Action Mode Thread - Part 2

[Yoshiro]

The first thread seems to be broken. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=77940 (Page 19 is not loading) . Please continue the discussion here.

Long story - Short Version:

Action mode is an experiment that would replace Relaxed Realism with an even more casual mode. It was created over a weekend in a coders spare time and no RO 2 development time has been lost.

It features:

• Addition of crosshairs
• Removal of freeaim
• Reduced weapon damage

This experiment is designed to help us see if this is worth pursuing for those who tried RO 2 and still found it too hard to get into.

[melipone]

I'm someone who plays both normal and realism mode. I think I've spend half my time with this game on normal servers and the other half on realism. I don't really prefer one mode over the next as the only deciding factor for me is how many people are playing.

I disagree with the need for change and I'll tell you why: to me there is already a big enough difference between realism and normal.

The biggest gameplay differences in realism to me are:
-no killcam
-no radar

Unlike most people here I couldn't care less if you added a crosshair to attract more players and to lower the learning curve.

But these:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiro

• Removal of free-aim
• Reduced player damage

these additions would actually ruin normal mode for me to the extent that I would no longer play it and only go on realism servers. Which would be a damn shame as I like both modes

the reason is that free-aim and the high damage weapons do are a part of Red Orchestra. They are what make the game unique and have its own personality.

If there wouldn't be free aim anymore or if players become bullet sponges this wouldn't be RO for me anymore. It would some other FPS I would be playing, a weak imitator of Red Orchestra.

I know you want to attract more players and I can understand that, I can understand you want to lessen the learning curve. But please don't sell the heart and soul of this game. Please don't throw away that which makes RO stand out and unique.

I think crosshair and no free aim are part of the same package. Not sure how you could have a crosshair while still having freeaim

[Papa Lazarou]

So is action mode different from normal or is it replacing it ?

Sorry I didn't want to read through 18 pages. I'm asking because you said:

Originally Posted by Yoshiro

which would get implemented in the 'Normal' relaxed realism mode, making the difference between 'Normal' and 'Realistic' more apparent

But since people are calling it 'Action mode' I'm now thinking it is a different mode.

[Papa Lazarou]

Originally Posted by melipone

I think crosshair and no free aim are part of the same package. Not sure how you could have a crosshair while still having freeaim

Ever seen FPS on Wii ?

[melipone]

I don't think the differences between "normal" and "realism" are large enough to have a whole separate mode anyway, might as well just change it to action mode (if thats what they're doing). Server operators can still tweak realism mode and add stuff like kill cams I guess

[Papa Lazarou]

Originally Posted by melipone

I don't think the differences between "normal" and "realism" are large enough to have a whole separate mode anyway, might as well just change it to action mode (if thats what they're doing). Server operators can still tweak realism mode and add stuff like kill cams I guess

Fine by me.

I wonder though, would you be able to see if a server has killcam/radar enabled in the server browser ?

[M55ikael]

A proper action mode should have more semis and automatics IMO.

I don't see much point in fragmenting the player base even further with this mode since it doesn't capitalize on RO's strong points. Yet I like as much choice as possible. Bittersweet I'd say.

[Extension7]

I honestly don't want to see this mode launch, even though it's relaxing and sort of fun coming off of a bad losing streak on realism games and RO Classic, it just doesn't stay true to the RO series and how TWI took their games thus far.

It kind of squanders what they where building on with a nice, accessble, realistic game.

I know it's to attract more casuals, and it was made in spare time, but I don't see much profit in it :| I believe the free weekend + RO Classic will be more than enough to attract a acceptable level of both hardcore and semi-hardcore gamers. A long with the long promised MP Campaign and half tracks/light tanks.

Lack of free aim just took the uniqueness out of it >:|

[Richey79]

I recently reinstalled COD Blops, and have been having a blast with that. That being said, I almost immediately switched to hard-core (no crosshair, higher damage dealt) objective servers.

I'd be happy enough to give this RO2 mode a chance of success. I just wonder if the game engine can actually compete with games that were designed to be played this way. Some maps are not going to go well, surely?

- FF's going to be plain terrible, might as well give everyone infinite smoke grenades.
- Defending on Spartanovka and GE's going to be impossible.

The development of this game has felt a bit like throwing mud at a wall to see which bits might stick. What was gained from the inclusion of countdown mode and friendly fire mode, exactly? Gumrak, even?

I do think it's more the free aim that non-ROers find difficult, rather than the lack of a crosshair.

[SolitarioSoldat]

Yoshiro can you put up a poll so people can vote about this experiment mod?

I personally dont think it belongs in RO2

[Dionysos]

Tbh action mode is a bad name for it, imo. It reminds me of Sexy Action News form south park. Basically it sounds childish. Doesn't really matter to me though since it won't be my mode.

[Raneman]

We should name it "help new mechanics scare me" mode

[hund_schraube]

watched a youtube vid of a guy playing this and whining the whole time.
but you know it looked like alot of fun.

tripwire wheres my nazi hunt you promised

[Zetsumei]

Originally Posted by Yoshiro

It features:

• Addition of crosshairs
• Removal of freeaim
• Reduced weapon damage

Personal opinion:
- It needs some special flavour to differentiate more from the cliché shooters.
- Currently in action bolt rifles seem underpowered compared to the rest.
- In general of all additions in action that reducing weapon power, I like the least. I'd say make it a bit like instagib
- The game becomes more ping dependant, so it would be nice to have an EU test server.
- it would be nice to have different cross-hair types as option (like a dot, or perhaps no crosshair)

Since the crosshairs come with an seemingly increased spread with weaponry it would be nice if players could optionally choose in the menu for action between
1) Crosshairs + No free aim + Weapon cone of fire
2) No Crosshairs + Free aim from Hip + No cone of fire

This bridges the gap a little bit between the more realistic modes. Allowing people through training to actually get more accurate with free aim due to having no cone of fire. Which could create an easier step up to the realism modes.

Finally personally I think the amount of the shift zoom takes away from the action. Its rather annoying if you try to fight a bit more up close in the action, and some people are firing away in the distance and can only be seen when you zoom in.

Personally I'd rather have a more hardcore version of action as a second option (classic weapon loadouts, no leveling, no hud helpers etc basically a more competitive setting). To get something like Action - Hardcore - Classic as play options, rather than Action - Realism - Classic. As I personally think that most servers running realism will change to classic, making realism left unattended.

[cucamonster]

It looks like **** to me, nobody that play COD will sa:
" hey, RO2 is a new type of COD, let's migrate from this one to RO2"

[Krobar]

Originally Posted by SolitarioSoldat

I personally dont think it belongs in RO2

Here's what I assume the science behinds this is: Action mode + free weekends attracts players, players that are used to spending $15 on 3 maps, who will throw any amount of money at something they like, these people fund TW to continue making awesome games that are realistic and in some cases maybe not so much. This also allows them to hire more people to create things faster and with more detail and debugging.

So if you try to stop action mode, you're only hurting the other aspects of the game more.

[melipone]

There are a few problems with this though and i'll try to summarise

Creates unease within the community - people suspect there are deeper reasons than what you see on the surface. That if RO2 takes off as an arcade game then that will spell disaster for true RO fans as TWI will then drop support for actual realism, or lose interest in it entirely due to new revenue source. People simply don't know where TWI stand on this issue, where their long term plans are for the Red Orchestra brand/identity

It may have the opposite effect to what is envisioned - ie people actually are turned off by the genericness of it all, and actually not get into the real meat of RO at all, whereas they may have if their only option was a true RO mode

RO2 initial release was like Arcade mode but on a slightly less severe scale in the first place, with the mode geared towards RO fans seemingly tacked on and still featuring things that were very unpopular with true RO fans (unlocks and certain gameplay elements). This makes you wonder if TWI are trying to do exactly what they did with the first release, but what didn't actually work then due to lack of polish.

General disdain for true RO fans (the 0.01% hardcore fanbase). You wonder if TWI are just trying to placate their forum base so they can ship the casual version of RO they actually want to make.

Meh, its complicated. But I think we can get somewhere with people like Yoshiro posting and keeping us informed. The secrecy from before release and the first several months afterwards really needs to go, in favour of openness and a mutual exchange of ideas. People just want to know where TWI are at, and what their true intentions are with RO.

[MarioBava]

I think this is partly a result of the ad nauseum repetition of the common RO2 truism that the detractors have been saying since day one, that RO2 tried to serve two masters, the hardcore of RO1 and casual gamer of those other games, and winded up disappointing both.

You know, I'm not really sure I believe this truism, (mainly because I feel like TWI made the game for an RO1 fan just like me --I really really enjoy RO2 Realism mode, and secondarily because I think this 'Action mode' experiment sort of proves that the 'Arcade'/'Casual' gamer was not originally truly a primary target for the release product) but it seems like it took root and some at TWI have taken a cue from it. *By the way, I must say I think it is patently ridiculous for anyone to be talking about a dichotomy between the 'casual' gamer and others. It's all games, people. Games. I know, there are different types of games and different levels of involvement in the games by players, I get it; RO:Ost wasn't "Peggle". But, get over yourself. You can't be serious about a game as a player unless perhaps your livelihood comes from competitive gaming, and even then, isn't that a pretty sweet gig? Maybe there's something to it, maybe RO2 can try even harder than it did to serve two masters. Maybe, they might be thinking, we didn't try hard enough with either end of the RO2 customer spectrum.

Heck, they've been working on Classic mode and it looks like it just may be a success, why not also offer a more casual mode than made the first cut, if RO2's basic weakness really was that it never offered enough of what either the hardcore or the casual gamer could get into? Could it really hurt? Is it really impossible for a game with 3 distinct modes to succeed at any of them?? Why?

The problem is they didn't necessarily perceive how capable the "core" fanbase is of imagining they are holding the game hostage by vociferously declaring that they have uninstalled it and will never buy TWI games ever again, over nothing more than the spare-time development of an experimental mode that makes no changes to either Realism mode or Classic mode and given how little relaxed is played will likely have much less of an impact than Classic mode will have on server availability.

Some RO fans really are a jealous bunch. Nobody is allowed to play their game casually and soil it with their filthy cheese-puff-stained fingers. "If I can't have her, no one can, so I'm going to uninstall her and hope she dies. And her parents with her." is almost between the lines of some of the posts we've seen. Some people have an almost Old Testament feeling about this move, that they vengefully hope the metaphorical plagues be upon TWI for putting --cross your IS2's heart-- crosshairs(!) even into an experimental test run of the beta, and that all the company's seeds it ever sows hereafter wither and die. I do exaggerate for effect. And maybe those posts really are the tiniest fraction of us all and their uninstalling the game forever and ever will hardly be a blip on the overall RO2 radar, and the vast vast majority of us who actually do play the game are more reasonable about it. "Try it," we shrug, "it couldn't really hurt." But those types of reactions are somehow both astonishing to me and at the same time not surprising at all.

I didn't get the chance to try it out, I regret. If it ever goes live into the actual game, I will try it out, though I don't love the idea of crosshairs or the idea of higher survivability. I for one am in love (just an expression) with the lethality of RO2's battlefields.

[The_Cook]

meh... I really don't like it. But hey, Making RO2 more accessible and like COD was a brilliant idea, kinda like the leveling system. Worked out real great for you guys with the launch. Have fun with it. I'll play it a couple of times, I'll give you an opinion. Don't get butt hurt about what I have to say about it.

[Cpt-Praxius]

Quote I saw in the locked thread:

Originally Posted by TW-Wilsonam

Ok, I have to admit I am both disappointed and, perhaps, not too surprised.

1. In case people hadn't noticed, the hardcore RO1 fanbase has had pretty much the core of the studio dedicated to its needs very directly and openly for the last few weeks, if not most of this year.

Indeed and completely agree that the RO Ostfront fans (Hardcore) have had basically all concentration from the devs put on them for the last few months..... and while now TW focuses on the people who want things a lot more relaxed, the people in the middle of these two (myself and a few others) who enjoyed RO2 as it was, have been left in the dust for a while now.

2. The "they" that have been asking about this stuff has been representatives of the competitive gaming scene and a lot of their clans, who were all interested in RO2 back last year. many bought the game, to try it out - and found it just too much learning curve to take on/too "hardcore" for their tastes. A good number of said community have also got bored of trying to communicate through these forums, because they get pounded on by the "RO faithful" every time they do. They also pointed out that they'd like to get into the game, but only if we can make a step or two in their direction.

Fair enough I suppose.

3. This is an experiment - and all the work to date has actually been done in people's spare time, outside work. So the "RO faithful" have lost absolutely nothing in terms of working hours from the studio.

Not including those who have had the Dev's time taken to work on this RO Classic.

And while this action mode has been done in the spare time of the devs as you say... will this action mode now take up further in-house development time with you guys continually patching and working on this action mode, similar to how long it is taking you guys to get RO Classic setup properly??

Let us all keep in mind that the community isn't just split between the "Hardcore" players and the "Super Relaxed" players.... but there's a third group of players right smack dab in the middle who've been left behind for a long while now.

Yes, bug fixes and patches have come out in the last few months since release, but those fixes were mostly to cover the problems every group would experience..... once they've been ironed out, the focus has jumped right to the hardcore guys, and now to the super relaxed guys..... with nothing mentioned about what everybody else in the middle can expect.

4. It may turn out to be a waste of people's (weekend and evening) time. But if we don't experiment, if we don't try new things, new directions, we will eventually die out - and that will also write off any support for the "RO faithful". And don't get us wrong - we have learned a lesson about community support.

Fair enough.

5. BUT we are not just trying to support the community that makes itself felt very visibly and very vocally on these forums. We are trying to support multiple communities - and grow some of them. So, we WILL experiment. Some experiments will work, some will fail.

Honestly and with respect, it doesn't seem like that's the case. Those who spam the forums and complain all the time seem to be the ones who get the most attention and get what they want..... ie: the RO Classic guys..... and it would seem these super relaxed guys have been vocal enough for you guys to decide to add in this action mode..... so it would seem logical that everybody else stuck in between these two groups need to get just as vocal as well.

Many of us have been pretty patient and pretty quiet in the last few months because we've enjoyed the game as it was, understood that other things needed to be worked on.... so we've waited quietly for new things to start coming into the game, yet it would seem perhaps we've been too quiet for too long, as nothing (Content-wise) has even come close to getting added to the game, with the exception of perhaps one map..... eventually.

All that is needed to keep the middle group happy is if one thing.... just one simple thing was brought into the game every few months..... even if it's another pistol or something like that.... they'd see that progress is being made and the game hasn't just stalled on game modes..... and one simple thing like a new weapon would be enough to keep people engaged and somewhat fresh. Transports and vehicles would be nice, but everybody knows they're not easy to push out of the wood works, thus something like another weapon could make all the difference and those in the middle group probably wouldn't care if you guys spent a bit more time on RO Classic and Action-Super Relaxed Mode.

While the RO Classic fellas get what they want, and while the guys wanting something easier are getting what they want..... those in the middle who've supported the game up to this point and have enjoyed the game from the get-go.... are now getting bored and burnt out from playing the same maps, the same two tanks and the same weapons..... just one simple thing added into the game could make all the difference.

Now, in the original post, Jared pointed out that this may not cater to "your" taste. If not, leave it alone, move along and let us get on with our jobs. Going off on major (and very public) rants will only help to confirm the view of many "outside" that these forums are dominated by elitist pricks who don't give a rat's arse for anyone else's possible point of view or taste.

Also a fair point.... but I still have my own concerns about me currently enjoying both Relaxed Realism & Realism, now Relaxed sounds like it will be this Action mode (which I am not interested in) and further reducing the available servers I can choose from once RO Classic goes live too.

Unless more servers for RO2 become available, the servers and game modes I enjoy will now be cut down by 2/3, rather than just 1/3 when RO Classic becomes live.

Is there any information to address this concern?

To summarise: if you don't like it, LEAVE IT ALONE, as it is not an experiment targeted at you - and it affects you in no negative way whatsoever.

As with my above comment about reduction in available servers for me to choose from that have the game mode I enjoy, I disagree.

There's already a very small selection of available servers for people to choose from right now..... I have perhaps 3-5 good servers in my area I can choose from (all but 1 is usually empty and full of bots).... once RO Classic goes live and once this Action Mode goes live, I will be directly affected and if I'm lucky, I might find 1 server I can play on that has the game mode I enjoy.

That's an affect that will impact me and my playing ability in a pretty negative way.

No time has been taken away from Classic mode development, or from the MP Campaign or anything else. We, Tripwire Interactive, are interested to see if this will actually work for a bunch of people largely OUTSIDE this forum, who have spent nearly two years talking to us about it.

And see right there... that wording basically spells out very clearly that everyone in the middle have been forgotten about.

I personally don't care about RO Classic, and I don't care about the Action Mode..... I know others do and I'm not trying to take away from their interests, but I'm merely pointing out that there are many players stuck in the middle of these two groups who've been abandoned for the last few months while bug fixes, patches, RO Classic and now Action mode are fiddled around with.

While these two groups are entirely focused on in the next few more months, you risk losing the people stuck in the middle who've been supporting you this whole time and keeping the game alive this long... whom are now getting tired and burnt out with nothing new coming in to keep their interests.

If you can't get your head around the concept that we can address the long-term fanbase's needs AND find a little extra time to run a little experiment, then please keep your trap shut on the subject.

While still not addressing the concerns of those stuck between these two more vocal groups and thus, creating a third vocal group in the process..... who've been more than quiet and patient (as well as supportive) for a lot longer than these other two groups.

Attitude given is attitude returned..... I can get my head around all of the above, but it doesn't seem some people are getting their head around the fact that there's a third group that's been forgotten about for a long time, and who are starting to lose their interest.