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Old 01-08-2012, 11:03 AM
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Mekhazzio Mekhazzio is offline
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Default Leading for ping is ridiculous, Mk.2: An Example

The networking model in RO2, or more specifically, its lack of latency compensation, has been a common topic on these forums. Every time it comes up, there's always several people who say they don't notice any problem. If you don't know what to look for, that's fairly understandable. In a fast-paced game, it's easy to chalk it up to simply missing, or perhaps vastly overestimating bullet time of flight. Others point the finger at what would be a more visible flaw, such as bugs in the damage model or hit detection.

Tripwire has dutifully investigated those bug reports multiple times since the game's release, and each time, they can't find a problem. Only, those bug reports keep coming in. There's obviously a problem, except it's not a bug, and it's not in damage or hit detection. It's a fundamental design flaw of the networking model itself, which becomes clear with some analysis.

So here's just one possible example out of many, in gory detail (1 MB image):



The networking model drastically alters every shot made at a moving target. This target was running almost directly at me, with barely any lateral motion at all, and it's still enough to turn an almost perfect heart shot into what only narrowly avoids being a complete miss.

Instead of traveling at 865 meters per second, my Mosin-Nagant shot had an effective speed of less than 100 meters per second. It's not realistic, it's not accurate, and giving movement such a huge artificial advantage is not good for gameplay either.

Last edited by Mekhazzio; 01-08-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:18 AM
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Nice analysis, and it also answers my doubt why I haven't seem to have experienced the often criticised "hit detection problems" (other than the due to obvious hit box problems related to the cover system), simply because I play on servers where I have a ping of around 100 (max, often less), so my shots will hit more closer to what I am aiming at (though probably still somewhat skewed).
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:31 AM
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Yeah, lower pings mitigate the problem, but nothing can cure it entirely. It exists in a small amount even on a LAN connection and its sub-1ms network travel time, thanks to the server tick rate delay. It's just inherent to the design. That's why virtually all multiplayer action games use some sort of latency compensation method.

"Play on a server with a better ping" is, unfortunately, not a viable option with a niche game like RO2. For the last several months, there has been just one server with a consistent population on my entire continent. It's on the Atlantic coast, I'm on the Pacific coast. That's not a recipe for blazing connections.

It's also not the real source of the problem, anyway. Almost every other FPS ever made will eat 150-200ms for breakfast, and most can smoothly handle two, three, or even six times that much latency. The RO series is special in this regard, and not the good kind of special.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:41 AM
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Excellent post, hopefully it will enlighten many other players to this serious flaw that has plagued the game since its release.

I can think of no logical reason as to why TWI has not switched to a more consistent hit-resolving system, such as client side hit detection. Client side hit detection would improve the game drastically in my opinion. While many will argue (and have argued) that the client side system causes "I just got to cover, wtf?" deaths, which it does, I would argue that a few of these slightly annoying but easily explained deaths are well worth the tremendous increase in consistency.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:10 PM
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Really good post.

While I don't like how 'lag compensation' (or whatever you want to call it) is implemented in some (DICE) games, there's clearly an issue here that's detrimental to play.

I'm finding increasing numbers of players running across the open without fear and lamers zig-zagging to bayo you so that close range (lack of) hit detection means you can't even hit them with an SMG.

Don't know what the right solution is, but it's not good as it is.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:26 PM
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+1 OP, and props on the gif, it worked great in explaining the issue.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:40 PM
RAF_Pstyle RAF_Pstyle is offline
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I usually stick to just one or two servers where I get pings of 50 to 80. There are times when I'm pretty sure i dodge a bullet just because my ping is good, and not because I have uberskills.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:43 PM
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Mekhazzio, this has been talked to death. You should know that lag compensation is good for intercontinental play. But makes for a load of unpredictable gameplay for all, aka: Shot past corners, shot only registering on client side, etc.

TWI is also known for it's stand on this, they do not want it. But please, all means just continue your discussion.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:17 PM
LordKhaine LordKhaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaltehook View Post
I can think of no logical reason as to why TWI has not switched to a more consistent hit-resolving system, such as client side hit detection. Client side hit detection would improve the game drastically in my opinion.
I'm sorry, but the moment you mention client side hit detection you frankly have no place talking to anyone about hit detection. Seriously, think about it for a second. Especially with regard to security...

There are a few ways to deal with latency, but they are all server side. Frankly I don't see the hit detection changing in RO2, since it would be a huge change to make.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:21 PM
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Argh, please stop them from ignoring this.

Why can't they force a default tick-rate to be better on servers, it will take more CPU but this is affecting gameplay drastically and that's important :\.

Epsecially after they've fixed the random CPU high usage issue, they should improve the tick-rate.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:46 PM
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Honestly, I have 160ping on even local servers sadly, and I have to lead my shots up to like 5m before I get a hit.

The way I fix this? I play the MGer, so about 12 bullets per person normally ensures a kill.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:55 PM
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Anyone who zig-zags understands the network latency mechanic, or at least the practical results of it, which is why we do it. Irregular changes in movement make you progressively harder to hit the closer you are to your intended bayonet warmer because the ping-compensation target lead distance becomes more and more dramatic; at greater distances the lead variance is far smaller thus the chance of me getting pegged 'by accident' increase.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defektive View Post
Anyone who zig-zags understands the network latency mechanic, or at least the practical results of it, which is why we do it. Irregular changes in movement make you progressively harder to hit the closer you are to your intended bayonet warmer because the ping-compensation target lead distance becomes more and more dramatic; at greater distances the lead variance is far smaller thus the chance of me getting pegged 'by accident' increase.
but we're "lamers" for using this obvious tactic to avoid getting shot. LOL! it's not like guys ran in straight lines to get shot in real life.

i really wish this leading for ping stuff wasn't a problem but i have noticed it plent of times as well. i just don't know if the solution would be better or worse. i'm just going to have to trust tripwire to make the right decision. they have the most to lose if this doesn't get fixed!

one thing i don't understand, you have one group saying leading for ping is killing the game and another saying the rifles are lazer guided and over-powered. are they just the lucky ones that have all the good populated servers with tiny pings?
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:18 PM
Garcia2100 Garcia2100 is offline
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Nice post man. It's annoying, and this was you shooting at a targets biggest point, it's center at close range. I'm sure we all tried to hit a guy with a bolt from long range while he is running, it's frustration to see bullets kick up dirt a feet behind him. That's why i sometimes just pick MG and spray 15 rounds infront of him in a line so that he runs into them. After a couple of minutes playing like this i realize what the he'll I'm doing and just close the game and play something else...
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:30 PM
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Very true thing mentioned here. My problem is mostly that I aim and fire at somebody coming straight at me, even with a good ping (40ms) I often seem to miss. But the target hasn't moved to the left or right just forward towards me.


Best thing: I'm shooting at someone, aiming for the center of his chest and I see blood spurts acknowledging a hit BUT he keeps on running or stops to start aiming at me. The second shot is fired as soon I rebolted and again blood spurts. The enemy is still on his feet. Not even seconds later I'm dead. How come, both the other player and I had decent pings. I had confirmation twice I hit him.


I believe it there's something basically wrong with the hitdetection. I just do wonder why RO Ostfront has a good hitdetection and its sequel's performance is really bad on this sector.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekhazzio View Post
Almost every other FPS ever made will eat 150-200ms for breakfast, and most can smoothly handle two, three, or even six times that much latency.
I consider 150 - 200ms ping obscenely high. Even when I'm at 80 ping, I'm thinking: 'damn, I should leave this server'. When you say there are games where you have no problem shooting people with 200ms ping, I senserely doubt people are able to shoot you / get shot by you without encountering major inconsistensies.

I'm not saying it's your fault you have high ping, I'm just saying that you should take the consequences for playing with high ping.

That being said, it may very well be possible to improve the network model of RO2, but UT network modeling is still the best for me. Ive seen far worse in DICE games for example, compensating the sh*t out of shots with ill effects.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekhazzio View Post
The networking model in RO2, or more specifically, its lack of latency compensation, has been a common topic on these forums. Every time it comes up, there's always several people who say they don't notice any problem. If you don't know what to look for, that's fairly understandable. In a fast-paced game, it's easy to chalk it up to simply missing, or perhaps vastly overestimating bullet time of flight. Others point the finger at what would be a more visible flaw, such as bugs in the damage model or hit detection.

Tripwire has dutifully investigated those bug reports multiple times since the game's release, and each time, they can't find a problem. Only, those bug reports keep coming in. There's obviously a problem, except it's not a bug, and it's not in damage or hit detection. It's a fundamental design flaw of the networking model itself, which becomes clear with some analysis.

So here's just one possible example out of many, in gory detail (1 MB image):



The networking model drastically alters every shot made at a moving target. This target was running almost directly at me, with barely any lateral motion at all, and it's still enough to turn an almost perfect heart shot into what only narrowly avoids being a complete miss.

Instead of traveling at 865 meters per second, my Mosin-Nagant shot had an effective speed of less than 100 meters per second. It's not realistic, it's not accurate, and giving movement such a huge artificial advantage is not good for gameplay either.
*emphatically stamps post with personal approval*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaltehook View Post
I can think of no logical reason as to why TWI has not switched to a more consistent hit-resolving system, such as client side hit detection.
I can offer one big reason. Ramm Jaeger has been in charge of designing the net code for RO2 and he is absolutely 100% against lag compensation. We've had this discussion before on the forums more than a year ago. If I can find the thread, I'll post it here. Perhaps someone else here can find it, though there are hardly any members LEFT that existed on this forum more than a year ago (gee, I wonder why?) so that could be too much to ask.
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Last edited by hockeywarrior; 01-08-2012 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeywarrior View Post
*emphatically stamps post with personal approval*
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekhazzio View Post
The networking model in RO2, or more specifically, its lack of latency compensation, has been a common topic on these forums. Every time it comes up, there's always several people who say they don't notice any problem. If you don't know what to look for, that's fairly understandable. In a fast-paced game, it's easy to chalk it up to simply missing, or perhaps vastly overestimating bullet time of flight. Others point the finger at what would be a more visible flaw, such as bugs in the damage model or hit detection.

Tripwire has dutifully investigated those bug reports multiple times since the game's release, and each time, they can't find a problem. Only, those bug reports keep coming in. There's obviously a problem, except it's not a bug, and it's not in damage or hit detection. It's a fundamental design flaw of the networking model itself, which becomes clear with some analysis.

So here's just one possible example out of many, in gory detail (1 MB image):



The networking model drastically alters every shot made at a moving target. This target was running almost directly at me, with barely any lateral motion at all, and it's still enough to turn an almost perfect heart shot into what only narrowly avoids being a complete miss.

Instead of traveling at 865 meters per second, my Mosin-Nagant shot had an effective speed of less than 100 meters per second. It's not realistic, it's not accurate, and giving movement such a huge artificial advantage is not good for gameplay either.

*Colt .45 Killer's stamp of approval*
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:19 PM
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I rarely post here these days since I haven't touched RO2 for quite some time. This thread highlights one of the many reasons why I haven't touched RO2 for quite some time.

Just wanted to say good job on demonstrating a good example of this ridiculous.. er.. feature..

+1 for you mate.
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