Balance idea for TE-Red Octobor Factory

[Nikita]

See the picture above. Currently, the Soviet team always has two spawns, a left spawn and a right spawn.

For the first and second set of caps, this is not a problem.

Once the Soviets take C and are assigned D and E, however, a problem arises. The spawns are simply too far apart. The Soviet right spawn is far too easily camped by enemy machine guns and riflemen (or even a tank) near the destructible garage doors. The Soviet left spawn, while well-protected, is too far left to allow troops spawning here to easily control the center of the map. Furthermore, either spawn can be rendered completely useless for several minutes by a mortar or artillery strike across the only path to the nearest objective.

That's the issue with Red October Factory. From D and E onwards, the spawns are too far to either side, effectively handing control of the center of the map to the Germans. As outlined on the map above, the Russians only have THREE ATTACK OPTIONS when pushing D and E. Only ONE of those options is available when pushing D. All other paths take far too long to be effective.

WHAT WOULD BE EXTREMELY HELPFUL, in my opinion, is a third Soviet spawn in the center, somewhere around the white circle mark I've drawn on the map above.

This would allow the Soviets to have far more flexibility. MGs and riflemen covering the right flank could be flanked by Soviet troops in the center, allowing the right spawn to become viable. At least two more attack paths also open up for the Russians, letting them push both D and E from the center. Finally, the Germans now have to contest the Russians across the map's front, as opposed to controlling the center and bottlenecking the few attack routes the Soviets have.

For F and G, the same issue occurs, but it is less problematic. A third spawn somewhere inside the front of C (closest to B) might still be useful. Currently, though, if the battle has reached F and G, that generally means the outcome is already decided. If the map is altered as suggested, of course, this could change.

Just food for thought! In my opinion, caps A, B, and C really aren't that difficult to capture. Generally, one can blame incompetent Engineers, Squad Leaders, tankers, and commanders for any holdup at these three capzones.

[Sarkis.]

Good Idea

[Clowndoe]

I don't see why not. If the spawn points represent the moving frontline the attacking team should be able to attack from wherever they please. Good assessment by Nikita.

[Proud_God]

Yes, sounds good to me!

[Barber[FG]]

That is a simple and easy solution to the issue. A map Modder could even do that! Good job! It of course will need to be tested, but… yeah… I see that working.

[sidda]

Good idea and it makes sense that the allies are able to spawn from the building they just captured. However I don't think this will do too much to balance the map. It will open up an alternative route into D which will help, but Attacking E from the centre is not really viable as it's too open and in the end it would just be like spawning at 1 and moving to the right of the building (without using the cover the building provides from the front). That said, it might help indirectly at E. as riflemen and mg's might be able to provide covering fire for those advancing on the left.

[PeteAtomic]

To build upon your idea, create a middle cap, and also take away the German ability to recap E.
Not only are the spawns too far apart, but the actual tempo of the game is off kilter, too.
With the ability to capture E, the Russians can assault D from 3 sides, and put fire onto G.

Regardless if it were E or D, having a perma-cap on either one would also help focus a Russian attack on that part of the map.

[Sarkis.]

No, the point of the map is advancing when holding both caps, the only thing needed is the middle spawn point for the russians

[ross]

Good idea. A third spawn in the centre would make the map flow a lot better, reduce the regularity of spawn MGs/tanks, and help the team keep an actual frontline going.

[Coopsta]

Originally Posted by sidda

Good idea and it makes sense that the allies are able to spawn from the building they just captured. However I don't think this will do too much to balance the map. It will open up an alternative route into D which will help, but Attacking E from the centre is not really viable as it's too open and in the end it would just be like spawning at 1 and moving to the right of the building (without using the cover the building provides from the front). That said, it might help indirectly at E. as riflemen and mg's might be able to provide covering fire for those advancing on the left.

The idea is that you would spawn in the center to control the middle of the map. People just don't understand that the flanks of the objectives need to be secured, and the middle covers two flanks at once.

[Sensemann]

To bring this back up again:

Nikita, you are a very experienced player, plus a good write when it comes to tactics. Any chance that you can create a strategy guide for this map, ESPECIALLY for how to cap the first zone? I am not the best writer when it comes to this.

Seeing the russians failing to cap A 90% of the times is a shame. As a heads up, I would suggest this:

1. SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE

2. If you are a Russian SL: Go to the right of cap A, stay behind the wall (it's in the capzone and pretty save) and encourage your squad members to spawn on you in order to neutralize the threat of German snipers and MGs covering the way to the cap.

3. Commander: use SMOKE and drop artillery right behind the capzone

[[SDS]DOA]

Originally Posted by Sensemann

To bring this back up again:

Nikita, you are a very experienced player, plus a good write when it comes to tactics. Any chance that you can create a strategy guide for this map, ESPECIALLY for how to cap the first zone? I am not the best writer when it comes to this.

Seeing the russians failing to cap A 90% of the times is a shame. As a heads up, I would suggest this:

1. SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE

2. If you are a Russian SL: Go to the right of cap A, stay behind the wall (it's in the capzone and pretty save) and encourage your squad members to spawn on you in order to neutralize the threat of German snipers and MGs covering the way to the cap.

3. Commander: use SMOKE and drop artillery right behind the capzone

What has happened to this map? It seems the last couple of weeks, every time I play this map, the Russians can't even get past the first objective. What has changed? This used to be one of my favorite maps.

I try to do the things you just mentioned. Last night I was a SL and I managed to get to the wall of A on my first try. I remained on that wall popping Germans and staying in the cap zone until the lockdown timer came and ended the round. I never died once that entire round, and with teammates spawning on me at the wall of A we still couldn't take it.... Am I just getting on bad teams?

[Sensemann]

I don't know what happened to this map. There are no gameplay changes that I am aware of, resulting in the Russian teams getting totally destroyed.

I played Red October Factory twice yesterday, once as Russian and once as German.

While I was on the russian team, I was engineer and god, I can't tell you how frustrating it was to have so many SLs... I wish I had the position, because my team would have had at least ONE (!) smoke grenade being thrown regularly... Seriously, 2 rounds of Red October Factory as Russian without seeing smoke all the time? Are you serious? You should've heard the flaming of some guys complaining about that...

The second round I was playing Axis as machinegunner and the field of fire you (I) can lay down on the approach to A is enormous. Without smoke, I bet more than 50% of the Russians are mowed down by 3 MGs (the 4th one usually sits at a hidden place counting his bullets. It's not fun playing German either but after the first frustrating round as Russian, I didn't want to experience it a second time on the same day.

It's a pitty what happens on that map at the moment since it's actually my favorite map. AFTER A has been taken...

[Coopsta]

I think the changes to lockdown really fixed this map. Before the patch, it was very difficult to cap C in time if the battle for A was at all long or difficult. Now the map is quite manageable for the Russians if the team is not at a great skill disadvantage.

If the tanks do their job, excessive smoke is not even necessary. In my opinion the Russian tanks should stay back and find a good vantage point which allows them to shell the 2nd story objective windows with high explosives. Constant hammering of the building nets a ton of kills and gives the advancing infantry cover. In order to attack the friendly tanks, the German tanks would have to advance past the corners of the objective A building which makes them vulnerable to infantry. Good smoke cover deployed on the sides of the A building makes these tanks really easy to kill with AT rifles or grenades.

Smoke should be thrown to cover the road that runs perpendicular to the line of attack and splits the bombed-out village in front of A in half. This shuts down the extremely effective machine gun spot facing sideways behind the red building with the burning smokestack on the far right. Alternatively, good flank control will easily deny the enfilade machine gun fire.

[El Conejo Peligroso]

My thought on balencing this map would be to take the German tanks away but add another engineer for them.(this would be a good map for a German pak gun, if only...

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by El Conejo Peligroso

My thought on balencing this map would be to take the German tanks away but add another engineer for them.(this would be a good map for a German pak gun, if only...

I would love some maps where only 1 side has tanks!

[El Conejo Peligroso]

Yeah, it would be a lot of fun for both sides, the ones hiding and trying to ambush the tank, the tank being able to support the infantry without having to get sidetracked by tank on tank battles-no pun intended-.

[Johnny Utah]

Brutal playing this after GOTY as Allies - nearly always run out of tix taking D/E…rare to win (noobs or map changes the cause?)…went from a favorite to a frustration…

[Sarkis.]

I'm just gonna revive this thread. Because Red October Factory has become a disease in this game.

At this point the map is so frustrating, so pathetically impossible or absolutely easy depending on one single person. The extra Russian Tanker.

Recently I've seen more defenses in Bridges of Druhzina succeed, than attacks in Red October Factory.

The investment made to balance that map was wrongfully misplaced at two Russian T-34s instead of something useful, like better spawnpoint placement, or more reinforcements, maybe even map time. While the extra tankista does bother the german tank a lot, in general the german AT groups and engineers will take care of him, mitigate the treat he poses. That leaves the first tankista free to do whatever he needs to do to support his infantry, in the huge undertanking that is capturing A and C, D, E and G caps. B and F being easy tasks as in general, Engineers are still doing their jobs well.

To much depends on the this one extra Russian Tankista, and the effect that has is either the russians steamrolling the map if he is a good tanker, or.. they getting stuck at either A, with some luck C, and most of the times, D and E. The russian commander can't help it, as Artillery and smoke can only do so much good.

It doesn't matter if a lot of germans are getting killed, if no russian is able to make it to the capzone. I just came out of a 2Fjg match, full server, on Red October Factory. I performed my job as a commander admirably, even the Rockets worked surprisingly well, except one time I got into A, clearead all the windowns, but soon after I was alone and my efforts were wasted.

The map is simply too favorable for the germans. They have a path mostly free of dangers from their spawn areas to the capzone. That is where the T-34 would be supposed to come it. To blitz through and open a path, giving hell to the germans on the way to the capzone, just as much as the russians are given all kinds of hell, to move in the open against fortified rubble terrain. And even when the russians do manage to get across with smoke and other sorts of cover, they still find a tough fight for the ruins.

So what happens is that the map is mostly open ground that leads into heavily fortified ruins, that are easily defended, and also do allow the attackers to move and fight more protected, rattenkrieg basically. The real battle for the Red October map is decided by the side that can move more of their troops through the open areas, into the safe heaves inside the capzones. At that, the T-34 excels! It really does, and when both russian tankers do a good job, the russians have it like a walk in the park.

But when a single one of the two russian tankers is a absolute noob... We all know what happens.

I would suggest removing the second russian T-34, and returning its value in someother way to the russian team, possibly more reinforcements. Also, the suggestion made by the OP of this thread is simply a no brainer. Control of the C factory is just vital for any successful advance. Also, in the very same map he posted, the number 2 spawn, that just sucks. Is far from the cap, offers little to no cover, and leaves the russians exposed even to the E building and its windows and machine gun fire. Sure those windowns will be a death trap for the germans if the T-34 gets a clue of his duty in life, but that's not generally what happens..

Do what Nikita suggests, and add the third spawn, preferably as the default spawn number 2, and our current 2 as number 3, or removed. Military theory suggests that flanking is good, but overflanking is not. You can flank Moscow by attacking 100 Km south of it, but going all the way to Stalingrad is over stretching it

Also please remove the second Russian Tanker, it is either outperforming when driven by a good player, or doing more harm than good when actually needed, when driven by a rookie one.

edit: They are literally spawning one on top of the other when the round begins...

[PeteAtomic]

really? the other russian tanker is to blame? Seems a bit odd and very simplistic cause, to me. What about a lack of communication and teamwork, the ability of the Rus CO, the ability of the German AT team and tank, the ability of the German CO, and general aggressiveness of the Rus team?

There are many more important reasons the Russians don't take the first cap on that battle, other than having one too many tankers.