Classic Mode: SMG (or rifle) for Squadleader

[Kleist]

Whats about that point?

the closed poll was 200 votes for YES and and 119 for NO.


In my opinion the SL need a SMG, because i´m sure that it was the standard weapon of the real NCOs in WWII. Maybe some of them have chosen an rifle, but you will see much more SL with an SMG than with an rifle when you looking for WWII pictures and video clips. So I´m thinking it´s a much have for an SL to be able to use an SMG as well.

And if there are only two SL available per team there wouldn´t be to much SMGs per team, too.

A SL have to lead at the front, so he needs and SMG, it´s nearly the same thing today.

[Gudenrath]

They got a sidearm now. To be honest I am happy with their current load-out. But then again, I am a fan of the bolt.

[Offensive name]

Make SL and commanders go pistol only I say.

[Kleist]

That would be very unrealistic than.

I have seen a lot off pictures and read a lot of books about the WWII, and most of time the squadleaders was armed with an SMG and an Pistol.

There are enough riflemen in the game (when you love to play with a bolt rifle), but if there i some guy who want to play the role of an SL and like the bolt action rifle, why not? But the SMG is the standard weapon of the SL

And what is so bad to have a MP40 and a P-38 (or P-08)? It´s not bad for the gameplay.

And if there are to many SMGs:
- make only 2 SL available (+ 1 Commander with SMG)
- or rifles for sapers and Pioniere.

And if we are playing with 16 men per team it would be armed like this, for example:
- 6x SMG (1x Commander, 2x SL, 2x Storm and 1x Saper)
- 1x MG
- 1x Semi Auto Rifle
- 1x Sniper Rifle
- 7x Rifle


or 32 player

- 6x SMG
- 2x MG
- 2x Sniper
- 2x Semi Auto Rifle
- 20x Rifle

All that for example, without tankcrew and and anittank-soldiers.
But there will be more rifles than SMG all the time.
And a rifle or a semi auto rifle is very deadly, too.

Two NCOs in Stalingrad (famous picture) both of them use the MP40, not a Kar98k

And there are a lot of this picutres with NCOs with SMG, but i can´t find any with an NCO with a bolt action rifle.

[roeland666]

Originally Posted by Kleist

Whats about that point?

the closed poll was 200 votes for YES and and 119 for NO.


In my opinion the SL need a SMG, because i´m sure that it was the standard weapon of the real NCOs in WWII. Maybe some of them have chosen an rifle, but you will see much more SL with an SMG than with an rifle when you looking for WWII pictures and video clips. So I´m thinking it´s a much have for an SL to be able to use an SMG as well.

And if there are only two SL available per team there wouldn´t be to much SMGs per team, too.

A SL have to lead at the front, so he needs and SMG, it´s nearly the same thing today.

Agreed, I think to that there aren't enough SMG in the game(classice mode). I mean it's WW2 not WW1. They should add more SMG( perhaps more assault or SQ leaders get the option to choose a SMG or maybe both, and give the pioneers rifles). That would be fair I guess, you wouldn't get the run and gun thing because the sprinting speed is reduced.

[LordKhaine]

This is just yet another of those things that should be map specific. It should be up to the map maker to decide. It really comes down to how early the map is (the earlier it is, the less likely to see smg's) and also where the map is located (obviously more smg's are going to be used deep inside Stalingrad).

[Cyper]

I don't want to dwell into my own opinions to much.

If it is historically accurate then its the right decision. As far as I know, Squadleaders did use SMG. Question is when they did it, e.i on which maps should it be suitable for them to have SMG according to history.

[PRAPOR]

(Schuetzenkompanie c )
(K.St.N.131c (1.2.1941)
From this:
The structure of the German infantry squad, included 10 people: nine privates and a sergeant. Armament consisted of : 7 carbines "98k", 2 pistols ("Walther P-38", or "Luger P-08"), a sub-machine gun "MP-40" (the sergeant), a machine gun, "MG-34" . In a platoon: 12 handguns, 5 submachine guns (in 4 squad leaders and platoon leader), 33 rifle (carbine), four light machine guns.

so SMG ( or rifle to choose) is for squadleaders.

Now about side arms.
I do not know what the German squadleaders has, but in the Red Army then, and now in Russian, sergeants (junior NCO) are not supposed to have a handgun (say it 100% true). This was possible only if they pick up the trophy in a battle, and many did this.

[Grimreapo]

Errrm, TBH I'd would much rather than the Germans have assault class taken out (or reduced down to one slot) and it being used on specific maps (CQC offensive like Grain and Station) than it being taken away from the SL. Squad Leader have pretty much always had shorter ranged but with greater Rate Of Fire weapons from the 18th century pistols to six shooters to semi-auto hand guns and then onto SMGs. The role of the SL was to lead from the front and you cant do that with a Bolt...

[Calumhm]

Originally Posted by Grimreapo

Errrm, TBH I'd would much rather than the Germans have assault class taken out (or reduced down to one slot) and it being used on specific maps (CQC offensive like Grain and Station) than it being taken away from the SL. Squad Leader have pretty much always had shorter ranged but with greater Rate Of Fire weapons from the 18th century pistols to six shooters to semi-auto hand guns and then onto SMGs. The role of the SL was to lead from the front and you cant do that with a Bolt...

I'd be surprised if squad leaders lead from the front in many battles past WW1; having the most important person killed first isn't good strategy.

Historical accuracy aside, I believe one of the main reasons for taking SMG away from squadleaders is that when the Assault classes are taken, some people will choose it just for the automatic weapon advantage, and not play the role with consideration of the Squad.

[Holy.Death]

I think gameplay reason in very important. To me it's actually even more important than historical accuracy - it's not easy to be historically accurate in a game with maximum of 64 players (32 per side), on some servers even less than that.

I am fine with squad leaders having bolt-action rifles and pistols as it'll make them less desired for someone who'll take that class for a weapon alone. It's magnified by the lack of working voting system to kick someone out of the class he can't play properly with.

Squad leader should put smoke and mark artillery target to assist his team, playing lone wolf with automatic weapon is not helping squad and the team as a whole.

[Cyper]

That's a true and very solid point. Because people DO pick SL just for the SMG.

[Das Bose]

Originally Posted by Cyper

That's a true and very solid point. Because people DO pick SL just for the SMG.

Indeed so rather than force people to consider this option, make sure they can choose an assault class/smg if they don't want to play with a bloody bolt

[Kleist]

For the gameplay:
But the smoke is needed at the front, too.
So the guy at the front who have the ability to use the smoke-nades need a close combat weapon

And if there are only 2 slots for each team (32 player, and 3 SL slots when 64 Player) for the SL-class there will be no big SMG spam.

[Kleist]

What´s about to let the Mapbuilder decide, wich weapon for wich class, how often will be available on his map?

So there will be some maps with more and some with less SMG (wasn´t it like this in RO:Ost, too)

[Icey_Pain]

You should have seen the amount of people complaining about there being too many SMG's. Squad leaders did have SMG's in the past, and it did not help gameplay one bit. I'm glad that they are gone now.

[Burny]

i think SL should have an SMG like they should.
(every SL had a SMG as they should not enter engagements but lead their men and direct fire. though they should be an example at storming the enemy and encourage their men where a SMG comes handy.)

i dont understand why they dont use the real organisation tables
especially after there is a squadsystem

a german greandier squad had
1x Squadleader SMG
7x Rifles
1x MG
(dont know if it was already in use in stalingrad. if not, then there should be an additional pistol and one rifle)

that should be the standart for german side for every squad
minor tweaks can be made like instead of a rifle an SMG. but not too much.

and...why does the pioneer have to have a SMG? it is not pretty handy to run to a tank in the open field. often i was getting shot at from distance but i could not kill the other guy.

[Kleist]

The reason why SL should have been an SMG:

They push the team forward
They are the guys at the front who throw the smoke and have to rush into it
They are important at the front not somewhere 200m away from the cap...

In the last games i have play there was a lot of free SL slots, it seems like nobody want to play with an rifle. So there are no player who can use some smoke for their team.
There are 5 slots (each team) for smoke thrower (1 TL 4 SL) but nobody use it, or use the class.

I have the same problem when i´m playing as a SL, i try to get near to the cap and try to blend the enemy with some smoke, but than i have only a rifle and a pistol to rush into the smoke? That´s some kind of suicide.

Maybe the SL slots can be reduce to 3, or only 2 of 4 SL are able to choose the SMG.
Or there are different weapons for the classes for each map (like it was in RO1, too) The map builder can decide which arsenal he want to use on his map.
means:
- There could be a Saper with an rifle at PavlovsHouse, but at RedOctobreFactory he has an SMG (for example)
or
- At Mamayev the SL have rifles and at Apartments they have SMGs
etc.

[Partisan]Brice]

I'm OK with commander having rifle + pistol, SLs having optional rifle / SMG + pistol and engineer having optional rifle / SMG.

But first we need some refinements of the squads system to prevent squads to be almost or completely empty.

[Maukka]

Originally Posted by Partisan]Brice

I'm OK with commander having rifle + pistol, SLs having optional rifle / SMG + pistol and engineer having optional rifle / SMG.

But first we need some refinements of the squads system to prevent squads to be almost or completely empty.

There just needs to be at most 3 Squad Leaders for a 64 player server per team. You have 10 players per squad + 1 commander and 1 sniper and you have full 3 squads in a full server.