[Movie] 19 year old soviet gunner destroyed 8 Tiger tanks.

[Clowndoe]

Nice, high quality and... in the this thread?

[Floyd]

And more:
http://life.time.com/history/world-w...lf%7Cmoreon#17

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

When you hear Russian veterans still talk of the Germans as "devils" and "demons", you can't help but blame it on Soviet propaganda. A lot of Russian soldiers were fed with so much of this and similar BS that they in the end believed it to be true.

[ross]

Perhaps they were just really mad that some guys they were supposed to be allies with decided to invade their country and murder a crapload of people.

In war it doesn't really occur to people whether the soldiers they're facing across a trench and the camp guards are the same people or not. The Wehrmacht was hardly doing much to avoid being tarred with the same brush itself. It was openly billed as a war of extermination between two completely opposed ideologies - there was a level of hatred involved on both sides that I seriously doubt anyone on these forums can even begin to comprehend. I am not surprised those involved still felt a lot of anger long after the fact.

[Rrralphster]

Originally Posted by Unus Offa, Unus Nex

When you hear Russian veterans still talk of the Germans as "devils" and "demons", you can't help but blame it on Soviet propaganda. A lot of Russian soldiers were fed with so much of this and similar BS that they in the end believed it to be true.

Really? You don't think burning down villages and killing the people who lived there was enough to make them think like that?
Or was it all bull****?

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by Rrralphster

Really? You don't think burning down villages and killing the people who lived there was enough to make them think like that?
Or was it all bull****?

You can roll your eyes all you want but fact is that the Soviets did exactly the same TO THEIR OWN PEOPLE, and had been doing so for quite some time. The Soviets had been carrying out mass purges against their own even before the war started.

During the German retreat through Russia from 1943 to 44 the inhabitants of many of the "liberated" areas were treated as traitors. Women were raped, men were shot and countless were sent to the gulags. According to the Soviet "liberators" the people living in these areas were traitors who had ALLOWED the Germans to invade the USSR. That's lovely treatment from your own countrymen, don't you think ?

In short it didn't matter who controlled these areas, Germans or Soviets, the civilian population suffered just the same, and in some cases actually worse when the Soviets came back.

Also if you study the war in the east and the attrocities committed you will find that one attrocity usually was the result of another. Partisans often started it (Not so much Soviet or German soldiers) by hanging up the mutilated bodies of captured German soldiers.

One of the most popular Partisan torture methods was to first cut off the ears and next dig out the eyes of the prisoner, until finally castrating him, let him linger abit and then hang him. They would then place the testicles in his mouth and let him hang there for his comrades to find him.

The result was retaliatory action by the Germans, mostly carried out by the SS's special Einsatzgruppen, who would ravage & burn down nearby villages after the regular troops were long gone.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by ross

Perhaps they were just really mad that some guys they were supposed to be allies with decided to invade their country and murder a crapload of people.

In war it doesn't really occur to people whether the soldiers they're facing across a trench and the camp guards are the same people or not. The Wehrmacht was hardly doing much to avoid being tarred with the same brush itself. It was openly billed as a war of extermination between two completely opposed ideologies - there was a level of hatred involved on both sides that I seriously doubt anyone on these forums can even begin to comprehend. I am not surprised those involved still felt a lot of anger long after the fact.

Having watched hundreds of interviews from both sides it is clear that the Soviets were influenced the most by propaganda. They quite simply used it much more aggressively than any other nation. You wont for example find interviews with German veterans refering to the Soviets as "devils" or "demons", or interviews with British or American soldiers refering to the German soldiers as such.

Recently I even saw a documentary on the History Channel (Not the best, but the interviews are always interesting) where a Soviet soldier AGAIN refers to the Germans as "demons".

(7:21 min):
3/5 Greatest Tank Battles - Battle of Kursk - Northern Front - YouTube

I still admire these Soviet soldiers for what they went through, no doubt, but it's sad that these people have been so brainwashed by propaganda that even to this day they still believe in such misinformation. It just goes to show how effective the Soviet propaganda machine was.

[tofupunk]

Man, you are working hard to rationalize the Nazi war crimes.

Atrocities started by partisans? Please. In most of occupied europe people just wanted to wait the war out. People joined the partisans BECAUSE of the atrocities.

Also, you are comparing torturing and killing an enemy combatant with burning down villages and murdering civilians in an organized fashion. Don't go there.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by tofupunk

Man, you are working hard to rationalize the Nazi war crimes.

I am not trying to rationalize Nazi war crimes, cause that simply can't be done. I for one didn't even begin to touch on the subject of the persecution of the jews.

I am however trying to make some individuals realize that what happened in the east wasn't as black & white as many people believe. Attrocities were committed by both sides, and that neither of these two sides were really worse than the other.

Atrocities started by partisans? Please. In most of occupied europe people just wanted to wait the war out. People joined the partisans BECAUSE of the atrocities.

That was far from always the case. The Soviet military infact started up most of the partisan groups, with Soviet officers often being in charge. These groups then went from town to town to forcefully recruit new members. In short the people didn't have a choice.

And despite what you may think, if you read into the many attrocities committed in the east you will find that the greater part of them were carried out as retaliation to Partisan actions in the area. That doesn't in any way excuse what the Germans did, esp. considering that they often knew that the village had nothing to do with these Partisans, but the hatred amongst both sides and the resulting need to retaliate allowed these things to happen regardless.

Also, you are comparing torturing and killing an enemy combatant with burning down villages and murdering civilians in an organized fashion. Don't go there.

I am not comparing those two things at all, but do you think what the Soviets were doing even before the war was any better ?

[tofupunk]

Yes, they were. Who said anything about jews?

Maybe it's not entirely black and white, but in my eyes the two acts are clearly distinguishable in the opposite sides of the gray scale.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

tofupunk,

The far majority of the Partisan groups were formed by the Soviet military, with Soviet political officers in charge. The civilians who served in these groups were mostly forced to do so, they didn't have a choice. And these groups were responsible for a lot war crimes in the east.

There were ofcourse Partisan groups independant of the Soviet military as-well, many almost purely made up of refugee Jews.

Maybe it's not entirely black and white, but in my eyes the two acts are clearly distinguishable in the opposite sides of the gray scale.

What acts are we talking about?

[tofupunk]

We are talking about partisans killing and mutilating german soldiers and the germans murdering civilians.

I have not met many partisans, but the ones I met were volunteers and were proud to fight the Nazis. Their families and villages sent the partisans food not because they had to(even though many did have to), but because they wanted to.

I seriously doubt _most_ partisans were forced to fight, but even if that was the case, how is it relevant here?

[Oldih]

Originally Posted by C_Gibby

Apologies for pouring kerosene on the fire, but...

I'm interested in the Soviets and the Germans equally when it comes to the eastern front but why is it that stereotypically, Soviet fanboys always seem to be from Russia/Eastern europe and/or posting drunk (fractured spelling, grammar, brimming with confidence, etc) and Nazi fanboys have sticks up their arses?

I say old boy, the sumptuous and good show full of nincompoopery is merely obfuscating their infinite wisdom to the snootful, ignorant masses bereft of such ulterior insight as their tradition from their eyrie dictates.

[Alexander Ostmann]

I talked to a 90-year-old partisan from Italy face to face, and he said the Germans didn't start executing and treating people like **** until him and his comrades began killing German soldiers while they were peeing or sleeping, and by sniping them while they ate and hanging/burning/dumping their bodies. Then it became a vicious cycle that wasn't undone until real military-men came and pushed the Germans back. The allies then disarmed the him and his comrades because of how crazy, bloodthirsty, and screwed up they were; they didn't trust them, and some were suspected communists with Russian ties. True story.

Thank you Unus Offa, Unus Nex for your information. I felt like this entire thread was populated by Soviet apologists and fanboy fappers.

[ross]

Wow, and the apologists come out of the woodwork.

Now I remember why I didn't post here for something like 4 years. Obviously well-sourced historical documents are incorrect and the Germans were saints and it was actually everyone else's fault that the Germans had to murder them in their millions.

There is a mighty huge gap between partisans killing occupying troops or collaborators, and the aggressive invasion of a supposed ally, organised mass-murder of its inhabitants, and planned dismemberment of it so that it ceases to exist as a nation. If someone did that to my country, regardless of what my own government had been doing, I would be inclined to consider them 'demons' as well, and do everything in my power to get rid of them. It would not take an ounce of propaganda to convince me.

But hey, I guess that just makes me a 'Soviet apologist' or 'fanboy fapper'. Not one of those few noble men who see the Glorious Truth of what really happened on the Eastern Front, oh those poor misunderstood Germans

We know just how different things would be if it was the Soviets who had started the war, of course. Germans would be entirely justified in calling them demons!

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by tofupunk

We are talking about partisans killing and mutilating german soldiers and the germans murdering civilians.

I have not met many partisans, but the ones I met were volunteers and were proud to fight the Nazis. Their families and villages sent the partisans food not because they had to(even though many did have to), but because they wanted to.

There were certainly plenty of real volunteers as-well, no one is denying that, what is being pointed out here is that the majority were forced into "volunteering" regardless. They had no choice.

Furthermore it was often the actions Partisan groups which provoked the Germans on to ravage & burn nearby villages, something which is nearly always overlooked when discussing this subject.

Fortunately for historians the Germans were very thurough at documenting everything they did, right down to the horrible details of the deathcamps, and in this case why & how a town or village was ravaged or "policed" as they said. And in almost every case where a town or village was ravaged and/or burned it was in direct retaliation to recent Partisan action in the nearby area; be it attacks on German supply lines, the torture and exhibition of mutilated German soldiers or in some cases even rumours that the particular town was supporting a harrassing Partisan group nearby. Furthermore these actions were almost never carried out by the regular troops, but instead special rearguard SS Einsatzgruppen stood for the "policing" of these towns & villages.

That having been said, none of this in any way justifies what the Germans did, it merely goes some way to explain why & how they did it and how it came as far as it did.

I seriously doubt _most_ partisans were forced to fight, but even if that was the case, how is it relevant here?

Most were, because those who refused were convicted of treason and shot. And this is relevant because it shows that these poor people had no choice. It was Plague or Cholera as far as they were concerned, they didn't want any part in the war but they were left with no choice.

In short the war in the east was hell itself, and the Soviet & German military were both ruthless in the way they waged their war.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by ross

Wow, and the apologists come out of the woodwork.

Now I remember why I didn't post here for something like 4 years. Obviously well-sourced historical documents are incorrect and the Germans were saints and it was actually everyone else's fault that the Germans had to murder them in their millions.

I don't recall anyone writing anything of that sort anywhere here.

What is being said is that Soviet Propaganda was the most far reaching and aggressive. Nothing has been said to justify what any side did, that discussion you started all on your own.

PS: The final solution was about the extermination of jews, not people from a specific country.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by ross

There is a mighty huge gap between partisans killing occupying troops or collaborators, and the aggressive invasion of a supposed ally, organised mass-murder of its inhabitants, and planned dismemberment of it so that it ceases to exist as a nation. If someone did that to my country, regardless of what my own government had been doing, I would be inclined to consider them 'demons' as well, and do everything in my power to get rid of them. It would not take an ounce of propaganda to convince me.

First of all one side was going to attack the other sooner or later, Stalin wrote that himself and was even warned several months ahead that an attack was imminent. Secondly the USSR had already conducted a series of mass purges before the war, and it was already an aggressive state waging war with Finnland and having attacked Poland in cooperation with Germany just a short time earlier, where the NKVD conducted mass murder of Polish soldiers.

So how were they any better than the Germans ?

[Alexander Ostmann]

Originally Posted by ross

Wow, and the apologists come out of the woodwork.

Now I remember why I didn't post here for something like 4 years. Obviously well-sourced historical documents are incorrect and the Germans were saints and it was actually everyone else's fault that the Germans had to murder them in their millions.

There is a mighty huge gap between partisans killing occupying troops or collaborators, and the aggressive invasion of a supposed ally, organised mass-murder of its inhabitants, and planned dismemberment of it so that it ceases to exist as a nation. If someone did that to my country, regardless of what my own government had been doing, I would be inclined to consider them 'demons' as well, and do everything in my power to get rid of them. It would not take an ounce of propaganda to convince me.

But hey, I guess that just makes me a 'Soviet apologist' or 'fanboy fapper'. Not one of those few noble men who see the Glorious Truth of what really happened on the Eastern Front, oh those poor misunderstood Germans

We know just how different things would be if it was the Soviets who had started the war, of course. Germans would be entirely justified in calling them demons!

Why are you talking about the Holocaust when no one else is?

And since when were Germany and the Soviets "allies"? They both had drawn up plans to invade each other. Germany just jumped on it first.

Well, jeez, I guess the Soviets count as one of those "demons" as well, as they had aspirations of dismembering all governments and making them communist sympathetic. But that's okay because they are Soviet, isn't it?

Honestly, if the Soviets invaded first, I think they still would have won, as the total disregard for human life by their human and tank wave attacks would have destroyed the few (comparatively) and well-trained Germans. Therefore they would still be in ****'s creek, even to today. I mean, look at this nut job:
"Germany is dominating Europe" - YouTube

A German dominated Europe? Jesus. It's been over for 67 years now and people still pull this ****.

NEITHER side was justified in what they did. Partisans are scum and the Germans should not have killed innocent civilians in reprisal.

If a foreign country came and occupied the US, I would find a way to get in touch with the official military, or I would not participate at all.

Originally Posted by Unus Offa, Unus Nex

Furthermore these actions were almost never carried out by the regular troops, but instead special rearguard SS Einsatzgruppen stood for the "policing" of these towns & villages.

I was not under the impression of this. From what I've read, the regular German army is just as guilty in their scorched earth tactics in the east and murders of civilians and partisans as they are of their SS brethren.

And what account were you under four years ago, Ross?

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by Alexander Ostmann

I was not under the impression of this. From what I've read, the regular German army is just as guilty in their scorched earth tactics in the east and murders of civilians and partisans as they are of their SS brethren.

Neither the German army or Waffen SS carried out the really gruesome stuff often, it was almost always carried out by an Einsatzgruppen unit. The reason for this was that it was well known that such acts were very hard on a regular soldier's psyche, and as such special units were created for just this specific task.

That is not to say that the German army or Waffen SS units didn't themselves carry out retaliations. They did, but most often it involved executing men of the village/town thought to be actual partisans, and/or the burning of houses. When it came to the extermination of large parts of a town's inhabitants without discrimination, it was almost always carried out by an SS Einsatzgruppen.