Normal/Relaxed Realism Experiment

[Holy.Death]

Originally Posted by Darrosquall

I know I know, but both servers are always in Classic mode.

And I hope they'll remain as such. It'd be really disappointing for me to see Classic mode servers disabled for the sake of Normal/Relaxed Realism mode I am not willing to play. The best course would be to just add two new servers. Still, even if I don't care for Normal/Relaxed Realism it is a good thing that TWI is supporting its games.

[Krobar]

Originally Posted by Darrosquall

I know I know, but both servers are always in Classic mode.

I believe TWB's US beta server is still titled "Classic Mode" yet it has been changed to "Action Mode" for testing.

[Krobar]

Originally Posted by lods of emone

This might have worked...on a console.

Casual gamers will not play a "realistic" WW2 Eastern Front PC exclusive FPS that requires a fairly high-end system (need to possess either the knowledge and time to build yourself, or the money blow it on a pre-built "gaming PC"). You're trying to appeal to a market that does not, or barely exists.

From experience with people who prefer CoD on PC, some of them have pretty good rigs. Better than mine and I play RO2 with medium-high graphics at 30FPS, and my rig is stock from about 5 years ago with a low end GPU from 2 years ago in it. The thing is UE3 and other multi-platform engines all depend mostly on processor so the people who play other multi-platform engines and have made careful decisions on how to adapt for them will be able to play this game just as easily as CoD or BF.

After studying CoD and BF and their communities for the past 2 months or so, I feel that about 1/2 - 2/3 of the CoD community would be interested and maybe take RO2 as a secondary game and possibly a whole 2/3 of the BF community may do the same.*

And as long as just enough more emphasis is put towards more realistic gamemodes we may see an expansion in that community as well.

*(Being very optimistic)

[Floyd]

Originally Posted by Darrosquall

I know I know, but both servers are always in Classic mode.

They just have classic in the title. The US TWB New Glory server is running a FF map with crosshairs at this very moment.

[Torio]

Originally Posted by >< f4ct0r...13

It is amazing that TWI decided to split the community in so many ways.

Let me fix that for you.

"It is amazing Tripwire decided to grow the community in so many ways."

I am shocked.

[Giuliano]

Originally Posted by LordSteve

Skills with a crosshair?? It supports only run and gun!! Look on CS or Cod, than you can see how effective it is!! At the moment more bots are playing than human players!! Muahah!

Dude, the crosshair is only being used in ONE of the modes. Classic mode wont have a crosshair and neither with the realism mode. How on earth would a crosshair in only ONE of the modes promote run and gun tactics across the ENTIRE game?

[I. Kant]

One small thing regarding this whole overblown affair I'd like to point out (not that it is of great consequence, just something I noticed):

There was no update for the Action mode; therefore, it had been slipped in with the last update and was needing a server for us to experience it. Little does this prove, save for that when Yosh made the announcement, it had already been in our beta clients.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[Torio]

Originally Posted by I. Kant

One small thing regarding this whole overblown affair I'd like to point out (not that it is of great consequence, just something I noticed):

There was no update for the Action mode; therefore, it had been slipped in with the last update and was needing a server for us to experience it. Little does this prove, save for that when Yosh made the announcement, it had already been in our beta clients.

Correct me if I am wrong.

I didn't notice an update before it went live so yeah, it was a probably included in the last update. Hmm I wonder if there are half-tracks hidden in there somewhere too....

[Olivier]

Originally Posted by Torio

I didn't notice an update before it went live so yeah, it was a probably included in the last update. Hmm I wonder if there are half-tracks hidden in there somewhere too....

The models are done IIRC, but TWI didn't start working on how they are going to work....

[BL4Z3>FAS>]

The atmosphere or realism to me vanishes with these....
Addition of a crosshair
Removal of free-aim
Reduced player damage

I guess if you are trying to attract those who dont like realistic player damage & wish to just run around & shoot stuff without actually having to aim a weapon , that might be a mode they would like ,..but to me kind of defeats the whole spirit of what RO means to me ,...
Whatever you do , I guess as long as I can play a realistic version & not be forced into arcade mode ,...I guess Ill live with it...

[Torio]

Originally Posted by BL4Z3>FAS>

The atmosphere or realism to me vanishes with these....
Addition of a crosshair
Removal of free-aim
Reduced player damage

I guess if you are trying to attract those who dont like realistic player damage & wish to just run around & shoot stuff without actually having to aim a weapon , that might be a mode they would like ,..but to me kind of defeats the whole spirit of what RO means to me ,...
Whatever you do , I guess as long as I can play a realistic version & not be forced into arcade mode ,...I guess Ill live with it...

All true. I played it yesterday and while the rock and roll took me back to my RTCW and MOH days, I am firmly entrenched in the realism modes. I am happy as long as they keep up with Classic and Realism.

Still, the fact they are experimenting in this direction tells me the raw data paints a slightly different picture of the avg RO2 player than we hearing inside the echo chamber.

[Krobar]

Originally Posted by Torio

Let me fix that for you.

"It is amazing Tripwire decided to grow the community in so many ways."

I am shocked.

Maybe we'll need to make a council of representatives, taking 2 representatives from Classic, Realism, and Action modes to keep the community together and civil.

But yes this move is pretty ingenious, if it works.

[dweeb]

Originally Posted by Krobar

You Devs are manaical geniuses. The removal of free aim was actually the most crucial part...

Yeah what is funny is that all the knee jerk comments were so obsessed with the cross-hairs (which when actually tested, have VERY little impact on game-play - the cross hairs are very wide) that they totally ignored the free aim change which has a MUCH bigger impact. With no free aim, (bolt action) rifle shots almost always land in the center of the screen, so some people in this mode will be able to master long range rifle shots without ever using the iron sights. It actually has a much bigger impact on rifle play than smgs/etc.

[Holy.Death]

Honestly, there is no reason to overexaggerate.

The whole normal/relaxed realism experiment won't affect classic, as stated before. It's a win-win situation for us. If it falls then classic will remain supported as it is (because work on experiment is done on free time of the TWI and not at cost of other projects), suffering no effects because of this. If it succeeds then TWI and the community will be able to expand gaining both money and popularity it deserves.

I have to agree that climate on the forum here isn't good for more casual players, which is quite sad, because each player is potential classic player (I joined the community before classic beta and after launch of vanilla). The Old Guard is quite visible and vocal, but they shouldn't suppress everything they don't like just because they don't like it...

I haven't seen any real argument why not to try this experiment.

[Bob Joel]

I suggest increasing the amount of damage that rifles inflict, giving them a reason to be there... also, because hipping with a bolt is hilarious fun.

[Dix_Johnson]

Wouldn't the logical thing be to worry about getting the older members back into the game first and then worry about attracting new players?

I have been playing RO since it's mod days and if you can't do anything to convince ME that these new features are good than how are you going to convince someone who likes COD or BF3?

I understand what you guys are trying to accomplish with the crosshairs and different modes but why are you wasting your time? The long time fans wont bother playing any of the other modes and the "casuals" wont play it for more than 20 minutes because another game does it WAY better.

This is copied right from ROOSTs Steam Store page:
Reviews

"... RO is also one of the market's most unique new shooters"
4/5 Stars - Gamespy
Tripwire's attention to accessible realism is unrivaled"
- Computer Gaming World
"Red Orchestra offers exactly the right mixture of action and realism"
- PC PowerPlay

"Unique Mixture of Action and Realism".

Stick with what you're good at guys. Any effort to make RO more casual WILL fail... Horribly.

[Floyd]

Originally Posted by dweeb

Yeah what is funny is that all the knee jerk comments were so obsessed with the cross-hairs (which when actually tested, have VERY little impact on game-play - the cross hairs are very wide) that they totally ignored the free aim change which has a MUCH bigger impact. With no free aim, (bolt action) rifle shots almost always land in the center of the screen, so some people in this mode will be able to master long range rifle shots without ever using the iron sights. It actually has a much bigger impact on rifle play than smgs/etc.

In my playing hour, the mosin nagant fired nowhere near the center. Though it was rather consistent in that most of the time if fired just to the right of the lower most crosshair. I'll have to try some of the other weapons out, but thats what I found with the Mosin.

[melipone]

I just hope the new players get a chance to try all the modes, because I expect it will be a bit like playing RO Roulette. New players won't know that action mode is significantly different to the other modes. They may try arcade mode and get a bit of sick in their mouth, or they will try realism mode and assume they dumbed down RO, or they will join Classic and maybe that won't be to their taste either.

I just think it needlessly overcomplicates things and probably isn't worth alienating the playerbase, or making them unsure of whether RO will end up just another arcade game in the future.

Maybe it will be a runaway success and get thousands of people playing and allow TWI to justify further development..its risky though and I'm not convinced it will work as imagined. I always felt that the "relaunch" should have a very clear focus and intent, to target a very specific part of the playerbase and get them onboard, without muddying the waters or making people unsure of TWI's direction

[Holy.Death]

Originally Posted by melipone

I just hope the new players get a chance to try all the modes, because I expect it will be a bit like playing RO Roulette.

Good point. There should be information mentioning two other game modes when trying to access one of the three, to inform people about their existence and difference.

[[TW]Wilsonam]

Let me see if I can remember why I multi-quoted all of these...

Originally Posted by Yoshiro

Now as Community Manager for Tripwire Interactive my primary job is making sure all the voices and groups in the community also get their voices heard (as well as getting shot at by the community for being the messenger). Help me do my job by presenting rational constructive criticism that I can take to the team.

Absolutely. 100% correct. We never had a full-time "channel" for the community until recently, so you were all reliant on one/some of us spotting what was being said. Now you have someone full-time fighting your corner for you - so provide him with things he can use! Rabid vitriol and abuse does NOT help anyone.

Originally Posted by Kipper

Yoshiro, you've gotten constructive criticism out the *** for the past ten months.

1. Buried in piles of sh1t and bile...
2. Without a full-time community manager to look at it, at a time when we were heavily (over)stretched.

Originally Posted by melipone

I get the feeling most of the TWI dev team are just not really fans of Ostfront at all

Nope. We used to love Ostfront. But we've also been buried in RO2 for so long that Ostfront is "the past". Most of us prefer "Realism" to "Classic", probably. Although "Classic" is kinda re-growing on us, too. Complicated and confusing - a reason we went back to open Betas for our tests and experiments. We've learned we can't count SOLELY on our own taste any more - with RO or with KF.

Originally Posted by Krobar

Back on topic: I still can't believe this "action" mode was made either extremely quickly or right under our noses.

The core elements were put together by one coder, last weekend. We thought we'd drop it into the Beta update last week, so we could invite a few people to try it out and see if it might be worth investing actual studio time in.

Originally Posted by Floyd

<my rant for the day>
I'm sorry long time players feel so butt-hurt and betrayed. I, too, was dis-appointed with the initial release. I was more dis-appointed with the performance issues than anything else. [And then the incessant adolescent type of complaining and bit*hing (ala FMR's post above. Not the constructive criticism) that continued in the servers just killed any chance of enjoyment for me.] I understand the hurt, but I don't understand the grudges. Help make the game better by offering opinions. If TW's opinion differs from yours or if they fail to acknowledge yours, then so be it. You have done your part. Either continue to work with them by offering civil suggestions or man up and leave. The "you've ruined the game, I hope you choke" or "you should have listened to me. I've never been wrong." banter went out of style in the 5th grade....(and that was like 1962? or so for me. It remains as sophomoric today as it was back then.)
<end of my rant>

Agreed. Back to the point about supplying Yoshi with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and suggestions. "TWI i hates u nd hopes u die horibly" will now just get you a punch in the teeth - aka an infraction.

Originally Posted by TrOOper

Ok, you got a refund and dont play, yet we have to read your stupid rant about the game..Lets hope the moderators will follow your advice....good riddance!

Someone got to him before I did.

Originally Posted by Golf33

If the Action/Arcade mode goes live, how are new players brought in by those modes going to be supported when they find themselves (by intent or accident) on a Realism or Classic server?

They'll find basic gameplay mechanics like aiming, moving and damage suddenly very different from what they are used to.

Yup. Very good point - and one we'll have to deal with well.

Originally Posted by greenlemonade

Constructive criticism for "Action" mode:

1.
Respawn Scale 0.7 to speed up the action a TINY bit


2.
Instead of choosing a respawn point (1. 2. 3. Squad Leader),
Auto spawn on Squad Leader if available and random if hes not.
I don't think casual players in action care too much about spawn control.


3.
Seeing teammates full names displayed over their heads at extreme distances is aesthetically unappealing and confusing. http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...23304CF947FF4/

Instead, names should be displayed when up close and in crosshair.
At all distances, a small emblem (similar to the honor rank) should be displayed over teammates' heads. It should indicate the players squad role and be white for the players squad leader and green for the rest of his squad. Black for all other teammates. Above all, it should be very small, but informative.

This will clean the game up visually but still accomplish the goal of "normal" modes' display which is preventing friendly fire and encouraging teamwork.


4. Stamina recovery speed scale 1.3
Also to speed up gameplay a tiny bit.


That's all for now. I hope it works well. Right now all "normal" realism seems to do is make the HUD cluttered.

Useful feedback. Ta.

Originally Posted by I. Kant

There was no update for the Action mode; therefore, it had been slipped in with the last update and was needing a server for us to experience it. Little does this prove, save for that when Yosh made the announcement, it had already been in our beta clients.

Correct me if I am wrong.

See my comments about timing above.

Phew... monster post.