy and powerful for inclusion in KF as a player-held weapon. Even the 5.56 microgun that candlejack suggested may be "too much."
You should be calling your idea a gatling gun, it's a more encompassing term, which would describe your idea of a horzine gun in a weak caliber.
If you really want the proper rate of fire of a gatling gun, feasibility for non-support player characters carrying it even with all their inventory, and you want some semblance of balance, chambering it in the lowly .22lr, like the Halo Mfg. GAU 22 E/S shown below, may be a good option. Firing that at the properly fast rate of fire that the gatling gun design is for, 6000rpm or so, you'd get something with a DPS only somewhat higher than that of the FAL, so there'd be some hope for balancing it out.

It'd need a motor, ammo belt box, and some furniture added for it to work like we want, but that's the core gun, with a P90 below for scale. Overall you'd wind up with something with similar size to a gas chainsaw, and a bit heavier. Since the chainsaw in KF weighs 9 blocks, that's fairly suitable for any weight you'd want this to have.
Also, the third person animations could be modified chainsaw animations, easing development.
A 550 round box of .22lr is just a tad heftier than a 25 round box of 12 gauge buckshot, so that means you could have a lot of ammo. Base values of 250rd capacity and 1250rd ammo reserve sounds about right.
A laser sight to counter the lack of irons of could be good.



But really, I think an LMG of intermediate rifle caliber with the power to decap trash with individual shots would be more suitable for commando than a gatling gun. As far as stats go for that idea, compared to an M4, I think double the capacity, double the ammo reserve, triple the price, half the recoil, double the weight, and double the reload time could be suitable. Although I suppose having both an LMG and a gatling like I described could work, they'd be plenty differentiated, for distinct alternative options.

[ro_sauce]

well, there is the patriarch gun mut.

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by Trotskygrad

hmm that's an interesting idea, a 13 weight law-style weapon for every perk

Currently it's

Demo: LAW
Sharpy: M99

This would add a

Commando: Micro/minigun

what else is possible?

Firebug: propane tank launcher
Support: belt-fed .410 shotgun (think weak and spammy)
Zerker: no idea
Medic: no idea

The medic could have a huge hypodermic needle. It has powerful stuff to heal people and can stab stab stab the patty


As for Zerk, I always considered the chainsaw his 'top of line" weapon. Maybe duel chainsaws?

As for the support guy, I always though that the AA 12 was his top gun, so maybe duel AA 12's? Each one has smaller clips, but the same mags

[Trotskygrad]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

The medic could have a huge hypodermic needle. It has powerful stuff to heal people and can stab stab stab the patty


As for Zerk, I always considered the chainsaw his 'top of line" weapon. Maybe duel chainsaws?

As for the support guy, I always though that the AA 12 was his top gun, so maybe duel AA 12's? Each one has smaller clips, but the same mags

I would prefer:

MY BELTFED 12 GAUGE UPPER RECEIVER - YouTube

zerker?

water jet cutter perhaps

[Atm1297]

Originally Posted by thresher3253

That's why semiauto mode exists...

I am a huge fan of semi auto mode, but sometimes when s--- really hits the fan and clots and crawlers are everywhere (implying you were in a bad spot/room/whatever, I know.) the 25 kills isn't quite enough with that reload time. The bullpup with it's base 40+ shots can still keep more things (especially magnetic grab clots) off of you.

A fun thing that will likely never be balanced or show up would be a buster sword, or a sword made from welded scrap metal so that you have this huge thing that swings very slowly, but can kill a mob in one swipe.

[Atm1297]

Originally Posted by Azukki

A minigun is particular model, chambered in .308/7.62x51, which would be too ridiculously heavy and powerful for inclusion in KF as a player-held weapon. Even the 5.56 microgun that candlejack suggested may be "too much."
You should be calling your idea a gatling gun, it's a more encompassing term, which would describe your idea of a horzine gun in a weak caliber.
If you really want the proper rate of fire of a gatling gun, feasibility for non-support player characters carrying it even with all their inventory, and you want some semblance of balance, chambering it in the lowly .22lr, like the Halo Mfg. GAU 22 E/S shown below, may be a good option. Firing that at the properly fast rate of fire that the gatling gun design is for, 6000rpm or so, you'd get something with a DPS only somewhat higher than that of the FAL, so there'd be some hope for balancing it out.

It'd need a motor, ammo belt box, and some furniture added for it to work like we want, but that's the core gun, with a P90 below for scale. Overall you'd wind up with something with similar size to a gas chainsaw, and a bit heavier. Since the chainsaw in KF weighs 9 blocks, that's fairly suitable for any weight you'd want this to have.
Also, the third person animations could be modified chainsaw animations, easing development.
A 550 round box of .22lr is just a tad heftier than a 25 round box of 12 gauge buckshot, so that means you could have a lot of ammo. Base values of 250rd capacity and 1250rd ammo reserve sounds about right.
A laser sight to counter the lack of irons of could be good.



But really, I think an LMG of intermediate rifle caliber with the power to decap trash with individual shots would be more suitable for commando than a gatling gun. As far as stats go for that idea, compared to an M4, I think double the capacity, double the ammo reserve, triple the price, half the recoil, double the weight, and double the reload time could be suitable. Although I suppose having both an LMG and a gatling like I described could work, they'd be plenty differentiated, for distinct alternative options.

I do really like that idea to have an LMG like the Bren idea, but I can't help but feel that once you start getting into the territory of individual shot decaps with a high cap mag, even with an LMG and what should be "low accuracy from the hip" there might be some issues.

I do sincerely hope we someday GET a Bren, but at the same time, it still sounds like it will be way too strong and I am curious to see what Tripwire does if it does come to exist. (M99 and Xbow could probably use a nerf btw.)

I admit that balance to a full on gatling gun would be hard considering:

1. -Only the support specialist could even hope to carry a lightweight version as his only gun.
2. -Shots will penetrate (rapid fire M99 anyone?)
3. -Headshots will likely be kills
4. -OP RoF
5. -OP DPS
6. -Would likely still be able to destroy FPs and Scrakes
7. -Would break the game

Also, the whole idea of a Gatling gun (Thanks all for that correction) would just be interesting because all of the commando weapons feel the same at the moment. If you take a higher bullet cap and less accuracy with weaker shots, you can afford to have something there to destroy things like clots and crawlers, which seem to go unnoticed sometimes. (namely crawlers when no one feels like killing them.) I WAS actually considering posting to chamber it in a .22 cal, but wasn't sure if that sounded too weak.

An interesting aspect that gives to it though would be that Tripwire could likely make it so that this gun would:

1) Do 80% less damage to the body excluding crawlers.
2) Do normal damage with a headshot
3) Naturally does 50% less headshot damage to scrakes and FPs
4) Does almost no bodyshot damage to scrakes and FPs
5) Does full bodyshot and headshot damage if enemies are crisped/on fire?

Thus making it strictly for weak crowd control, and possibly a good weapon to accompany a pyro, though pyros are amazing at crowd control already, and they can kill scrakes and FPs to boot, but since they do DoT, it would be good to see a class weapon that specifically accompanies them. Most of the commando weapons do this fairly well, but not as well as they could most being hindered by mag size.

And actually, you really made me want Tripwire to make a Medic P90.

[Trotskygrad]

Originally Posted by Atm1297

I do really like that idea to have an LMG like the Bren idea, but I can't help but feel that once you start getting into the territory of individual shot decaps with a high cap mag, even with an LMG and what should be "low accuracy from the hip" there might be some issues.

I do sincerely hope we someday GET a Bren, but at the same time, it still sounds like it will be way too strong and I am curious to see what Tripwire does if it does come to exist. (M99 and Xbow could probably use a nerf btw.)

I admit that balance to a full on gatling gun would be hard considering:

1. -Only the support specialist could even hope to carry a lightweight version as his only gun.
2. -Shots will penetrate (rapid fire M99 anyone?)
3. -Headshots will likely be kills
4. -OP RoF
5. -OP DPS
6. -Would likely still be able to destroy FPs and Scrakes
7. -Would break the game

Also, the whole idea of a Gatling gun (Thanks all for that correction) would just be interesting because all of the commando weapons feel the same at the moment. If you take a higher bullet cap and less accuracy with weaker shots, you can afford to have something there to destroy things like clots and crawlers, which seem to go unnoticed sometimes. (namely crawlers when no one feels like killing them.) I WAS actually considering posting to chamber it in a .22 cal, but wasn't sure if that sounded too weak.

An interesting aspect that gives to it though would be that Tripwire could likely make it so that this gun would:

1) Do 80% less damage to the body excluding crawlers.
2) Do normal damage with a headshot
3) Naturally does 50% less headshot damage to scrakes and FPs
4) Does almost no bodyshot damage to scrakes and FPs
5) Does full bodyshot and headshot damage if enemies are crisped/on fire?

Thus making it strictly for weak crowd control, and possibly a good weapon to accompany a pyro, though pyros are amazing at crowd control already, and they can kill scrakes and FPs to boot, but since they do DoT, it would be good to see a class weapon that specifically accompanies them. Most of the commando weapons do this fairly well, but not as well as they could most being hindered by mag size.

And actually, you really made me want Tripwire to make a Medic P90.

I'd be all for a .22 gatling gun (horzine sentry gun ripped off the wall perhaps, would make a good backstory).

[Aze]

A gatling gun with a weak caliber could be really neat indeed! That's probably the best way to balance it.

There used to be a video of a gatling gun mod for KF (but it's private now ), a mod that was never released. Made by someone called "crono M&C" i think.

Anywho, it looks like a lot of fun, and there are certainly ways to make it balanced. Let me just suggest some numbers:

* Perk: Support or Commando (with the numbers etc im gonna suggest, it would probably fit a bit better as a Support weapon, cuz it's gonna feel "Support"-ish, almost like a full-auto-shotgun of sorts)

* Weight: 14. With that weight, a level 6 Support could max carry one of the lighter shotgun's with it, not one of the heavier ones (Not AA12 or HuSg)

* Damage: 15 to 20 or so (with a weak caliber, that would work for sure)
* Headshotmultiplier: Normal i guess? Like, 1.1x?
* Penetration: 1 or 2

* Ammo: Around 1000 bullets or so (maybe 1500?), but let all of this be in ONE big magazine, no reload required. That means it requires a backpack for the ammo, which further explains the heavy weight. Sound overpowered? Well, there is further balancing to be considered...

* Overheating: When you shoot continously, the barrel overheats. This could serve as the "pseudoreload". So instead of reloading you would have to wait periodically wait for it to cool down. If you reach 100% overheating, you would have to wait for the overheating to go down to, say, 50%, before you can start shooting again.

* Ammo consumption: Each click of the fire-button should shoot several bullets, like, 10-ish bullets. That way, you always need to be a little gentle with the ammo and preferably shoot into bigger crowds, rather than just shooting at every single specimen you see. (One of the main reason it would fit more for Support, as that is the general Support playstyle in regards to ammo control)

* I would have ironsighting/secondary fire also toggle between 2 modes:
Spinning barrels mode on / off
1) When they are constantly spinning (mode on), you only need to click on M1 and the bullets fire right away (instant firing response). The bad part? Well, the overheating would never go below a certain % (like always at a minimum of 25% or so) and it would cool off slower as well.
2) When they are NOT constantly spinning (mode off), you need to hold down M1 a little, to let the barrels spin up in speed, and after the spin-up is at its max speed and ready, it starts firing. So you have more difficulty to handle a sort of delay between your firings, and thus also more difficulty with ammo consumption. The good part? Well, it cools down faster, and can also go all the way down to 0% overheating.

That would add some thinking for the gun too and make it less "mindless buttonspamming". It further also makes it more of a Support weapon too.


Other short opinion of the weapons discussed here:
Minigun-style weapon - For Support (due to above suggestions/balancing)
LMG-style weapon - Only a Bren Gun or similarly lowcap magazine LMGs would be balanceable for this game. And imo, the weapon should be for Commando.

[Azukki]

Bah. Half the point of the gatling gun design is that it doesn't overheat easily, because the heat from firing so many rounds is distributed among several barrels, and those barrels are whirling around and stirring up the air for extra cooling.
I know KF isn't supposed to be super realistic, but it's always bothered me how the minigun in L4D2 would practically catch on fire from 3 seconds of shooting.

Originally Posted by Atm1297

And actually, you really made me want Tripwire to make a Medic P90.

Consider the stats of the Bullpup; as far as function goes, we almost already have a P90, it's just a little heavy and slow-cycling.

[poosh]

I copy-pasted my suggestion from another thread about minigun:

• FP - 90% resistance
• Scrake, Husks and Bloats: 50% resistance
• Unable to make headshots: even if Minigun's bullet hits the head, it should count as bodyshot.
• Weight: 12-13 blocks
• Long reload after each 500 bullets (+reload and clip bonuses for Commando)
• RoF: 1500 RMP (25 bullets per second)
• Max ammo: 4 clips.
• Damage: 20 points unperked
• No penetration

Kill stats for the specs above (All calculations based on 6-player HoE game):
Level 6 Commando would have 625 bullets in clip (+25% bonus), dealing 30 damage points per bullet.
Crawler. Single kill: 5 bullets, Killing spree: 5 Crawlers per second, 125 Crawlers per clip.
Stalker. Single kill: 6 bullets, Killing spree: 4 Stalkers per second, 104 Stalkers per clip.
Clot. Single kill: 8 bullets, Killing spree: 3 Clots per second, 78 Clots per clip.
Gorefast. Single kill: 26 bullets, require to constantly shoot ~1s to kill it, 24 Gorefasts per clip (same as SCAR, but SCAR reloads faster and have more magazines).
Siren: ~ the same as Gorefast.
Bloat: 138 bullets (50% resistance), 5.5s to kill = waste of ammo
Husk: 105 bullets (50% resistance), 4s to kill
Scrake: 408 bullets (50% resistance), 16s - he will rage and kill you faster
FP: 1968 bullets (90% resistance), >1m of constant shooting by 3 Commandos - almost impossible.
Results: Minigun could be an ultimate small zed killer (Crawler, Stalker, Clots), good against Gorefasts and Sirens, but horrible against bigger zeds.

About the overheating:
With 1500RPM fire rate each barrel shoots only ~4 bullets per second. Add here extra coolant from spinning.

[Undedd Jester]

Doesn't seem a tad silly to give a minigun lower damage per bullet than the 9mm?

Thats the biggest problem with a gattling gun, and LMG's in general. They are fantastic crowd clearing/area denying weapons. In a game like this, you either make it stupid OP to reflect how effective they would be in real life, or you make them suck arse through a straw to stop the game being too easy.

If there is a middle line somewhere, hitting it would be like trying to find a single grain of sand in a wheatfield.