Hardcore Realism Suggestions Package and Proposal, to Tripwire, modders and community

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Neuromante

Because it's in the wrong section. It should be in General Modding Discussion.

The thing is that TWI will never develop this gamemode, save maybe for a couple minor fixes\improvements that could be incorporated to existing gamemodes. And I don't blame them, really: what is being suggested would require a ton of coding, testing and also probably new maps. These are not suggestions on how to improve upon the product, they hint at creating something else entirely.

Why don't you guys form a mod team? Is there really no one with the right skills (which sadly I lack) interested in this?
That's about the only way I can see this coming to light. As Yoshiro pointed out earlier in the thread, we need to prove that realism is the real seller behind the RO franchise, and that people want more of it, before TW will do anything to improve it.

I agree with ^^^ and I would like to add that if this thread would be made sticky, then people might think "TWI has approved all these changes and they will be implemented". As a result we will get tons of "why is this not yet implemented?" posts. That will for sure not do much good.

The suggestions made in this thread are really good and I really do hope some mod team will pick them up or a mod team will be started to implement some or most or all of the suggestions.

EDIT:
By the way, who reads stickies?

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Originally Posted by Neuromante

Because it's in the wrong section. It should be in General Modding Discussion.

The thing is that TWI will never develop this gamemode, save maybe for a couple minor fixes\improvements that could be incorporated to existing gamemodes. And I don't blame them, really: what is being suggested would require a ton of coding, testing and also probably new maps. These are not suggestions on how to improve upon the product, they hint at creating something else entirely.

Why don't you guys form a mod team? Is there really no one with the right skills (which sadly I lack) interested in this?
That's about the only way I can see this coming to light. As Yoshiro pointed out earlier in the thread, we need to prove that realism is the real seller behind the RO franchise, and that people want more of it, before TW will do anything to improve it.

Originally Posted by Ducky

I agree with ^^^ and I would like to add that if this thread would be made sticky, then people might think "TWI has approved all these changes and they will be implemented". As a result we will get tons of "why is this not yet implemented?" posts. That will for sure not do much good.

The suggestions made in this thread are really good and I really do hope some mod team will pick them up or a mod team will be started to implement some or most or all of the suggestions.

EDIT:
By the way, who reads stickies?

Agreed, Agreed, and I don't read stickies, I only search New Posts.

[Mike_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Ducky

I agree with ^^^ and I would like to add that if this thread would be made sticky, then people might think "TWI has approved all these changes and they will be implemented". As a result we will get tons of "why is this not yet implemented?" posts. That will for sure not do much good.

The suggestions made in this thread are really good and I really do hope some mod team will pick them up or a mod team will be started to implement some or most or all of the suggestions.

EDIT:
By the way, who reads stickies?

Well put.... I agree with this entirely. Mutators and Mods are the way to go... That'll make everyone happy.

[lawless]

... as always i am utterly amazed how much time people have to put into these kinds of things. i applaud your efforts on the exhaustive treatise. hell, when do you chase tail?

[Sarkis.]

Haha

OK nerdy answer:

The only thing I've been chasing lately is ManBearPig, dragons, white rabbits, panzers, milkshake, mappers, developers..

[Cyper]

Originally Posted by Neuromante

Why don't you guys form a mod team? Is there really no one with the right skills (which sadly I lack) interested in this?

That's about the only way I can see this coming to light. As Yoshiro pointed out earlier in the thread, we need to prove that realism is the real seller behind the RO franchise, and that people want more of it, before TW will do anything to improve it.

I have no experience in modding - at all. I do not have any interest in it either. On the other hand I don't feel to do free jobs for TWI either; I'd rather spend time creating campaigns for Arma with the knowledge that Bohemia Interactive will keep fulfilling my expectations of the arma series and really staying loyal to me instead of selling me out for a 'wider audience'.

There is nothing to prove in my opinion: if the Red Orchestra franchise becomes another fullblown generic shooter then the game will sell more copies. If the game stay true to its roots without trying to appeal to everyone then the game will be way more solid and it will have a clear identity. It's Tripwire's call, not mine, and I can't tell which answer is right either because they know more than me about this stuff.

[Neuromante]

Originally Posted by Cyper

There is nothing to prove in my opinion: if the Red Orchestra franchise becomes another fullblown generic shooter then the game will sell more copies. If the game stay true to its roots without trying to appeal to everyone then the game will be way more solid and it will have a clear identity. It's Tripwire's call, not mine, and I can't tell which answer is right either because they know more than me about this stuff.

Are you so sure? There are so many mainstream multiplayer shooters out there that do their thing much better than TW probably could.

The thing is that with niche games the customer base sure is smaller, but given that few niche games are released each year, you can be pretty sure that you will reach maybe 90% of the potential buyers. By staying faithful to the niche not only you can be sure you'll build a loyal customer base which will do free advertising and bring more people in, but you will also catch most of the guys who finally want something different from mainstream or wish to get as far from generic shooters as they can get.
I'd think the right way to be successful would be to offer something truly different, venturing further in "realism" territory and sticking to that. But I'm not running my own software company.

If this project was successful we would get the awesome game we want, and maybe as has been said even convince TW to take steps in the right direction.

Take ArmA2: don't you find it curious how things like functional laser rangefinders and rucksacks were added to the game after the ACE mod started to feature them? Maybe they were planned... Or maybe people played the mod, saw how well they fit in the gameplay and started taking them for granted.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by Neuromante

I'd think the right way to be successful would be to offer something truly different, venturing further in "realism" territory and sticking to that.

And this is precisely the message I am trying to spread around these parts!

[ross]

I see what you meant about the SVT sniper, Sarkis. It's ridiculous.

I grabbed one off our (dead, useless) sniper earlier and within five minutes was being accused of hacking, and was making 300m headshots across Spartanovka like they were nothing. A bit less accuracy would certainly not hurt it, and would reflect the genuine problems with early self-loaders being used as sniper rifles.

[Holy.Death]

I grabbed one off our (dead, useless) sniper earlier and within five minutes was being accused of hacking, and was making 300m headshots across Spartanovka like they were nothing. A bit less accuracy would certainly not hurt it, and would reflect the genuine problems with early self-loaders being used as sniper rifles.

It's strange... When I use SVT past certain range it always feels so inaccurate and hard to hit somebody with it as bullets seems to fall off target. That's why I favor scoped Mosin for longer ranges. What's the secret?

[PhoenixDragon]

Originally Posted by ross

and was making 300m headshots across Spartanovka like they were nothing.

I'm sure there's no exaggeration in there at all...

[ross]

Originally Posted by Holy.Death

It's strange... When I use SVT past certain range it always feels so inaccurate and hard to hit somebody with it as bullets seems to fall off target. That's why I favor scoped Mosin for longer ranges. What's the secret?

Don't snap shots off rapidly. Fire slowly, take shots you can hit, if you miss then wait 2-3 seconds before firing again. The number one cause of people complaining about semiautos both in RO1 and now in RO2 is because most people blast away and magically expect that to not affect their accuracy.

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

I'm sure there's no exaggeration in there at all...

None. 300m shots are easy, especially when your targets keep going back to the same place and obligingly giving that away by firing at you and missing. My longest so far has been 387 on Ogledow, my longest in RO1 was over 400 (measured it, was messing around with friends from the realism unit I used to be a part of). I don't know how people can use the sniper class on any map in the game and struggle to get kills... it's too easy. I wish I could shoot like that IRL.

It helps, of course, when the enemy sniper is a hopelessly bad shot and keeps going back to the exact same spot every single time.

[Cwivey]

So, you found that using the proper procedure for firing a scoped weapon leads to a lot of kills at a distance? Who would've thought that? Not to mention the part where you say that the enemy keeps going back to the same place. Taking the time to place your shots, as you described may come as second nature to you, hence why you find it "Easy".

[Sarkis.]

Edited OP:

• 3.1 More Realistic Sway

Spoiler!

Complete new approach to in game Sway. Bellow the current sway from realism mode:

From visual observation only. Green represents the stamina/breath related force that actuates on sway. Yellow represents the Prolonged Iron Sights time force. the Black ball is the initial position of the weapon. For every breath, the sway travels from green ball to green ball, the side it goes is random. The drawing in red represents what the sum of all forces approximately produces in game:



And the proposed Authentic Sway. Green is now a single up and down motion. Yellow is practically the same. Blue is a new force, that would represent muscle instability:


How it would look like in game, if the soldier was standing:

Spoiler!

Controlling Breath would only reduce the green force

Crouched Stance would have no effect, as it is only a squat in game, and allows for too much mobility. It is not a full kneeling position. (The game could introduce one)

Resting your weapon would eliminate the blue force and the reduce the green force slightly, it would also cease the yellow force. And begin regenerating the Arms Endurance bar (explained later)

Going prone would help reduce the blue force slightly and also cease the yellow force. However, going prone would not rest the gun automatically, except for weapons with a bipod

[PhoenixDragon]

Originally Posted by ross

300m shots are easy

And where are you getting regular 300m shots on Spartanovka, and how are you getting headshots "like nothing" with a weapon that has somewhere around half a meter of spread at that range?

[ross]

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

And where are you getting regular 300m shots on Spartanovka, and how are you getting headshots "like nothing" with a weapon that has somewhere around half a meter of spread at that range?

From the hedgehog at the back of the Soviet spawn to the initial German spawn. Their snipers and one guy with an MKb repeatedly tried to hide behind various buildings there or lean around the fence. It didn't work out for them. Every now and then I'd sweep my gaze down to the gully and collect a few garden-variety 200-250m kills as well.

As for the spread... yeah, no. In real life the SVT sniper would not get such accurate hits so easy, but I am convinced at this point that all rifles in the game are too accurate, let alone the semiautomatics. The only misses were down to me timing shots badly and firing right as someone moved or ducked.

If we attribute historical acceptance standards, at 300m the spread for sniper rifles should be about 3-4", the spread for infantry rifles should be about 7-9", and for semiautos we're looking at anything up to a foot to 18". I've seen 91/30 snipers go under MOA quite regularly with Soviet "Extra" match/target ammo, but as far as I'm aware snipers in WWII used 147gr light ball like everyone else. Even with heavy ball, you're still looking at MOA-or-slightly-over groups.

[Sarkis.]

Edited OP

In item
• 2.4 Weapon handling, reload times
...Being able to fire weapons after coming from a sprint takes longer. Switching between primary weapons takes longer...

• 2.28 Tank Speed
T-34 maximum speed set at 55 km/h (on road), 42 km/h (off road) and Panzer IV maximum speed set at 40 km/h (on road), 20 km/h (off road). Special Modifiers would have to be applied to terrain, only to designate roads, the rest would remain being off road

• 5.4 Tanker Spawn Server Optional
Players who pick Tank Commander or Tank Crew, are automatically awarded a second rifleman slot. Owning both at the same time. They will spawn on the tank initially, and when the tank is destroyed and they die, they spawn as riflemen. When a new tank is available a message will be displayed for them. And the Tank Commander and crew, at this point playing as riflemen, can either retreat to the Tank Spawn area or suicide. When a Tank Commander abandons a tank, (I am considering that they can, when they can) he can also retreat to the Tank Spawn area, resulting in a faster spawn of the his tank by 60 seconds. There is no more Scuttling. The tank spawn timer appears on screen by bringing in the tactical view

T-34............ 240 seconds
PANZER IV .... 300 seconds

• 5.11 Support Assets ...also received major changes

The loadout now has 5 assault classes instead of 6, 1 Antitank soldier instead of 2, and germans only one marksman class instead of 2.

[Proud_God]

I definately support the suggested tank tweak! It allows for long tanks spawns without adding frustration.
Long tank spawns is THE way forward to make them more interesting in game:
- more sense of achievement in taking one down
- more fear of death for tankers
- more use of tanks as anti-infantry with HE shells
- generally players wil have more awe for tanks, instead of them being a constant factor that can't really be influenced

Regarding the suggestion:
- I would also send messages to the tank crew leading up to the tanks spawn, so they can head back in time for the tank. For example: "New tank will be available in 60 seconds", etc.
- maybe returning to the infanrty spawn point would also convert you back to the tankcrew role? The tank spawn point continues as a valid target as well.
- suggested spawn times seem good as a base line, but again, this should be up to the mappers.

[Sarkis.]

Edited with your suggestion above Proud God, a timer would be incorporated in the Tactical View

Here's what I've been thinking lately, after a long discussion about zoom, dust and stuff with Ross.

A way to render stuff in a way to better represent the visual awareness of a soldier in battlefield, without making all he sees be reduced to pixels, something that does not solve the problem at all.

I got a normal screenshot from the game:



This map is heavily grassy, and also hazy. While haze is rendered no matter what the distance, since is a simple visual effect, it is of no concern. However grass is not, and stops being rendered after not more than 100 meters. And because of that the Russian character seems to be walking a in a hazy desert. Pretty easy to spot.

Now, if we were to render grass it would be awesome, but that can be resource heavy, and the game already has an option to remove vegetation altogether. Since rendering grass up to many more meters will probably not be around in PC gaming or any gaming for the next years or so, a way we could roll about till then would be something like this:



Now we are ''rendering'' some grass, only the grass that is interesting to us, the grass that would be partially blocking this russian, visually. To not make it a flock of grass moving around and still standing out on the scene, we make the grass add a translucent modifier to the russian him self, in relation to each particular observer. The game would still be tracking the presence of grass and responding accordingly, but our video cards would not have to render everything and bring to our monitors. And people that choose to have no vegetation rendered in game would not have such an advantage over people rendering everything.

We can also use the same thing for those dust or smoke clouds that travel across the map from time to time, but that are also easy to disable graphically and that are not rendered at longer distances:



This is a example of how grass and a dust layer, up to the height of the soldiers neck, combined would make the character look at a distance, much more blended with his environment.

And let's say we have a building or object that the game chose not to render, like is currently happening all the time in RO2 to save fps. Resulting in people with less zoom seeing things that they should not be:



In this last case there is hypothetical object, say... sandbags blocking this soldier from a particular range of angles.

Of course in this case with binoculars or more zoom or a scope, the sandbags would be rendered and we would not see the soldier anyway, while still seeing the sandbags in some lower Level of Detail. But the example is valid still, if the sandbags were 1km away, and then the game chose not to render it anyway...

The reason this is very important and should be looked at by people in gaming in general is so we can break away from arcade firefights less than 200meter engagements, without transforming it in desert sniper warfare.

ghost recon future soldier coff coff

[Nezzer]

Excelent idea, I just don't know how it can be done. I really don't like how grass always grows from the ground as you move forward and how it's invisible past 100m.