On Splitting The Community

[PeteAtomic]

Originally Posted by Torio

They are all playing BF3 and to a lesser extent COD. Despite that RO2 is a better game, this has always been Canadian Football vs the Super Bowl.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see what the demographic was. This is why the creation of an 'action mode' is taking place, I think. It's meant as a crossover for some of those players who bought RO2 (on the great cred of RO OST), found HOS to be too difficult, and put the game down to play COD. They might still be interested in HOS, but it isn't close enough to a COD-type game for them.

Unfortunately, new players to HOS who play the action mode will probably be seen as untermensch, by my fellow 'RO vet' brethren.

[Cyper]

I do not think many COD/BF players will pick up and play RO2 just because of Action Mode. Precise, its been over six months since release. My bet is that the 10,000 who was playing in the beginning wont come back. Not even half of them. Not even 300 of them. No one that is looking for a accessible game will like RO2 in general. Action Mode will most likely be like all the other modes - half made, difference is, its going to be almost completely filled with bots.

[luciferintears]

Originally Posted by Torio

Sure, as long as we can bring our hard-earned unlocks into Classic.

Have you played Normal lately? The improvements are significant and it is surprisingly fun. I can easily see it becoming at least as if not more popular than either realism modes.

you get to keep your unlocks in realism. Im just advocating removing the relaxed mode.

Originally Posted by Torio

They are all playing BF3 and to a lesser extent COD. Despite that RO2 is a better game, this has always been Canadian Football vs the Super Bowl.

'better' is very subjective.

i bought BF3 for $30 and i've had infinity more fun with that than RO2 for $40.

The irony of it all is that i was hoping RO2 would keep me from buying BF3 and MW3, when instead, my dissatisfaction with RO2 made me buy both of those games.

[PeteAtomic]

Originally Posted by Cyper

I do not think many COD/BF players will pick up and play RO2 just because of Action Mode. Precise, its been over six months since release. My bet is that the 10,000 who was playing in the beginning wont come back. Not even half of them. Not even 300 of them. No one that is looking for a accessible game will like RO2 in general. Action Mode will most likely be like all the other modes - half made, difference is, its going to be almost completely filled with bots.

You may be completely right about this.

TWI is a business. Like all businesses, they take risks.

TWI essentially needs to re-brand HOS so it isn't Red Orchestra. Not the RO that they knew at release. It's not as hard as you think. Companies do it all the time.

The problem is money. If I were TWI and had some money to create a marketing strategy for the action mode of RO-- I would mimic what COD did with their last marketing campaign. You make a very short, violent, cool video of gameplay-- with some signature music or sound that is associated with the game. Release it on certain TV slots and the web.

The majority of talk on the forum is very technical. However, at the end of the day, if TWI wants to succeed-- it'll be from a business mind.

[Cyper]

Originally Posted by PeteAtomic

You may be completely right about this.

TWI is a business. Like all businesses, they take risks.

TWI essentially needs to re-brand HOS so it isn't Red Orchestra. Not the RO that they knew at release. It's not as hard as you think. Companies do it all the time.

The problem is money. If I were TWI and had some money to create a marketing strategy for the action mode of RO-- I would mimic what COD did with their last marketing campaign. You make a very short, violent, cool video of gameplay-- with some signature music or sound that is associated with the game. Release it on certain TV slots and the web.

The majority of talk on the forum is very technical. However, at the end of the day, if TWI wants to succeed-- it'll be from a business mind.

True. The brand Red Orchestra have a meaning in a sense. Codemasters tried to change Operation Flashpoint. Most of the gamers, and even critics, drew parallels to the first game and compared it. Since Codemasters OFP series was drastically different from the first game, no one judged it for what it was: it was judged for what it 'should' have been.

So as you said, the major problem is very, very, very obviously money. A company like Tripwire will most likely never be able to compete with Activions, Electronic Arts, Treyarch at all. COD MW3 sold almost 7 million copies during the first 24 hours in Uk and US. Roughy 400 million dollars collected. Then think worldwide. Their recourses and skills are superior.

Anyone who believe some kind of half-made Action Mode from a Indie company that have a game with identity crisis will push worldwide competition, or even be able to touch it - even smell it, or get a 0000,01% taste of it, should go out and take some fresh and and re-think. Because its never going to happen. Its not realistic in any sense. Its a fantasy. Action Mode won't even be able to compete with Realism Mode. Those who play Action Mode will be a small amount of the players who play RO2 today. I mark my words on that. Like TWI said action mode is just for fun. Despite this, I can't see how Action Mode in any sense can be a priority at all at this moment.

[Holy.Death]

Originally Posted by Cyper

Precise, its been over six months since release. My bet is that the 10,000 who was playing in the beginning wont come back. Not even half of them. Not even 300 of them.

Statistics always shows that most of the games - there are some exceptions - have a very large number of players on the launch which goes down after that to a stable player count. RO2 is no exception here.

http://steamgraph.net/index.php?acti...500q550&from=0

To me there is nothing wrong with the life cycle of RO2. Yes, it could be better, but I think it's debatable to use argument of 10,000 players who were active on the release day. Because the same argument can be used against almost any other game. Popularity of the game also factors into this.

[ro2player]

Originally Posted by PeteAtomic

I understand all of your concerns. They're valid ones. From what I understand from your writing, you are worried that essentially TWI is creating separate games from each other with these different modes. There is truth to that. Particularily comparing the action mode from the classic mode. I've played both of these new modes in beta. Action is very different from classic, so much, that they're completely different game experiences.

So why Tripwire didn't start the job of RO classic since RO 2 original itself without creating RO classic ??

The problem is why they start a new base of creation inside the game ?? Why it can't be the game itself ??

Originally Posted by PeteAtomic

Action is very different from classic, so much, that they're completely different game experiences.

Theses completely different game experiences will create 2 community of RO gamers. Or maybe more if players will ask a new gameplay who dislike RO 2 original because it's too easy and RO classic because it's too hard. It can be also a new kind of players : player who will want a "ultra Ro classic" because RO classic will be too easy for them.
Maybe anothers of players will want a Ultra RO 2.
Attack, counter-attacks. RO classic attack, RO 2 counter attack (by a ultra RO 2 gameplay) And new RO classic will attack with new udpate, etc...We are in war betwen RO 2 and Ro classic. It will be endless i am afraid. It's why i prefer all updates stay in RO 2...RO classic has fews good points but bad points too : it is not perfect. As the same way : all in RO 2 original is not bad. There is good point in RO 2. Then bad point, ok, good point ok but worked from RO 2. And all problems solve by big but fews numbers patches.
By adding Ro classic, Tripwire will lost the gameplay community and the game experiences community.

And so ironical : defenders of RO 2 original will become "traitors" to RO community ! By defending Ro 2 original against Ro classic...Because RO classic will become the new ground of RO game and RO community.

Originally Posted by Cyper

A company like Tripwire will most likely never be able to compete with Activions, Electronic Arts, Treyarch at all.

But you forget Activision, Electronic Arts, Treyarch never WANT to create realist game as RO 2. They can but they DON'T WANT to create a realistical game. They create game with relaxed-too much relaxed for being open to all players.

Ok : Tripwire is never be able to compete with Activision, Electronic Arts, Treyarch at all in one dimension (industrial).
But the opposite is correct too :
This time, Activision, Electronic Arts, Treyarch are never be able to compete with Tripwire AT ALL in this second dimension (artistical)

Activision, Electronic Arts, Treyarch have surely the power but they choose another industrial way.

We see two battles.
An Industrial battle : Activision, Electronic Arts, Treyarch are winner. by quantity of their games.
An Artistical battle : Tripwire is winner ! by quality of their games.
Quality win against quantity. Remenber it even if we see victory of quantity. Tripwire well understand it : it's why they create a game like RO 1 in their starting.

The fact there is a poll asking the removing of all way of gaming except RO classic show the community will split in 2 part.

Originally Posted by PeteAtomic

Unfortunately, new players to HOS who play the action mode will probably be seen as untermensch, by my fellow 'RO vet' brethren.

The opposite is ritgh too :
It will become so ironical for old RO 2 gamers - the players who defended RO 2 since the starting of the game with its good and bad point - who defended RO 2 until now...Defenders of "RO 2 heroes of stalingrad" will become "Traitors of RO classic".

[PeteAtomic]

RO2Player said:

"So why Tripwire didn't start the job of RO classic since RO 2 original itself without creating RO classic ??

The problem is why they start a new base of creation inside the game ?? Why it can't be the game itself ??"

The short answer is money & game sales. I posted a couple weeks ago an industry paper on the market that TWI operates in. There are billions of dollars out there to be made. If HOS is able to even capture a small part of the same audience as COD with an action mode, TWI will make money hand over fist.

[Cyper]

Originally Posted by PeteAtomic

RO2Player said:

The short answer is money & game sales. I posted a couple weeks ago an industry paper on the market that TWI operates in. There are billions of dollars out there to be made. If HOS is able to even capture a small part of the same audience as COD with an action mode, TWI will make money hand over fist..

They wont.

Action Mode will be a bot-camp with some random players from this community. Mainstream wont care. Certainly not COD/BF players. If it was that easy to capture the mainstream, or even a minor part of it and make profit basically everyone would do so. Its not going to happen.

ou'll see for yourself when the Action Mode is released.

[PeteAtomic]

Originally Posted by Cyper

They wont.

Action Mode will be a bot-camp with some random players from this community. Mainstream wont care. Certainly not COD/BF players. If it was that easy to capture the mainstream, or even a minor part of it and make profit basically everyone would do so. Its not going to happen.

ou'll see for yourself when the Action Mode is released.

You could be totally right. Mekhazzio has pointed out that the industry literature on RO2 makes the game out as the way not to launch a major title.
So, it's unfortunate that RO2 may not able to get a 2nd look by the game critics out there. From a marketing perspective they certainly have their hands full with any type of relaunch. TWI has to try to make the case that their title has been 'fixed'. Essentially I think TWI has to make it appear that the first game launch never happened. Or, re-write history, if possible. It's certainly a challenge. The best scenario for TWI would be this: relaunch the game like HOS is actually a new title, complete with new reviews. Is this possible? Well, everything is possible. However, I don't believe this has ever been done. It would be a work of complete genius if they were able to pull it off.
So, maybe instead of HOS remembered as 'not the way to launch a major title', the story would become, like Rocky Balboa from the Rocky movies, the way a major title redeemed itself successfully by triumphing over its shortcomings.

[Cyper]

Originally Posted by PeteAtomic

The best scenario for TWI would be this: relaunch the game like HOS is actually a new title, complete with new reviews. Is this possible? Well, everything is possible. However, I don't believe this has ever been done. It would be a work of complete genius if they were able to pull it off.
So, maybe instead of HOS remembered as 'not the way to launch a major title', the story would become, like Rocky Balboa from the Rocky movies, the way a major title redeemed itself successfully by triumphing over its shortcomings.

Yeah, that would probably not be a bad idea, but as you said its would be a work of a complete genius. So I do not personally believe in it.

What would be perfectly possible is to release a standalone expansion pack. It can succeed and will if its done properly. If its not, thing will probably get worse. If its done well it will cater to new potential buyers, as well as the old fanbase, and some of the people who ditched the game.

The question remains though; What will be its identity? If the game is released with different modes ad different formula all the same thing is going to happen I believe.

[ro2player]

Originally Posted by Cyper

The question remains though; What will be its identity? If the game is released with different modes ad different formula all the same thing is going to happen I believe.

And why you forget this question : What IS the identity of RO 2 ?
Maybe you want RO classic wil become the ROHOS identity ?
Why RO classic should become ROHOS identity ??

Originally Posted by Cyper

If the game is released with different modes ad different formula all the same thing is going to happen I believe.

Don't do confusion betwen mod (who exist OUTSIDE oof a game) and a WAY OF GAMING (who exist INSIDE the game). We are talking about way of gaming not mods. Asking question : "What identity ?", it's mean aksing question of : "which kind of way of gaming ?".
Mods are not linked with question of identity (even if later mods can modified gameplay). It s a later modification.
With identity we are talking about a "contemporary" way of gameplay.
Betwen RO 2 original and RO classic, what way of gaming will succed ?
And if one or another succed why we have 2 gameplays ? If RO classic succed RO original will desappear. And the opposite : If RO original succed Ro classic will disappear. (watch how many times patches take time for being create ! Now with RO classic in more among way of gaming of ROHOS, patches will take more times.) Why this problem can't take the form of a simple patching problem. Wihtout creating another gameplay (RO classic) near the first original gameplay (RO 2original) ? And by this way the patching keept gameplay united.
Why not stay on working inside RO 2 original with a patch who will give good points of RO classic. A patch who give us good points of RO classic without creating RO classic gameplay - a second gameplay at the side of the first gameplay. It's mean a patch who will give us good points but keep save the community by keep save the gameplay. Do you think a game with several way of gaming is a good thing ?
RO classic will change gameplay of the game and RO 2 original will not have real modification in gameplay. New modification now will start from RO classic and not to RO 2 original. It s unfair for original RO 2 players who are real "defenders of stalingrad" -i mean defenders of this game from beginning to the end - who will become "traitors of RO classic" and by this way of RO 2 itself.

By game experiences, community will become now divided.

Originally Posted by R3bel

What the biggest problem in waiting for "the" fix is that by each day RO2 is loosing interest and new games keep coming, the competition becomes stronger so to keep the players on RO2 servers is getting more difficult.

To keep the game strong, we need a united community.

[Giuliano]

It would be great if you could vote (in game) for which mode the server should run the next round. Don't think it could be done though...

[ro2player]

Originally Posted by Giuliano

It would be great if you could vote (in game) for which mode the server should run the next round.

I am not sure. It's more fun to play in territory server or countdown server without changing kind of gaming between rounds. Playing all maps in territory, or countdown is a better way to practise Red orchestra 2.

[>< f4ct0r...13]

Originally Posted by Cyper

I do not think many COD/BF players will pick up and play RO2 just because of Action Mode. Precise, its been over six months since release. My bet is that the 10,000 who was playing in the beginning wont come back. Not even half of them. Not even 300 of them. No one that is looking for a accessible game will like RO2 in general. Action Mode will most likely be like all the other modes - half made, difference is, its going to be almost completely filled with bots.

Why they didn't understand this during game development is puzzling.

The ability to make a game, and the ability to create a game are very far removed.

[Cyper]

Originally Posted by Giuliano

It would be great if you could vote (in game) for which mode the server should run the next round. Don't think it could be done though...

Which ultimately would mean that I would have to leave the server when any other mode than classic got the majority of the votes.

[MarioBava]

Originally Posted by ro2player

I am not sure. It's more fun to play in territory server or countdown server without changing kind of gaming between rounds. Playing all maps in territory, or countdown is a better way to practise Red orchestra 2.

I think there's a misunderstanding. You can currently switch between territory, countdown, and firefight on servers that have them all in the rotation and map voting enabled (without voting, the server's rotation still switches between them). They are actually just different versions of the maps (in rotation list you'll notice abbreviations like TE, FF, CD before the map names to refer to these types). I think the post you're responding to means switching between Classic, Realism, and Relaxed/Action, which as far as I know cannot be done (and I for once agree with Cyper; a bad idea).

[Spacehogking]

Throughout this post I am wrongfully accused of having called for RO classic mode. I think that is a dumb idea to begin with, also. There should be one RO2, done right. Not three different variants of a game because the producers wanted to please everybody. The lack of integrity comes off strongly. How can a game have any strong gameplay aspects when they aren't even a constant? RO2 is supposed to be a game complete in itself, not a platform of a WW2 shooter from which you can have any style of play you want.

Also, people frequently cite that new players will enjoy RO2 in whatever mode they want... Don't you understand that crosshairs and relaxed realism settings wasn't the terrain that RO2 was BUILT for? It feels slapped-together out of the already muddy components of RO2. It doesn't go anywhere. You really think anybody who likes fast-paced crosshair games is going to prefer RO2 over a more polish and overall fun game, one designed for that sort of gameplay?

There shouldn't be a classic, there shouldn't be a realism (which is relaxed?) and there shouldn't be a relaxed. There should be one gameplay base, Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad. It is clear what RO2 is designed for and what the community desires. Why water it down? It feels weak in all aspects as a result.

[SQBsam]

Look, I see so many people complaining about classic... Could somebody explain why realism is better? I'm legitimately curious as to what you don't like about classic.

[tixhal]

i think it's simply personal preference. i like classic, but i definitely prefer realism, mostly because of the faster pace and the (new) ability to select weapon upgrades.
i think variety is good, especially because server admins will have the option to create crossover modes like classic loadout realism and such.