Action Mode Thread - Part 2

[MarioBava]

Originally Posted by hockeywarrior

I was really getting behind RO Classic, but the fact that this mode is even being teased kind of erases that for me ... it's just too discouraging. You don't have to play the mode to facepalm at the decision-making that is behind it... it's a distraction that will do nothing to bring players in to the RO brand. As many others have said very clearly, RO occupies a niche market, and the more you dumb it down, the less it retains what made it popular in the first place.

This is so weird! It's a completely surreal position. I said before some RO fans are jealous but this expresses a level of jealousy so surreal it was made into a movie called Lost Highway.

Think of another example. It's like your favorite brand of ice cream is offering two new flavors. One that you know you and a lot of fans of their ice cream will really like and one that you know you will really dislike because you don't like its main ingredients, and that you feel aims at customers unlike you. What's the f'ing problem? You're seriously less enthused about Classic mode now just because there might also be something else available in the freezer aisle? The very existence of a different flavor of ice cream sours your experience of the other flavor? really?

[[-project.rattus-]]

Originally Posted by MarioBava

This is so weird! It's a completely surreal position. I said before some RO fans are jealous but this expresses a level of jealousy so surreal it was made into a movie called Lost Highway.

Think of another example. It's like your favorite brand of ice cream is offering two new flavors. One that you know you and a lot of fans of their ice cream will really like and one that you know you will really dislike because you don't like its main ingredients, and that you feel aims at customers unlike you. What's the f'ing problem? You're seriously less enthused about Classic mode now just because there might also be something else available in the freezer aisle? The very existence of a different flavor of ice cream sours your experience of the other flavor? really?

See, your example is off. If TWI were creating ice cream, the anaolgy to RO would be like that:

Twi is offering dark chocolate ice cream. Due to it's high cocoa content, it tastes too bitter to most if the ice cream customers, but there is a portion that actually prefers the bitterness and love it the more of it.
But one day, TWI figures out that really sweet ice creams sell better than the bitter dark chocolate one, but instead of producing another ice cream to sell to that market, they merely reduce the cocoa content and up the sugar of the one ice cream. Sadly though, that recepy does not taste good to the customers who liked the dark bitter taste anymore, but it's still nowhere sweet enough for the mass market.
The initial sales were good because the marketing campaign successfully targeted a broader audience in addtion to old time fans still hoping it's taste would be as good. Sadly, very few of the customers were returning after the initial tasting.
Now to fix this, TWI adds both a dark cocoa powder and a sugar dispenser so the customers could customize the chocolate ice cream to their tastes.

Still, that won't solve the problem, because there are products that fit the tastes of the mass market better and with less hassle for them, thus being preferable to them, and the old time fans still know they're left with an ultimately inferior product form their point of view even if they can somewhat adjust it to fit their tastes a tad better.

[MarioBava]

Originally Posted by [-project.rattus-]

See, your example is off. If TWI were creating ice cream, the anaolgy to RO would be like that:

Still, that won't solve the problem, because there are products that fit the tastes of the mass market better and with less hassle for them, thus being preferable to them, and the old time fans still know they're left with an ultimately inferior product form their point of view even if they can somewhat adjust it to fit their tastes a tad better.

Fair enough, it wasn't a perfect 1:1 analogy (but then again, what analogy ever is?) Still, your point is slightly irrelevant because the post I was responding to was positive, not disappointed, about Classic mode and somehow the very possibility of the existence of Action mode soured him on what he otherwise liked. I still don't get it, even with your more detailed analogy that doesn't quite fit the post I responded to.

[Cwivey]

Obviously you've never had the Neapolitan ice-cream. Three different flavours in one and it still works.

(Thought I'd keep this ice-cream theme going)

[MarioBava]

Originally Posted by Cwivey

Obviously you've never had the Neapolitan ice-cream. Three different flavours in one and it still works.

(Thought I'd keep this ice-cream theme going)

Nice one.

[melipone]

Heres another analogy: A metal band releases an album with one side comprising of nothing but top10 autotune pop songs, and the other with what they're known for. Now no matter how good the metal side is, the other dilutes everything about the band, and makes you wonder why you support them at all if they will try to see if they can sell out and start doing nothing but pop songs in future if that turns out to be more profitable

If TWI turned around and gave assurances about Red Orchestra and that any future games will always incorporate realism rather than end up as just another arcade game series then it may be possible to do this without destabilising the community so much. But the trust just isn't there due to whats gone on before. I still think about the "Trust us" post from Wilsonam, and I think about all the other companies that end up sad shadows of their former selves

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...&postcount=152

[Yoshiro]

As long as people play classic and realism and continue to support them and provide criticisms that we can use to improve them we will continue to work them and game modes like them in the future.

[Torio]

Originally Posted by =GG= Mr Moe

I think what obviously gets some people is that there is the possibility they may (drastically) alter the existing Relaxed Realism mode to turn it into the proposed Action mode. That is unlike the addition of the Classic mode which didn't alter the Realism mode.

You could really be changing a mode that some players obviously enjoy.

I can only suggest that those 3 items talked about (crosshairs, freeaim, reduced damage) be a serverside setting within the Relaxed Realism mode. Just a thought.

EDIT: Yeah, I don't like the idea of Action mode at all, but I'm at least trying to be helpful

I agree it is probably a good idea to erect a firewall between the Action and the other modes, if only to settle the nerves of those worried about the barbarians at the gate.

But while your at it, I suggest making Action mode as customizable as possible. It would be nice to unshackle one mode so the community is free to experiment with the full range of settings.

Personally, I will stick with Realism, but it won't be long until new weapons and non-historic maps are available along with a co-op mode with improved bots. People will naturally want to experiment and I think, so will the devs.

[hockeywarrior]

Originally Posted by Torio

I agree it is probably a good idea to erect a firewall between the Action and the other modes, if only to settle the nerves of those worried about the barbarians at the gate.

If you think that's what people like me are worried about, then you might be sadly mistaken. My main problem with this mode is I don't think it will attract any new players to RO. If I thought that it would bring "barbarians to the gate" then this mode might actually have merit, as that would mean that TWI would be bringing in loads of casual players.

Trouble is, I see no reason to believe why this mode would accomplish that goal. People have plenty of other games to turn to if they want a casual experience. I personally play the hell out of BF3, as I find it to be a stellar casual game. I come to RO for a different experience -- the experience that made the mod and original game so popular. I simply see this foray as an unsettling waste of resources and time, that has potentially worrying implications for the future of RO (as if many of the problems that plague RO2 aren't unsettling enough).

I just wanted to clear that up, at least from my perspective.

[Torio]

Originally Posted by hockeywarrior

Trouble is, I see no reason to believe why this mode would accomplish that goal. People have plenty of other games to turn to if they want a casual experience. I personally play the hell out of BF3, as I find it to be a stellar casual game. I come to RO for a different experience -- the experience that made the mod and original game so popular. I simply see this foray as an unsettling waste of resources and time, that has potentially worrying implications for the future of RO (as if many of the problems that plague RO2 aren't unsettling enough).

I just wanted to clear that up, at least from my perspective.

I see your point; however, I also believe it is easy for those familiar with the game to forget how difficult it was to play right out of the box. I personally found it very difficult. And frustrating. As I recall this was one of the biggest criticisms outside of this echo chamber on day 1. Steep learning curve and lack of accessibility. It would be a crime against shareholders to just ignore if the plan is to support this game into next year.

Beyond that, marketing. Those guys tucked far away in the corner? As far from creative and production as possible (for their own safety?) The ones who earn their living on commission or bonus? Dollars to donuts those are the guys driving this and driving others crazy. And they should be.

I doubt TWI has set aside much for fresh marketing so this is all done on the cheap. The Ost list was tapped upon launch. Can't grow there. Were it me, I would be looking at cross-selling into that million+ KF list. Different game but tons of goodwill and networks. Anyway, starting to ramble on here...

At the end of the day, a lot of balognie is going to be thrown at the wall. Some is going to stick, a lot won't but it makes no sense to place your game out of reach from those most likely to play it.

[[-project.rattus-]]

I have to agree with hockeywarrior.

Also, I have not had problems with TWI producing and/or publishing little to not realistic games like KF or The Ball. If instead of an action mode, they'd made another game that focused more on the twitch shooter market (actually, casual is a bad word for games like BF and CoD, as people tend to play them even more "hardcore" than most play RO, as in: investing time and learning it to a T), I wouldn't have any problem with it whatsoever.

Problem is though that producing a whole other game is pricey. And thus I guess not feasable at the moment.

IMHO the lessons learned from RO2 are sadly these:

A realistic game has a niche that isn't big enough to sustain a double-A title.
Long time support doesn't pay off, as it doesn't generate many sales.

[Cyper]

If RO2 was released as a spiritual sequel to ostfront in the first place maybe this mode have been more interesting, but talking about some sort of CoD Mode right now is as striking as when George Orwell wrote an article on how to make a decent cup of tea by defining elven different Golden Rules during the acute food rationing in England after WW2.

[melipone]

Originally Posted by '[-project.rattus-

IMHO the lessons learned from RO2 are sadly these:

A realistic game has a niche that isn't big enough to sustain a double-A title.
Long time support doesn't pay off, as it doesn't generate many sales.

There are too many variables to draw conclusions like that

What I would learn would be:

Trying to please everyone may result in pleasing no one. If you take a niche title and try to mould it to a casual/arcade audience well you might not end up with your niche OR the arcade crowd

Development time spent post release on simple fixes/stability/performance eats into time that could be spent on things that actually may sell more copies. Ostfront was pretty much done when it shipped for me, it didn't have huge performace/stability or game killing bug issues

Great game developers follow their own unique vision, but sometimes you need to temper it with outside opinions especially if its a long standing game series

The real issue is TWI made an assumption about how many copies they may sell as a true RO sequel and ended up with a game that services very few players compared to what it could have if it stuck to its niche imo. For a first time release of a game from a new studio Ostfront didn't do badly at all..if something similar was released now with 10x the interest it could have been huge and unique in the market. It can take time for games to gather momentum and get recognition, imagine if games like Mount & Blade gave up after the first version or Eve Online or Football Manager etc. These games have ultra hardcore components to them, compared to an FPS game like RO:Ostfront, Ostfront is the simplistic game

[Verluste]

Originally Posted by Cyper

If RO2 was released as a spiritual sequel to ostfront in the first place maybe this mode have been more interesting, but talking about some sort of CoD Mode right now is as striking as when George Orwell wrote an article on how to make a decent cup of tea by defining elven different Golden Rules during the acute food rationing in England after WW2.

One of the best posts I've read here in a long time
Personally, I did not touch the RO2 beta since rumor spread about the action mode.
All in all, I dont think the classic mode patch in the future will safe RO2.
If this is the best TWI can do within such a long time, it's a major disappointment.

[Bashenka]

@Verluste

I quite disagree. I've tried the beta after not playing the game for over 3 months, and it the improvements are great! Classic mode definitely does its job to evoke the RO1 feel with slower play, and not to mention the Beta has increased my FPS by about 20 fps, and I can now play on ultra very smoothly (40-55 fps).

EDIT: Oh and I personally like the direction of Action mode. I tried it out, and it's surprisingly pretty fun. It is by no means going to replace Classic/Realism mode for me, but might be a nice distraction if I'm just looking for some more relaxed play. I like the fact that TWI are doing more to differentiate the modes, because at release there was honestly very little difference between the two. Now there is. Between the three!

[RAF_Pstyle]

Originally Posted by Verluste

Personally, I did not touch the RO2 beta since rumor spread about the action mode.
.

What?
You decided not to help any of us test the beta, just because you heard a rumor?
And a "rumour" that was elsewhere (outside of the rumour mill) explained very clearly by Yoshiro on a post asking for feedback, and explaining
1. why the idea was being looked into.
2. what might be included
3. whether or not it would feature in the beta
4. who was being targeted by the mode

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=77940

[Cyper]

Originally Posted by Verluste

One of the best posts I've read here in a long time
Personally, I did not touch the RO2 beta since rumor spread about the action mode.
All in all, I dont think the classic mode patch in the future will safe RO2.
If this is the best TWI can do within such a long time, it's a major disappointment.

I am afraid you're right about that. As it is now, no one barely plays the beta.
Yet so many have been asking for it. I played the beta recently. Two servers, only bots. Yesterday only a few players. Where is everyone that wanted this mode? Where is the 9,000 players that were playing RO2 MP during the release week? I do not expect more people to play Action Mode than the beta unless the mainstream invades the RO2 community which wont happen. Precise, if action mode exist, less people will play Classic, and if classic exist, less people will play action mode, and vice versa. All these modes creates further fractions within the community I believe.

[The_Cook]

meh i make a point of plaing beta for 2hrs a week people or bots. Just so I can see what is going on. yes, it is depressing that I rarely see people playing it. Like I keep saying game is on it's last legs and needs a hail mary to save it.

[gyps]

My thoughts on this are the basic idea of adding a new mode is not nessacarly a bad thing however a few questions have been rasied

First have you done your homework this time, is this mode what people who play relaxed or competatively actaully want ?

will there be enough players ? - and will this spell the death knell of the relaxed servers/players who play this mode now, because if the new players dont take to it and you'll kill the relaxed guys that exist now we get smaller instead of growing. Have clans outside of ro expressed any interest in this mode ? and by that i mean proper insterest, not off the cuff remarks like "we might consider it if it had cross hairs."

Assuming you've done some work on the above - then we've got nothing to loose really by trying - but the last thing RO needs is another fiasco like the start we had - it will kill RO if we get a load of disasterious write ups all over again

[Torio]

Originally Posted by gyps

My thoughts on this are the basic idea of adding a new mode is not nessacarly a bad thing however a few questions have been rasied

First have you done your homework this time, is this mode what people who play relaxed or competatively actaully want ?

will there be enough players ? - and will this spell the death knell of the relaxed servers/players who play this mode now, because if the new players dont take to it and you'll kill the relaxed guys that exist now we get smaller instead of growing. Have clans outside of ro expressed any interest in this mode ? and by that i mean proper insterest, not off the cuff remarks like "we might consider it if it had cross hairs."

Assuming you've done some work on the above - then we've got nothing to loose really by trying - but the last thing RO needs is another fiasco like the start we had - it will kill RO if we get a load of disasterious write ups all over again

Lack of accessibility and the steep learning curve was one of the biggest criticisms of the game when it came out. A decent Action mode along with bug-free Classic and Realism modes on release would have bumped the Meta score by 5 points minimum IMO. Ahhh hindsight.