Guns, Light and Mobile Artillery

[Carazor]

There was a post by someone a while ago about whether or not there will be Flak guns or something along the line that can counter the armour in the game. IMO I think this will be a good idea (especially the tank-on-tank maps). A truck or halftrack can tow the gun into combat, and from there, it would deploy as a 'vehicle'.

Obviously you would have to code in that there must be at least two guys pushing the gun to get it moving, and some other stuff...

I'm not sure the maps in the game are big enough for deploying Katyushas and the like, but how about mortars? It would seem pretty simple; a extra class in the game would be the mortar-guy (what are they called???) and he would set it up in the field and start firing. I guess the CO can use his binocs to scout targets and run back and somehow communicate to him where to hit. It would be a good way of putting arty in the game without the CO calling in the big guns.

(BTW, how do you move an 88 in the field? Push it, or tow it?)

[Moz]

I would be find with stationary implacements

Some would say it would be easy to take out... but with what? they are freaking anti tank guns, if you get close enough to hit it then it deserves to be destroyed.

[Capmatt]

Towing guns would be interesting. Would need really big maps for that.
The FlaK 18 (THE "88") needed to be towed. You'd need about 20 men to even begin to move one of those. And they took about 10 mins to unlhook and setup to fire.

[Capmatt]

Originally Posted by Moz

I would be find with stationary implacements

Some would say it would be easy to take out... but with what?

Tanks.

[Carazor]

10 minutes? That'll be fun...

Preferably it would only be AT guns and assault guns (some turretless tanks maybe?), as I don't see why a concentrated infantry assault + tanks would have AA with them (not counting the Flak 18).

[Helmut_AUT]

The realism guy in me says "please no". AT Guns weren't really simple - even the smallest 37mm PAK had a crew of 5 people, and was very slow to move around if the crew had to push it and carry the ammo.

Of course you also had at least a minute or more setup time after each transport.

Also, the single thing that made AT Guns very dangerous was their ability to be camoflaqued so that they could get off a few shots. I don't think in-game graphics would allow for this.

On combined arms maps it could theoretically be fun for maps that feature light russian tanks to have a light german AT Gun or two, but realistic tactical useage of these guns requires a bit more knowledge than the average steam-newbie will bring into the game.

As for a mortars - another weapon that would at least require a crew of two (in reality even the small 50mm german mortars had a crew of three). If you give a single guy a mortar and the ability to fire blind, you end up with the same problem as nade-spam - namely that people know in advance (unlike in a real battle) where the enemy is and can just bombard the crap out of those positions.

What I could like to see would be rifle-grenades (they had a basic Anti-Tank function as well as a bit of a "mortar" usage) and hand-thrown AT weapons.

[malice]

http://www.redorchestragame.com/foru...hread.php?t=94

already have a long topic about this. Little old but covers alot of the topic including what role the player would play in using them.

[[CoFR]BooBoo]

Well, the Germans did have the sPzB.41 2.8cm ATG (28/20mm squeezebore). IIRC it was a two-man unit, only requiring the second man for ammo cartage. There was also a special version for airborne troops that weighed 120kg.

[Manstein]

Originally Posted by Carazor

Preferably it would only be AT guns and assault guns (some turretless tanks maybe?)

Assault guns?

http://www.redorchestragame.com/imag...full/stug2.jpg

http://www.redorchestragame.com/imag...icleshoot4.jpg

And they're my fav vehicles too

[Ghad]

Originally Posted by Helmut_AUT

Also, the single thing that made AT Guns very dangerous was their ability to be camoflaqued so that they could get off a few shots. I don't think in-game graphics would allow for this.

On combined arms maps it could theoretically be fun for maps that feature light russian tanks to have a light german AT Gun or two, but realistic tactical useage of these guns requires a bit more knowledge than the average steam-newbie will bring into the game.

Very valid points against putting PAK in the game.

[kapulA]

Originally Posted by Capmatt

And they took about 10 mins to unlhook and setup to fire.

Actually an experinced crew took less then a minute to unhook and deploy to combat position

[Felix Ostheim]

There's still the thought about static positions that could be incorporated into the gameplay of the map, ie. there is a static AT gun at an objective when assaulted and captured by the enemy it becomes useless.

[Helmut_AUT]

Originally Posted by kapulA

Actually an experinced crew took less then a minute to unhook and deploy to combat position

He was talking about an 88...certainly not in less than a minute. That thing is huge and heavy.

[Hyperion2010]

When we can have 128 players on a team, then we can have realitic AT weapons. So just keep hoping that the next game will be able to support at least 256 players at once

[Witzig]

Originally Posted by Hyperion2010

When we can have 128 players on a team, then we can have realitic AT weapons. So just keep hoping that the next game will be able to support at least 256 players at once

Ah, gimme a MMOFPS Version of RO Several thousand Players fighting between Berlin and Moscow

Then we can have Planes AND AT and and and .... /babble on

Okay in 3 to 7 Years perhaps *G* But one may dream

[malice]

These are dingbats comments on AT guns from the other thread.

Originally Posted by DingBat

Woah there. The staff hasn't "killed" anything.

I would like to make it clear that when I participate in discussions I am not wearing my staff hat. I am participating as a person interesting in games, in Red Orchestra specifically, and in making maps for games. I find these discussions interesting and I like to provide a devil's advocate input to make sure the ideas raised are workable.

Please do not interpret my contributions as commitments by the team. I would hate to restrict discussion of anything game related on these boards and if people assume my contributions imply team commitments I would have to discontinue participation. I'd hate that.

Anyway, there are a few fundamental things that reduce the usefulness of anti tank guns in a game like Red Orchestra (at the moment). This is not a comment on the value of at guns, simply recognition of reality.

1. The primary value of anti-tank guns are their small size and ease of concealement. If guns are not movable all of those advantages disappear. Tanks don't fear anti-tank guns when they know where they are.

2. Moving anti-tank guns is clearly not a one man operation, even for the smallest Pak35/36.

3. If we don't want to bother with crew for anti-tank guns, what are the implications, in terms of gameplay, of anti-tank guns that can be operated by one player? For that matter, how do anti-tank guns respawn?

Anti-tank guns work fine in Battlefield 1942, but I don't think anyone believes that same system would fit Red Orchestra.

Anyway, I apologize if anyone got the impression that the team was saying anti-tank guns were "killed".

As for my view on At guns. I would love them in game and I think they could work very well.

basically we have a 2-3 man crew, 2 for firing the gun and a third to move it, slowly move it

Gunner: The gunners job its to shoot the gun and nothing else. Maybe give them an adjustable sighting that needs to be focused and the range needs to be found. Basically you rotate the sight using whatever keys until it comes into focus. Once its in focus you have found the range (say the sight has numbers all around the edge and once its focused the number on the bottem edge is the range). The gunner would contain an head up and head down position, with the head down looking into the sight and getting a zoomed up effect. Would be part of an AT class

Right, left, range adjusters: This means that this person would be moving the gun into the right position. Now just to keep teh arcade factor down the movement would be done with your player movement keys not the mouse and you cant do left right and range at the same time. So you adjust the left and right movement then you adjust the range of the gun but its all done by the same person. This person will still get 3 views. 1. Looking down the sight, 2. there heads up looking at the target and 3. the range meters so they know how far the shells will go. The adjusters would also have a head up and head down position but head would would be looking and a angle meter (if there was on) so to adjust the proper range. Would be part of an AT class

Mover: Now the mover has no part in the other action, in fact he wouldnt even be on the gun at that time. He would be a third player who would only be on the gun when there moving it. However moving it doesnt mean relocating to a who new positions accross the map. Moving more refers to changing the guns direction by say 90 degrees so the AT gun can target tanks coming from another direction. It would be possible to move it across the map but very hard to do and it would move super slow. The AT gun would have a small field of fire and this third player would be there to adjust the field to target more objects. Could be done by any class as no one wants to wait around doing nothing and pushing doesnt required special training. The other two people need to be on the gun at the same time inorder to move it. So the gunner, adjuster and moving would all need to switch into a position where there standing up and then the moving controls where teh gun goes but as soon at someone switches back to there firing position the gun stops moving.


The AT guns would spawn in preset places and there people who select the AT class would spawn at the preplaced guns in the battlefield. These teams could then go right to work covering certain areas. Now how would then gun be damaged or blowen up and respawn. Well as far as I know with AT guns being so small there werent really even hit directly with tank fire. Tanks usually tried to hit the crew using large caliber guns to kill or scare them off. The same would work here, so instead of blowing the gun up, just make the crew die from close shots and have them respawn in the main spawn area (not with the gun). Now should the gun be hit directly I would just replace the model with one that makes teh gun look broken (belt barrel). Then there are two options:

1. The gun with after a set period of time, say 2 or 3 minutes the gun just respawns and is usuable again. Now of course this isnt realistic haveing guns appear in good firing positions in the battle field.

2. The gun respawns just like the old one but in a position near the old one but not setup to fire. So you would need the 3 people to all work together to get the gun back into position. However the old gun is still there and broken so you wouldnt be able to take the exact same spot.

3. Assuming its the AT guns are hard to hit and the shells would land around the gun killing the crew but never or rarely hit the gun itself. We could have it setup to never respawn. So once the gun is gone its gone for good. This would only work if the crews died from indirect hits and it is infact hard to hit the gun itself since its so small.

[Witzig]

Originally Posted by malice

Now how would then gun be damaged or blowen up and respawn. Well as far as I know with AT guns being so small there werent really even hit directly with tank fire. Tanks usually tried to hit the crew using large caliber guns to kill or scare them off. The same would work here, so instead of blowing the gun up, just make the crew die from close shots and have them respawn in the main spawn area (not with the gun). Now should the gun be hit directly I would just replace the model with one that makes teh gun look broken (belt barrel). Then there are two options:

You are correct in the Tiger Fibel it is advies to use Sprengranaten ohne Verzögerung (HE/Frag Rounds without delay) against Emplacements and AT Guns, which created a Deadly Area of about 20 Meters to the left and to the right, of the point of Impact and 10 Meters forward of the point of impact (apparently less Fragmentation flew back in the direction of the Tiger).

[kapulA]

Originally Posted by Helmut_AUT

He was talking about an 88...certainly not in less than a minute. That thing is huge and heavy.

I know,I am talking about an 88 too mate
I read it in a WW 2 book,cant rember the name,and I even saw and video of the crew doing that

[Carazor]

Actually, yeah I wasn't suggesting that a single man run up to a Pak37 and start shooting...I said it could be done like a tank, where a second "position" would be spotter, etc.

IMO, a static AT gun in RO would be pretty pointless, since everything likes to displace after every 2 seconds.

BTW..a MMOFPS already exists. Check out PlanetSide (my friend plays Core Combat, and I have to say, it's great to literally have that many people fighting at once; it feels like a real battle )

[Witzig]

Originally Posted by Carazor

BTW..a MMOFPS already exists. Check out PlanetSide (my friend plays Core Combat, and I have to say, it's great to literally have that many people fighting at once; it feels like a real battle )

There is also a MMOFPS with WWII setting (WWIIOL) but the graphic is really not anywhere near RO (the mod). And the time to battle is under certain circumstances a bit toooooo long.