Tuning class and weapon stats for Realism

[PeteAtomic]

If the RO franchise continues with its current model, and RO 3 comes out in 5 years, then a huge number of people will be 'heroes' in many classes by that point-- which makes being a 'hero' moot.
So, maybe, either scale down the abilities as a player progresses, make it more difficult to rise at higher levels, or both.

[Gaizokubanou]

I voted for everything except for ammo distribution (simply because it has little to no affect on direct combat). I don't see the theme of hero grind fitting well with tactical shooter at all.

Not to mention current progression scheme of RO2 is terrible for new players who are at a great disadvantage compared to the veteran players from not knowing the maps and having worse gun control/movement speed. First is unavoidable nor is it bad as experience and knowledge of the game should be advantageous but... the latter is just terrible for an action oriented games like FPS.

Nothing ensures that game goes into perpetual decline more than a system that puts veterans on pedestal and discourages new comers by gimping them.

If people want hero theme to stick around (still think it's an oxymoron for tactical milsim to focus on having "heroes"), or just want progression/unlocks in general (which if done well, would be excellent), it should focus more on cosmetics and sidegrades.

Like killcount marks on butt of your rifle via achievement (like getting 5 kills in a row unlocks 5 marks, etc.), commendations like the iron cross for the Axis, worn out uniforms, etc. Not sure how gun unlocks could be done well without completely butchering historical accuracy when the game focuses on standard infantry combat. This isn't some modern day special forces who have access to hundreds of guns and accessories available to them... these are grunts who used generic weapons handed out to them during the era when there weren't all these 'cool' accessories for the guns.

[ross]

I can't see kill tallies on guns being a thing, not even for snipers (who were the only soldiers who would record kill counts) - usually a book was used, if they bothered to keep count at all.

[El Conejo Peligroso]

Okay, so I voted: Sway (that is numero uno), Sight picture, and reload time in that order.

[Mekhazzio]

Originally Posted by Zetsumei

The difference in reaction time between people is rarely more than 50ms. This means if one persons weapon goes more than 50ms faster to ironsights than another persons weapon then at times of equal spotting moment, no matter how fast the reflexes are of one person.

The guy with the better stats will get the first shot off. In the world of fps gaming where generally a net delay of 100ms is already extremely frowned upon. Obtaining a speed bonus of around that amount will affect gameplay.

The line between a good or bad player in a game where a single shot kills is very thin. The primary skill there is the reaction time and muscle memory. In games with more damage you need to keep your sights on the target but here one hit is good enough. And then advantages of 100ms in various things will start to matter.

So, you agree with me then. Your scenario is positing that:
if there's a just-bought-the-game brand new player is going up against someone maxed out
...and if they get into a quick-draw situation where both spot each other at the same time
...and if they're both caught by total surprise / not planning ahead (not sighting before contact? Poor play)
...and if they both have similar reaction times
...and if they both have exceptionally low latency
...and if they both decline to hipfire
then one of the stat bonuses might start to make a difference. And I agree, it could influence things in this scenario, but this scenario is an inconsequentially small part of RO2 gameplay. Heck, just filtering to events where both people spot each other at the same time excludes probably more than half of all kills.

[Gaizokubanou]

Originally Posted by Mekhazzio

I think the reload speeds are too high across the board, but that's got nothing to do with the leveling boosts. Let's be honest here, it's exceedingly rare for the small variations in these largely-negligible stats to make any difference whatsoever in actual gameplay. It's a placebo effect that people give far more weight than it deserves.

That example you gave where two people doing a quasi quick draw isn't the only situation where improved abilities come to play...

Pretty much all of the stat improvements come into play throughout normal play. Reduced sway/recoil control/suppression resistance/sight speed gives edge to the veteran avatar's shooting all the time.

Movement speed and stamina improvements let veteran characters cover more ground faster, which is also a definitive edge throughout the game since mobility is a big deal.

In a way you are right that none of the improvements will give a "free" kill to veteran avatar, but they will make every little aspect of the game's challenge easier to deal with, which adds up to a substantial advantage.

Originally Posted by ross

I can't see kill tallies on guns being a thing, not even for snipers (who were the only soldiers who would record kill counts) - usually a book was used, if they bothered to keep count at all.

I have no problem with scrapping that idea then.

[eM*]

Originally Posted by Sensemann

I felt so cheap when on Barracks, missed my last bullet on a guy 10 meters away when he did the same. We both started reloading and just because I was faster, it was me finishing him off. (and yes, I know I should've gone melee).

People want realism, but they forget about realism at the same time. Its obvious that experienced soldier is better, than some new recruit. Thats what we have in the game. Dont complain on reload time, its actually part of the training in the army to effectively reload your gun, just like a lot more things. We have them in game now, with this system.

Playing, killing, going through things, experiencing them, seeing, doing.. you cant say that after reloading hundreds of times you wont do it better, faster.. is applies to the rest as well.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by eM*

People want realism, but they forget about realism at the same time. Its obvious that experienced soldier is better, than some new recruit. Thats what we have in the game. Dont complain on reload time, its actually part of the training in the army to effectively reload your gun, just like a lot more things. We have them in game now, with this system.

Playing, killing, going through things, experiencing them, seeing, doing.. you cant say that after reloading hundreds of times you wont do it better, faster.. is applies to the rest as well.

And how about dying, how would that work for your experience?

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by eM*

People want realism, but they forget about realism at the same time. Its obvious that experienced soldier is better, than some new recruit. Thats what we have in the game. Don't complain on reload time, its actually part of the training in the army to effectively reload your gun, just like a lot more things. We have them in game now, with this system

The increase in reload times makes it too fast for many weapons, and introduces anomalies and bugs. There is no training that can make you shoot a bolt action without working the bolt once all five bullets are pushed down the stripper clip.
Training will make you go faster and better, the current problem is that it goes too fast. And it is undesirable, we are not really wanting to take into account who is a more trained soldier and who isn't based on playtime. All the times you spawn, you are always the same guys with the same training. Even if people want the feature, which is ok, at least they should make lvl 0 20% slower so that heroes are equal to current lvl 0. Even ammo distribution bonuses introduce miscalculations and bugs in our initial ammo. The whole system is BAD.

[>< f4ct0r...13]

Any type of computer aid is absurd. Didn't vote.

[Cyper]

Originally Posted by eM*

People want realism, but they forget about realism at the same time. Its obvious that experienced soldier is better, than some new recruit. Thats what we have in the game. Dont complain on reload time, its actually part of the training in the army to effectively reload your gun, just like a lot more things. We have them in game now, with this system.

Playing, killing, going through things, experiencing them, seeing, doing.. you cant say that after reloading hundreds of times you wont do it better, faster.. is applies to the rest as well.

How could BIS forget to implement this after creating military simulators for over a decade?

No, its not realistic and it was never added for the sake of realism. This is exactly what most people expect out from a FPS these days hence why it was added. Its just artificial skills. Its not your skills, or someone's else, the game simply awards you and makes you better than other players for simply playing it. If you want to become better play the game. If you don't get better, too bad. That's what makes generic FPS different from tactical shooters and simulators: they don't give players aids or hold them in the hand. If you want to go this far in terms of ''realism'', then its absolutely recessionary to make it possible to lose all these skills. So that if you die its all gone.

[Gaizokubanou]

Originally Posted by Cyper

This is exactly what most people expect out from a FPS these days hence why it was added.

Actually most mainstream FPS games don't do what RO2 does.

For example, let's take BF3 and MW3, two of the biggest FPS franchises on the market. They both give you unlocks based on fancy ranks that you can progress, but none of them are meant to be a straight up performance boost over lower ranking players.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by Gaizokubanou

Actually most mainstream FPS games don't do what RO2 does.

For example, let's take BF3 and MW3, two of the biggest FPS franchises on the market. They both give you unlocks based on fancy ranks that you can progress, but none of them are meant to be a straight up performance boost over lower ranking players.

Untrue

[Gaizokubanou]

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

Untrue

How so?

[eM*]

All these unlock on both BF and COD give performance boost. BF has stronger weapons* + attachements. COD has stronger weapons* + attachements + perks + kill streak rewards (CODBO has also classes with upgrades).

* Stronger, but "balanced". Not like owning everything. Example: very fast shooting gun has very low damage, very high damage gun is very slow shooting, thats how it works.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by Gaizokubanou

How so?

Ninja Pro rings any bells?

[Gaizokubanou]

Originally Posted by eM*

All these unlock on both BF and COD give performance boost. BF has stronger weapons* + attachements. COD has stronger weapons* + attachements + perks + kill streak rewards (CODBO has also classes with upgrades).

* Stronger, but "balanced". Not like owning everything. Example: very fast shooting gun has very low damage, very high damage gun is very slow shooting, thats how it works.

What is this "stronger" yet "balanced" talk? It's either stronger or balanced, not both. For BF3 it's definitely more "balanced".

Best gun (as in most widely used for competition purpose) is the starter gun for medic class in BF3 the M16A3. Then you get lot of side-grades that outperform the M16A3 in certain situations but underperform in others (hence M16 being most popular because of its versatility).

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

Ninja Pro rings any bells?

Doesn't even exist in MW3 and the replacement for it is nowhere near as useful in MW3 cause the game is overall much louder to bother with footsteps.

And it's still nothing like 20% -/+ lower recoil/suppression/sway/fasterreload/ADSspeed of RO2's level 50 gun because RO2 one comes with zero trade off.

[PhoenixDragon]

Originally Posted by Gaizokubanou

Doesn't even exist in MW3 and the replacement for it is nowhere near as useful in MW3 cause the game is overall much louder to bother with footsteps.

And it's still nothing like 20% -/+ lower recoil/suppression/sway/fasterreload/ADSspeed of RO2's level 50 gun because RO2 one comes with zero trade off.

So I looked over the wiki for MW3 perks and BF3 specializations, and I'm not finding any of them that come with downsides, unless you mean being unable to equip a different perk in its place. Many aren't available to a new player. In MW3, not only are the better perks only available to more experienced players, they can also get better versions of them as well.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by Gaizokubanou

Doesn't even exist in MW3.

It existed in MW2 and Call of Duty 4. And it made you a ghost. So my point is valid. Ever tried playing without Stopping Power ? It was not pleasant