Slow down reloading for shotguns

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Just as the topic says. I think the speed of reloading is way too fast for shotguns. People keep complaining about support being overpowered due to the constant and deadly shotgun fire. Deadly peak damage is the special attribute of shotguns, but constant? No.

Suggestion #1: I think that reloading of pump shotgun should be slower, to the same speed of the M1014. (M1014 reloads 1 shell per second, is that right?)

Suggestion #2: I think that the reloading of HSG needs to be realistic. Nowadays people can draw their HSG, double blast and put it away, and when drawing HSG again they can blast again without the reloading animation! Fix it so that if the HSG is drew after fired and put-away, must reload before firing again.
Also, reload the HSG when 1 of the 2 shells in chamber is fired? Old function that is suggested 2 years ago, but never adopted.

For AA12. I have no clear-cut suggestion for this one. Probably slow the reload too.
(For support: You can pour them deadly firepower, but your reloading is fatal.)

[Althamus]

Interesting. The support's two main weaknesses are the slow reloads and the lack of ammo, but I never really felt that either was a problem (you have 5 spare weight, enough for another gun, and apart from the CSG, none of the shotguns feels too slow to reload for me).

I don't think it would be too brutalising if the SG were slowed to the same reload as CSG, or the HSG was fixed (although I would mourn the HSG T_T). The AA however already takes, what, 4 seconds to reload? If you accidently reload that with a mouseclick at the wrong time (for the LONGEST time, I would hold M1 in a FP's face to empty it, then subconsciously realise it wasn't firing and automatically click M1 to fire again... then swear a lot). Well, increasing it to 5-6 seconds or something means that a reload at the wrong time would be painful.

Also, at the moment a support can solo if he's clever, conserves his shots, and hammers R whenever he's not firing. I don't really want to take that away from him by making his trashkiller TOO slow to reload.

[poosh]

I agree that Support are slightly overpowered, but please don't try to ruin this perk.

#1 Totally NOPE. Slow reload of CSg is the main reason I don't use it... ever. Slowing down Pump's reload will make it **** too.

#2 I agree that switching to another weapon while reloading HSg is wrong. But disabling reload interruption could be painful. As compromise I'd suggest to allow reload interruption, but weapon should remain empty (you need to complete reload next time you switch it).

[Amber Glass]

this dude only plays commando and thinks every other perk should be nerfed. agreed on supports slight OPness though, but all they need to do is fix the glitch where shotgun pellets register more than once, and perhaps lessen the grenade damage buff a bit and support would be fine.

[Trotskygrad]

yeah don't take this utopia phoenix guy seriously... "communism makes players more willing to share dosh huehuehue"

but yeah, fix that bug and support will be brought into line.

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by poosh

#1 Totally NOPE. Slow reload of CSh is the main reason I don't use it... ever. Slowing down Pump's reload will make it **** too.

I also don't use the CSG because of the slow reload time, BUT for me, a big part of the problem is that because the gun can fire faster, I don't place my shots so carefully, so the slower reload is exacerbated by the fact that I'll use 6 shots when I could've just used 4.

I think on its own, the slower reload wouldn't be enough to make it cripplingly unusable. Harder to use though, ofc.

[Amber Glass]

i've actually come to prefer the combat shotty to the pump most of the time, at least for up close situations. i find the pump's spread to be more useful at range, while the combat's is great for large clumps of zeds in your face. there are times though where i need the extra 2 shells/quicker reload.

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

i've actually come to prefer the combat shotty to the pump most of the time, at least for up close situations. i find the pump's spread to be more useful at range, while the combat's is great for large clumps of zeds in your face. there are times though where i need the extra 2 shells/quicker reload.

Lol, shows how much I've used the CSG. I didn't even realise that it had a different spread to the SG.

Interesting though, considering they deal the same damage and fire the same number of pellets. CSG has a wider spread then?

[Amber Glass]

in my experience, yes, the pump seems to have a slightly tighter spread and also seems to penetrate further than the CSG. or i might just be crazy the CSG works great in areas where you have teammates to cover your reloads, if i am holding a spot by my lonesome i will usually take the pump, or in some cases where even longer range is beneficial, the AA12.

[half_baked]

I have said this before in another thread, but I think the best way to nerf the Support class is by doing 2 things.

1. Remove ALL bonus grenade damage.

2. Make the make maximum amount of grenades a support can hold 8.(instead of 11).

The idea behind this nerf, would prevent the support from "crossing over" into the demo class. The idea of making the supports primary weakness even stronger (the reloading time) is not the ideal way to weaken the class.

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

in my experience, yes, the pump seems to have a slightly tighter spread and also seems to penetrate further than the CSG. or i might just be crazy the CSG works great in areas where you have teammates to cover your reloads, if i am holding a spot by my lonesome i will usually take the pump, or in some cases where even longer range is beneficial, the AA12.

Sadly you're going crazy .

According to BenelliFire.uc, the spread value is set at 1125, the same as the standard shotgun, and the AA12.

Also, the CSG takes 0.9 secs to reload a shell
the shotgun takes 0.66 per shell
the HSG takes 2.75, ignoring the glich
and the AA12 takes 3.133.

Note: this is so people know the numerical times for the reload speed of all the shotguns.

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

also seems to penetrate further than the CSG.

As per Scaryghost, the SG and CSG both have the same number of penetrations, and it's something like 12 zeds or something crazy at L6. The AA and HSG penetrate more. Basically, every shotgun has infinite penetrations at L6, or as close as makes no odds.

[CandleJack]

What is this M1014 you speak of?

Is it like the Benelli M4 Super 90?

Because apart from the regular shotgun, the hunting shotgun and the AA12 there's only the Benelli there, so i'm confused as to what you're referring to.

[Amber Glass]

idk i went and tried both shotguns against a gigantic horde of gorefasts in test map, and i still think the pump has a slightly tighter grouping, it seems to punch through more than the benelli, and had a more consistent grouping whereas the benelli spread seemed more "random" for lack of better term. i agree that they do the same damage if all the pellets hit, but it seems to me that the pump is definitely the better choice at range.

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by iwantoseeprofiles

4) fix the support's speed bonus. it's just stupid, why is it even there? coding oversight?

wat.

The maximum speed of a support is the same as for every other non-zerker/meric class.

It's just that because of the weight capacity increase, a support with the same weaponry as another class will move slightly faster: A sharp with an Xbow and HC weighs 14/15, so moves quite slowly, but a support will weigh 14/24, so moves faster.

However, supports will normally be carrying heavy shotguns and still weigh at least 19/24, so won't inherently move that much faster.

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Althamus

wat.

The maximum speed of a support is the same as for every other non-zerker/meric class.

It's just that because of the weight capacity increase, a support with the same weaponry as another class will move slightly faster: A sharp with an Xbow and HC weighs 14/15, so moves quite slowly, but a support will weigh 14/24, so moves faster.

However, supports will normally be carrying heavy shotguns and still weigh at least 19/24, so won't inherently move that much faster.

Oh, the movement speed. I think that the support should move the same speed when carrying the same gear as another class.

This seem a bit complicated. I'll use a scenario.
A support with a AA12 weights 11/24. He should be at the same movement speed as the SS with Xbow+machete. 11/15.
A support with 24/24 moves SLOWER than ordinary classes such as commando or SS.

The movement speed of the support , if thought reasonably, should be SLOW. After all he has too much weight to carry.

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by poosh

I agree that Support are slightly overpowered, but please don't try to ruin this perk.

#1 Totally NOPE. Slow reload of CSg is the main reason I don't use it... ever. Slowing down Pump's reload will make it **** too.

#2 I agree that switching to another weapon while reloading HSg is wrong. But disabling reload interruption could be painful. As compromise I'd suggest to allow reload interruption, but weapon should remain empty (you need to complete reload next time you switch it).

The HSG idea I have thought is NOT disabling switching. I MEAN "remain empty".
Nowadays HSG, when switched again after burst, is loaded and can fire again. NOPE. It should be empty.

Also, a support with a pumpy is quite enough to hold down a corridor without much trouble reloading. That's not right.

Support is kinda easy to play nowadays. This is not right. Shotgun should be harder to use due to its painful reloading. Without enough time management you MUST use that gun like sh1t. That's the style of the class-- Hard to use, strong peak damage, below average constant damage. If similed, is like a strong spell with a long cooldown. There is no reason to allow such characters to be controlled by newbies.

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by iwantoseeprofiles

if you want to nerf support properly, then in order of importance:

1) remove grenade buff completely

2) reduce grenade capacity to 9 (without the grenade buff, you're forced to use 3 grenades per FP if you want to solo it, so being able to solo a mere 3 FPs per wave seems fair)

3) since the HSG alt fire reload cancel glitch thing is never getting fixed, may as well *slightly* increase the time it takes to reload the pump shotgun. if it's currently 0.66 seconds, then make it 0.75. it's much too easy to fire 1 pump shot, then an alt HSG, then another pump, etc to kill hordes of trash. there's no ammo management needed at all while doing it, so at least give it a downside afterwards when you need to reload

4) fix the support's speed bonus. it's just stupid, why is it even there? coding oversight?

Grenade bonus MUST be removed, it is NOT the issue I am talking about. It is just another issue.

(In fact, I suggest 11 grenades but without damage boost.)

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by Utopia-Phoenix

The movement speed of the support , if thought reasonably, should be SLOW. After all he has too much weight to carry.

But the support's weapons are inherently heavier than other classes. A commando with two perked guns weighs about 12/15. A demo with two perked guns weighs 13/15. A sharp with two perked guns weighs 13/15. A support with two perked guns weighs 19/24.

A support's guns aren't massively more powerful than other weapons (I wouldn't have said a pump action shotgun is more powerful, if at all, than a crossbow), yet just carrying their two weapons, supports become slower than other classes.

IMHO, if you wanted supports to be slower, you should deduct 3 weight from all the shotguns (SG = 5, CSG = 5, HSG = 7 etc) and then make a support's carrying capacity down to something like 17-20, so he can take just shotguns and move at a normal speed, or burden himself to the hilt and move slower.


Although tbh, how important is this issue? It does seem a very minor one compared to other problems with the support.

[Amber Glass]

as far as i know, support specialist gets no speed bonus just as althamus put it. even if he does get a slight boost at 1/24 compared to 1/15, support spawns with a HSG so that bonus is negligible considering they start with an 11/24 kit

and you can melee lock pat as any perk, dont believe me? heres a screen of my buddy getting the kill after i tanked pat's death claw and conveniently dropped my katana for him

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...343286597690/?

[Amber Glass]

in regards to speed or other buffs? i agree with the grenade damage nerf, perhaps so that it would take 4 grendades to gib an FP instead of 3, making it much more difficult and risky to take them down.

your arguments for the speed nerf are pretty null though, nobody in their right mind would drop their hsg after wiping just to get to the trader a smidgen quicker, thats just being unrealistic. also no, support does not make it to the roof or hall trader on HH after wiping, unless you can buy your kit in under 2 seconds. as for having a slightly easier time melee locking pat, again nobody is going to choose support over zerk or medic if locking him is what they have in mind, they are going to be packing an AA12/HSG/CSG/more.