[Classic Mode] Grain Elevator.

[MeFirst]

I pretty much like grain elevator, from my opinion its one of the few maps where the axis really needs to work together as a team. However in classic mode the map right now seems a bit unbalanced. Since the axis team cant be as fast as usual it is often very hard to get past the tower. Iam quite sure that the map was designed with the "standard" speed in mind.

No idea if you should change the map because of this, but please keep in it in mind for further maps that the movement and gameplay in classic mode is slower.

[Comrade Kaizer]

Playing this map in Classic, even with a decent number of players on both ends I can't honestly say this was a problem. We utilized smoke, covering fire and some flanking units.

It played pretty much like it played beforehand, just methodically slower and more immediately dangerous.

[MeFirst]

The problem I see is that now the axis team has more like -2 advantage and not the -1 advantage of the allied being in the better position. Now the axis team is also slower. At least for the first 2-3 caps the axis also now have the malus of being slower, while the allies dont really suffer from it.

[Comrade Kaizer]

Well there is always going to be tough maps that are prone to the defensive side. Defensive positions will offer an advantage because in real life... defensive positions offer an advantage.

The same could be said of Commissar's House and Red October Factory. Those maps feature some tough objectives early on and were made under the same pretenses of gameplay as was Grain Elevator. People play them and through tenacious and methodical tactics overcome, sometimes they don't.

That to me is the glory of the game and terrain variation of maps available, its the challenge that embodies the franchise.

[MeFirst]

I cant really speak for Red October Factory, I have not played it enough in classic mode with enough players to say something about it, but on commissars house the situation appears to be different as in grain elevator. Both teams seems to have the same distance from the spawn to the killing zone, while on grain elevator the allied team can shoot the axis while they move to the usual killing zone. I dont know if its worth to change grain elevator regarding classic mode. I think its more important that for upcoming maps TW keeps that in mind.

[TrOOper]

I tend to agree that the classic mode in combination with the anti lag and the slowed overall movement make for a very rough experience on grain elevator. I spent about an hour playing the classic beta last night... While on Grain elevator, i became very frustrated..Even moving cover to cover i was picked off quickly. I was killed at spawn exit several times....never had that happen before..I can deal with the anti lag mutator( not really a fan) but i feel they have slowed the movement too much.....

[u-s-e-r]

Originally Posted by TrOOper

I tend to agree that the classic mode in combination with the anti lag and the slowed overall movement make for a very rough experience on grain elevator. I spent about an hour playing the classic beta last night... While on Grain elevator, i became very frustrated..Even moving cover to cover i was picked off quickly. I was killed at spawn exit several times....never had that happen before..I can deal with the anti lag mutator( not really a fan) but i feel they have slowed the movement too much.....

I agree, the running speed is so slow that it is completely unrealistic.

[MeFirst]

Well I dont think its that unrealistic, right now it just seems to be a bit of a design problem, since the map was probably not designed for the movement speed in classic. Well maybe some nice mapper could work on a "classic" version of the map. And for future official maps, I hope it is in mind that there is the normal movement speed and the classic speed.

[u-s-e-r]

Originally Posted by MeFirst

Well I dont think its that unrealistic, right now it just seems to be a bit of a design problem, since the map was probably not designed for the movement speed in classic. Well maybe some nice mapper could work on a "classic" version of the map. And for future official maps, I hope it is in mind that there is the normal movement speed and the classic speed.

Have you ever tried running in real life? Not to mention these guys are soldiers that are in good fit.

[MeFirst]

Suprisingly I find myself running often to get a train that comes way to early. Sure they are "fit" but they also carry equipment, not to mention that they are most likely under stress and often have been running, marching and fighting for days and weeks.

[Golf33]

And they aren't running on a playing field or running track wearing pt shoes and shorts, and they'd be knackered before the map starts (read any of the combat memoirs and you notice how tired the trips always are). Plus some of them would have grown up during the Depression and not had enough to eat as children which is a rare problem in wealthy Western societies these days.

Running speed in Realism is about right as a top speed (bit too fast indoors and over rough ground perhaps); in Classic maybe a fraction slow.

[MeFirst]

Despite that, my point is gameplay balance not sheer realism

[MeFirst]

Played the map again in the past days and from my experience I can only repeat what I wrote earlier. In classic mode the ma turned from hard but not unfair, to unfair for the german side. With the current ammount of stamina the german team is simply said just too damn slow. If the germans take the the first 2 caps, it is mostly because of a high lack of defense from the allied team and not because of the efforts the german team made.

Beside the speed problem I also think that the minefield in the higher levels of the grain elevator is a problem too. Before that a few german soldiers could try to get inside the elevator building from the flanks and take out allied soldiers who were shooting from the windows, or the roof by suprise.

If the total ammount of stamina gets decreased it will maybe be different, but so far this map is unfair in classic mode for the germans,

[=GG= Mr Moe]

A tough map for the Germans on Classic.

Partially this can be explained by the lower stamina as running from the spawn you run out of 'sprint' usually when you are in the open.

Also, the past few days when I have spec'd other players after I have died, half the German team is either charging the elevator or already inside it when the tower(B) hasn't even been capped yet. Now that make it a real challenge for the few Germans actually going for the correct objective

So in my opinion, the map should be challenging for the Germans (less than 50% win ratio), but it is too early to tell if it is too difficult.

[MeFirst]

Grain Elevator has always been a rather hard map for the germans but I was fine with it, since more maps seem to be easier for the germans (Red October, Commissars House etc.). Grain Elevator always requires a german team that tries to push the objectives while 2-3 (and not half of the team) guys try to get in the elevator, take down the guys at the windows and the roof and after that try to cover the rest of the guys.

But as said the currently low stamina is making the advance, even to the first objective very hard.

[Comrade Kaizer]

The problem is people are using sprint from the literal moment they spawn in, instead of getting to the exit then sprinting. Don't use it at the exact spot you spawn in at, jog over to the exit (while still in cover obviously), have squad leaders get smoke ready, then sprint.

If you just jog to the exit then sprint you can make it to the Gate House (right flank) and the structures/cover opposite of the Gate House (left flank) easily without losing stamina in mid-run.

And to those who say "Well, what about the Russians? They'll get there before us if we don't sprint right off the bat."

They will always get there before the Germans regardless as they spawn much closer and have a much shorter run. The game is about combat, expect it when you reach near the first objective. It isn't about beating them to the first objective, it is about beating them out of the first objective.

Besides it is looking like we'll be getting a stamina pool increase (hopefully just a small amount) that might ease these situations a bit.

[MeFirst]

The problem is people are using sprint from the literal moment they spawn in, instead of getting to the exit then sprinting. Don't use it at the exact spot you spawn in at, jog over to the exit (while still in cover obviously), have squad leaders get smoke ready, then sprint.

That is one problem but it does not apply 100% to the axis start from the map. I think the biggest problem is not that the players sprint to early, they are still too slow to make a effective advance on the allied positions. However if you sprint to early it does not help the whole situation.

I guess we will see how things work out when there will be a increased stamina pool.

[Eisprinzessin]

Maybe it would help to give (only) the germand possibiliy to mark ari targets untill Onj. 2 was taken. So the russians can not move forward in elevator.

Just a thought...