That 'feeling'

[Holy.Death]

Originally Posted by Proud God

I challenge you to back up that claim. Do you honestly claim that being limited in your peripheral vision does not impede teamwork, or at least situational awareness?

I can clearly see - or hear, for that matter - my teammates who are by my side. Only thing I need to turn around for is to check out if an MG operator is still alive and able to provide fire support (if he's not firing as then I can hear and see bullets flying). On what resolution you play that you can't see the other people? It's a serious question. I have no problem on 1980x1024. Situational awareness is no problem in my book. Furthermore I don't use zoom to look for my teammates, it's there to shoot your target. Death screams, warnings and all like that are enough to know something is happening to your teammates nearby. If I want to see what is exactly happening I stop using ADS and use basic FOV, which is good enough. I would only ask for names being visible from greater distance, so you can know whom to refer to. It's pretty stupid to shout: "You, exiting from the trench, there is an enemy sniper! Lay low!" instead of your comrade's name.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Holy.Death

I can clearly see - or hear, for that matter - my teammates who are by my side. Only thing I need to turn around for is to check out if an MG operator is still alive and able to provide fire support (if he's not firing as then I can hear and see bullets flying). On what resolution you play that you can't see the other people? It's a serious question. I have no problem on 1980x1024. Situational awareness is no problem in my book. Furthermore I don't use zoom to look for my teammates, it's there to shoot your target. Death screams, warnings and all like that are enough to know something is happening to your teammates nearby. If I want to see what is exactly happening I stop using ADS and use basic FOV, which is good enough. I would only ask for names being visible from greater distance, so you can know whom to refer to. It's pretty stupid to shout: "You, exiting from the trench, there is an enemy sniper! Lay low!" instead of your comrade's name.

I play on a 1280x1024 screen. Might be I'll get a bigger screen in the future and I'll compare...

[red_one]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

I agree.
And why do players feel that way?
Because they can't see their teammates half as well as in RO1.
And why can't they see their teammates as well?
Because their FOV is very low most of the time.
And why is their FOV low most of the time?
Because zoom, that's why.

In order to have teamwork, you need to see your teammates easily, and be aware of your direct surroundings.

That's one hell of a tenuous link..

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by red_one

That's one hell of a tenuous link..

It's also sound, at least on my 1280*1024 monitor

[tixhal]

everyone! get an eyefinity setup! problem solved jk

[SkinZ187]

admittedly, i never had the chance to play osfront and darkest hour much...

but after watching many videos of gameplay from those games, in my opinion the sound in the first red orchestra games provided a much more frantic and war like atmosphere than RO2. the machine gunners sound so much more brutal, along with most of the other sound effects.

maybe down the road, someone will replace the sounds with those from the original... not sure if that is possible though?

[rechz]

The answer is,realistic sound,more suppression and big maps.

[Icey_Pain]

Originally Posted by rechz

The answer is,realistic sound,more suppression and big maps.

Hardly, the suppression in classic mode is plenty. RO1, despite feeling more "brutal" does not reflect reality. But you're right about the big maps though.

[Grimreapo]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

I agree.
And why do players feel that way?
Because they can't see their teammates half as well as in RO1.
And why can't they see their teammates as well?
Because their FOV is very low most of the time.
And why is their FOV low most of the time?
Because zoom, that's why.

In order to have teamwork, you need to see your teammates easily, and be aware of your direct surroundings.

Insane troll logic:

Troll Cook: Hello there foodthing. You are just in time. Please just jump onto the grill over there.
Protagonist: Pardon me?
Troll Cook: The grill. That big metal thing. Jump on. Be careful, it's hot!
Protagonist: You speak well for a troll.
Troll Cook: My mother tried hard to give me good learning. She sent me to live with these hobgoblins here. They smart. Trained me how to cook real good.
Protagonist: Do you like these orcs?
Troll Cook: They smell bad, but they're okay. They can be mean sometimes. Chief DigDag sometimes cuts my fingers off and throws them onto the grill. Says they taste like sausages.
Protagonist: Doesn't that hurt?
Troll Cook: Yep. But I'm a troll. Fingers cut off. Fingers grow back. Now quit talking and start broiling! Chief DigDag doesn't like me talking to the food.
Protagonist: I'm not letting you cook me, you crazy troll!
Troll Cook: Uncle Cajum, he was crazy. Me, I'm not crazy. I'm a cook. Now get on the grill!
Protagonist: Why would I want to be on the grill?
Troll Cook: Geez. It's impossible to get good help nowadays. If you're not on the grill, how am I going to cook you?
Protagonist: I don't want to be cooked.
Troll Cook: If you didn't want to be cooked, then why did you apply for the job? I think you'll all make a tasty snack! Boys! Get 'em

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...saneTrollLogic

[Proud_God]

^ Um, no, try again please. How about you tell me what is not correct in my post instead of quoting a bs story that does not apply here at all?

[Icey_Pain]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

^ Um, no, try again please. How about you tell me what is not correct in my post instead of quoting a bs story that does not apply here at all?

Okay let's do that shall we?

I agree.
And why do players feel that way?

You're talking about an unknown quantity of players? Are you talking about a majority, a minority or perhaps only a few players. To "feel" is something very subjective.

So unless you have some kind of measurement such as a poll or an enquiry, there's really no foundation of this claim besides the opinion of yourself.

Because they can't see their teammates half as well as in RO1.

Half as well? See this picture below:

As you can see, the difference between for example 85 and 95 are minimal, you have about some extra screenspace for maybe 2 extra people.
But that's considering you stand still, do not look around and thus are only aware of everything that happens in that direction.
You should also note that this is only a limit in the GUI and not the .ini files.

Of course, in your defense you could say that the average user will not mess with the ini files. I would agree with that.

In RO1 you are able to set the FoV much higher. But as a result of that everything looks much much more cramped. Once you take things above a FoV of 100/110, things quickly start to look very thin.

I've experimented with this both in RO1 and RO2, and one thing was noteworthy. Due to everything becoming thinner, target recognition and acquisition becomes harder at higher degrees of FoV.

And why can't they see their teammates as well?
Because their FOV is very low most of the time.

From this point on the argument becomes less and less logical, you seem to completely forget that awareness is not created by looking into a single direction. But rather by scanning your surroundings and knowing where your teammates are. Just a very very small flick of the mouse would already compensate for the area that a higher FoV would provide.

And why is their FOV low most of the time?
Because zoom, that's why.

Let me ask you, when is knowing where your teammates are important. In two situations, either when you're looking around. Or when you're moving with your teammates.

When you are busy zooming, you are focussing on shooting or finding your enemy, because looking for your teammates in zoom would mean that you're not close to them(which you should be).

In order to have teamwork, you need to see your teammates easily, and be aware of your direct surroundings.

Does a FoV of 85 mean that you can not see your teammates easily? Because I don't think 85 is that low to be honest. Especially on a widescreen 85 often plays better than a much higher amount of 120.

Also, you've noted that you play on 1280x1024 screen. That's a 5:4 aspect ratio. Considering that RO2 is a 2011 game, meant to last for atleast a couple of years. It's supposed to focus on supporting the most used aspect ratio's of the hardware at that time.
16:10 or 16:9 are simply a lot more common these days, you can't even buy a new 5:4 screen these days. Source: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

So tell me honestly, how is this argument of yours making any sense?

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Icey_Pain

Okay let's do that shall we?



You're talking about an unknown quantity of players? Are you talking about a majority, a minority or perhaps only a few players. To "feel" is something very subjective.

So unless you have some kind of measurement such as a poll or an enquiry, there's really no foundation of this claim besides the opinion of yourself.



Half as well? See this picture below:

As you can see, the difference between for example 85 and 95 are minimal, you have about some extra screenspace for maybe 2 extra people.
But that's considering you stand still, do not look around and thus are only aware of everything that happens in that direction.
You should also note that this is only a limit in the GUI and not the .ini files.

Of course, in your defense you could say that the average user will not mess with the ini files. I would agree with that.

In RO1 you are able to set the FoV much higher. But as a result of that everything looks much much more cramped. Once you take things above a FoV of 100/110, things quickly start to look very thin.

I've experimented with this both in RO1 and RO2, and one thing was noteworthy. Due to everything becoming thinner, target recognition and acquisition becomes harder at higher degrees of FoV.



From this point on the argument becomes less and less logical, you seem to completely forget that awareness is not created by looking into a single direction. But rather by scanning your surroundings and knowing where your teammates are. Just a very very small flick of the mouse would already compensate for the area that a higher FoV would provide.



Let me ask you, when is knowing where your teammates are important. In two situations, either when you're looking around. Or when you're moving with your teammates.

When you are busy zooming, you are focussing on shooting or finding your enemy, because looking for your teammates in zoom would mean that you're not close to them(which you should be).



Does a FoV of 85 mean that you can not see your teammates easily? Because I don't think 85 is that low to be honest. Especially on a widescreen 85 often plays better than a much higher amount of 120.

Also, you've noted that you play on 1280x1024 screen. That's a 5:4 aspect ratio. Considering that RO2 is a 2011 game, meant to last for atleast a couple of years. It's supposed to focus on supporting the most used aspect ratio's of the hardware at that time.
16:10 or 16:9 are simply a lot more common these days, you can't even buy a new 5:4 screen these days.

So tell me honestly, how is this argument of yours making any sense?

Ok I think you all misunderstood my post. When I speak of a low FoV I do NOT speak of your base FoV walking around. I am talking about the severely reduced FoV during zoom.

[Icey_Pain]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

Ok I think you all misunderstood my post. When I speak of a low FoV I do NOT speak of your base FoV walking around. I am talking about the severely reduced FoV during zoom.

Please read the post fully, I've included that in my post. Also, please do not ignore large portions of your own arguments when responding.

You seem to maintain the idea that zooming takes up such a large portion of your playtime that it is detrimental to your awareness. Which isn't true at all.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Icey_Pain

Please read the post fully, I've included that in my post. Also, please do not ignore large portions of your own arguments when responding.

You seem to maintain the idea that zooming takes up such a large portion of your playtime that it is detrimental to your awareness. Which isn't true at all.

Ok I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing first Regarding the loss off peripheral vision, it's quite straightforward. Full zoom in RO2 is 1.9. That means everything is 1.9 times bigger and you also see 1.9 less of the world. That is not what I would call a small amount.

And no, you do not need to zoom the whole time, but you do need to zoom alot of the time if you want to be able to identify and engage targets at range. During this time, you will have 1.9 less situational awareness, which is, imo, bad for gameplay.

[Icey_Pain]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

Ok I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing first Regarding the loss off peripheral vision, it's quite straightforward. Full zoom in RO2 is 1.9. That means everything is 1.9 times bigger and you also see 1.9 less of the world. That is not what I would call a small amount.

And no, you do not need to zoom the whole time, but you do need to zoom alot of the time if you want to be able to identify and engage targets at range. During this time, you will have 1.9 less situational awareness, which is, imo, bad for gameplay.

You've still not managed to respond to:
1. Why that you insist on changing the entire game, when there's no proof thus far that a reasonable number of people wishes to see this changed. Even when TW made it clear that the sliders were temporarily removed as they allowed for wallglitching.

2. Why you ignore m_0_r_0_n, with his very practical solution of your problem.

3. Why you do not directly comment on the arguments that I've given to your issue, yet seem to simply restate your opinion. This does not make for a productive discussion.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Icey_Pain

You've still not managed to respond to:
1. Why that you insist on changing the entire game, when there's no proof thus far that a reasonable number of people wishes to see this changed. Even when TW made it clear that the sliders were temporarily removed as they allowed for wallglitching.

I do not insist on changing the whole game, which you would know if you read my post a few pages back. I'm merely stating that imo there is a big downside to zoom that cannot be ignored (there are upsides as well).

Originally Posted by Icey_Pain

2. Why you ignore m_0_r_0_n, with his very practical solution of your problem.

I assume you mean his post regarding setting IS zoom to 0. I do not see how this applies to the current argument regarding zoom. Note that I already use these ini tweaks from day 1.

Originally Posted by Icey_Pain

3. Why you do not directly comment on the arguments that I've given to your issue, yet seem to simply restate your opinion. This does not make for a productive discussion.

It seems to come down to me and you having a different opinion on the matter, and I respect that. Whether this is due difference in our screen resolutions, or simply difference in taste, I don't know. Either way, we both voiced our opinions, and as such, I think we should wrap it up here.

[Grimreapo]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

^ Um, no, try again please. How about you tell me what is not correct in my post instead of quoting a bs story that does not apply here at all?

Well using you line of logic lets look at something that is bothering me:

People who prefer RO1 often state that the 'stock' sound effects appear to the louder and make the K98 sound like thunder...

...thunder comes with storms...

...the god of storms is Poseidon...

...and the brother of Poseidon is Hades...

...Hades lives in underworld which we now call hell...

... Lucifer was sent to hell...

...so by using that logic all people who prefer RO1 over RO2 are infact devil worshippers! BURN THE HERETICS!

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Grimreapo

Well using you line of logic lets look at something that is bothering me:

People who prefer RO1 often state that the 'stock' sound effects appear to the louder and make the K98 sound like thunder...

...thunder comes with storms...

...the god of storms is Poseidon...

...and the brother of Poseidon is Hades...

...Hades lives in underworld which we now call hell...

... Lucifer was sent to hell...

...so by using that logic all people who prefer RO1 over RO2 are infact devil worshippers! BURN THE HERETICS!

facepalm.jpg.

Sweet Jesus, you sure like to jump to conclusions don't you? Why do you even think I prefer RO1 over RO2 (I don't btw)